Nazi Germany has nukes in July 1941

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by Anti-GrammarNazi, Jan 2, 2014.

  1. Anti-GrammarNazi Well-Known Member

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    Okay this is my first post here guys, so greetings.

    So here is something I have been wondering:

    Imagine Germany could get Nukes in 1941, assume it is capable of creating 1 nuke per month.

    How does this change the war?
     
  2. asnys Do Not Fear the Future

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    First, welcome to the board.

    We've gone over this a lot. The problem is it's just about impossible for Nazi Germany to be able to produce an atomic weapon in 1941, or ever, without major, deep changes in history, changes which will have greater effects than the bombs themselves.

    Also, if I recall correctly, Germany didn't have an airplane capable of carrying a massive first-generation atomic bomb...
     
  3. Mike Stearns Member

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    Others can give you more details than I can, but there's no way that the Germans are putting out a nuke a month in 1941. The German atomic bomb project was going in completely the wrong direction. The Nazis' racial ideology had also barred the German atomic bomb team from taking advantage of key breakthroughs in nuclear physics because they were made by Jews and Slavs. The Nazis also drove many of Europe's top physists into the arms of the Allies for the same reasons and the ones who had been unable to leave were arrested and/or killed.

    Having said that, if the Nazis had a working atomic bomb in 1941 and a way to deliver it, it would have changed everything.
     
  4. Anti-GrammarNazi Well-Known Member

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    I understand, but assuming they could have pulled it off. What would the effects be?
     
  5. Kung Fucious Groucho Marxist

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    The problem is is that it's not Alternate History (counter-factual history based on what could realistically happen), it's ASB (Alien Space Bats, aka "Not gonna happen"). Sure, it's fun to play "what if" and faff about with some story where Germany gets nukes or something, but it's outside the realm of possibility and belongs squarely in the "fiction" department.
     
  6. Anti-GrammarNazi Well-Known Member

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    Is it completely impossible under ANY circumstance for Germany to have developed nuclear weapons even at the late stages of the war? Even if for example, rather than starting WWII Germany focused the 100% of her efforts in developing nukes and only THEN expand?

    In hindsight making nukes is not that difficult. In fact I was surprised because I investigated, I am from Mexico and to my surprise it seems overwhelmingly that if we wanted we could develop nuclear weapons, even if we depended on our own resources and no international help to do it.

    Now, not to diss my own country but we are far and away from being a Great Power like Germany was during WWII, so if we can make nukes, I fail to see why Germany can´t.
     
  7. Kung Fucious Groucho Marxist

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    Sure, not impossible under ANY circumstances, but it's closer to impossible than possible. Furthermore, if Germany had gone all in on building a nuclear weapon in lieu of kicking off WW2, than were talking about a VERY different Germany, with a POD somewhere back in the 1800's.

    It's one thing to build a nuke in 2014, where a quick Wikipedia search leads you to everything you'd ever want to know about building even the most rudimentary of nuclear weapons. Flashback 73 years and it's a whole different ball game. At that point in time a Nuclear weapon was entirely academic, they had barely worked out the physics to prove it. Moreover, the science was hotly debated, and a sizable portion of academia ruled it an impossibility. On top of that, the German nuclear team was underfunded, a bureaucratic nightmare, and was expressly forbidden from utilizing any "Jewish" science. Add all that together and you've got a recipe for a lot of things, but a functioning Nuclear Weapon ain't one of them.
     
  8. Anti-GrammarNazi Well-Known Member

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    I see. What do you think was Germany's greatest weapon? Both realistically and potentially.

    Suppossedly they had the Wunderaffe but they were not feasible.
     
  9. wcv215 Well-Known Member

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    Well not impossible, but they would have to be basically a completely different country to get them. By the end of the war the German team had come to the conclusion that the atomic bomb was impossible because they didn't think there was enough uranium to build one. In addition their main enriching plant had been destroyed and they needed all their resources just to maintain industrial output to keep the war going. If they concentrate 100% of their efforts on developing nukes their enemies crush them without much of a fight because they are not an ultimate weapon by themselves.

    Yeah, that's a major misconception. Nazi Germany was one of the most inefficient places ever. There's a reason that the UK alone (not counting the Empire) outproduced them in everything but small arms every year but 1944. When combined with just how much was wasted on the so-called "Wunderwaffen" (the V-2 alone took as much money as the American atomic bomb project, yet only managed to kill about two people per missile) the odds of Germany managing to build an atomic bomb without accidentally bankrupting themselves are not good.

    Umm...
    ...
    ...
    The Panzer IV I guess, but it was too overly complicated and took too long to build to be considered much of an ultimate weapon.
     
  10. Cook Real friends stab you in the front.

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    In hindsight neither is radar, or penicillin, radio, nitro glycerine, powered flight, steel, electricity, steam engines, spring powered clocks, celestial navigation, gunpowder, hay, bronze, the catapult, the bow and arrow, writing, agriculture, fire, flint axes...
     
  11. asnys Do Not Fear the Future

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    In addition to what Kung Fucious said, we've had 70 years to develop uranium enrichment technology to a much more efficient state. And uranium is much more available, because people have actually gone looking to find it, whereas they largely hadn't in the '40s. And economies are larger these days.

    Nerve gas.

    Not that it would win them the war or anything. But it's the closest thing they have to an atom bomb.
     
  12. ObssesedNuker Commander of 10 million men

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    If you want to just magically give Germany some first generation nuclear weapons in July of 1941, you could go to the ASB forum and ask there...
     
  13. Imladrik àbatter d'r Gambrinüs

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    Germany was not a great power during WWII, it was a powerful regional power with delusion of grandeur and insane luck, with all that implies (ie, foreign science was considered inferior, no access to a lot of ressource, insane management).

    MG42, Stug III and panzerfausts.

    The first one gave german infantry a great tactical advantage over enemy infantry. The Stug was cheap enough to be produced in large number in the clusterfuck that was the german tank industry and still an efficient tank. Panzerfaust gave infantry a cheap and efficient way to deal with allied tanks in the late war.
     
  14. sharlin Banned

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    Regarding the Nazi's going in the wrong direction with their nuclear programme, what were they actually doing wrong?
     
  15. La Spezia Well-Known Member

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    If ASB happened to give nukes to the Nazis in 1941, I'm sure Operation Vegetarian would have been deployed by the British.
     
  16. Perkeo Well-Known Member

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    The second reason is more important than the first: Many scientists left Germany, but plenty of good scientists stayed. So all the Nazis would have had to do is let the scientists refrain from saying aloud that a finding originated from a jew or slaw rather than forbidding to use that finding at all. Doesn't seem that hard to me.

    The logisitcs and the cost of a German Manhattan project is a hard nut to crack, but since von Braun successfully completed a task that wasn't that much smaller, it's not quie ASB.

    But how to accomplish this as early as 1941 ???

    And how do the Germans prevent [edit] allies espionage?[/edit]

    Not quite everything: Sowjet casualties WERE in the order of magnitude of one Hiroshima or Nagasaki per month, even without nukes. The strategic advantage of building a bomb that is 10.000 times more deadly, but also 10.000 times more expensive, than a conventional one is overstated.

    So to change the cause of WWII you really need to
    - give Hitler the Bomb as early as 1941,
    - prevent a faster Manhattan Project due to allied espionage and
    - prevent the Germans running out of uranium after a couple of nukes.

    So as I already said in earlier threads: None of the scenario's requirements is necessarily ASB, but the combination of them is.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2014
  17. Pomphis Well-Known Member

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    Plus the germans need a B-29 or will only be able to plant nuclear mines or deliver them by submarine near enemy ports.
     
  18. Perkeo Well-Known Member

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    Even IOTL, the Heinkel He 177 was capable of carrying the weight of Little Boy or Fat Man, so delivery shoudn't be an insoluable problem.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2014
  19. Lindseyman Am I a Northerner? I think that I am!

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    Assuming its engines didn't catch fire! Now the 277 and 274 with 4 engines fine but then that needs yet another POD with regards to bomber development and we've gone beyond ASB.
     
  20. The Red A virulent, ignorant bigot

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    The Manhattan Project cost around $80 Billion in today's money, as Germany was already throwing herself into huge debt attempting to re-arm and increase the German standard of living, debt's they plan to pay with by a loot and extort policy in eastern Europe and western Russia. If in 1939 they decide not to go to war but to focus all their resources on the bomb then, yes, they can get somwhere, but the money runs out before they reach completion.