Napoleon-Why the hate?

scholar

Banned
Destroying it and replacing it with self-serving autocracy...decisions, decisions. Can I just side with the opponents of both?
Destroying a corrupt regime that was murdering tens of thousands of their own people under the guise of protecting democracy, as well as declaring wars against all non-republican governments, and by that they of course meant corrupt oligarchies that were almost completely dependent upon France for their very survival as the nobility and mercantile class just replaced their monarchs with their own oligarchical form of government and the replacing it with a stable, relatively liberal government where power was held by one man, but a talented individual who kept his people safe and ended a decade long period of nothing less than grotesque murder and civil strife is somehow bad?

/long sentence.

The French Government under Napoleon was not tyrannical.
 
Destroying a corrupt regime that was murdering tens of thousands of their own people under the guise of protecting democracy, as well as declaring wars against all non-republican governments, and by that they of course meant corrupt oligarchies that were almost completely dependent upon France for their very survival as the nobility and mercantile class just replaced their monarchs with their own oligarchical form of government and the replacing it with a stable, relatively liberal government where power was held by one man, but a talented individual who kept his people safe and ended a decade long period of nothing less than grotesque murder and civil strife is somehow bad?

/long sentence.

So instead, we get a corrupt realm that was lead by someone who desired to impose his wishes on all of Europe, which was liberal in no sense, who sent his people into war for almost two decades at great cost?

France was only safe by virtue of making the rest of Europe unsafe, under Napoleon, and that's the good side.

The French Government under Napoleon was not tyrannical.
Show me a way that Napoleon was subject to any limitations on his power compared to Louis (who is a good example of an absolute monarch in action - take that as you will), and I will consider it less than tyrannical.

Sure, the Napoleonic Code has some great points, but Napoleon himself, and his own rule, not so much. And trying to impose French rule outside France is definitely not an act of a liberty-lover.
 

scholar

Banned
So instead, we get a corrupt realm that was lead by someone who desired to impose his wishes on all of Europe, which was liberal in no sense, who sent his people into war for almost two decades at great cost?
Are you talking about the British? I can't really tell at this point.

You're asking me to decide between two things I'd want brought down.
I'm asking you to choose between murder in the street, terrorism, justice of the mob, suppression of free thought, outright murder of any political opponents of 'democracy' or stability, freedom of expression, justice of the law, and the security of your basic livelihood.

Napoleon may have rewarded the nobility in many places and put his own family in the place of other monarchs, he may have controlled or at least directly influenced the media, but he was most decidedly far better than any monarch before him, and any ruler (implying autocracy) after him in France.
 
Are you talking about the British? I can't really tell at this point.

No, I'm talking about the man whose armies marched from Spain to Russia in pursuit of power.

Napoleon was a threat to the rest of Europe, Britain was not - and I'm saying this as someone who considers the balance of power ideology to be a clever phrase for divide and render irrelevant.

I'm asking you to choose between murder in the street, terrorism, justice of the mob, suppression of free thought, outright murder of any political opponents of 'democracy' or stability, freedom of expression, justice of the law, and the security of your basic livelihood.

I chose "Neither."

I find your statement on Louis XVI as offering a rather more appealing alternative than either He Who Would be Emperor of Europe or the Malocracy of the Terror.

Napoleon may have rewarded the nobility in many places and put his own family in the place of other monarchs, he may have controlled or at least directly influenced the media, but he was most decidedly far better than any monarch before him, and any ruler (implying autocracy) after him in France.
Far better for who? Not those suffering from the burden of his wars.
 
There's two strains of thought here, there's people judging him in historical context and there's people judging him by the standards we would hold a modern person to. This is not something that's automatically wrong, just something people should be aware that they're doing.

As far as historical context goes, he was a talented administrative and tactical mind; his military tactics were to some extent predictable once people became adjusted to them, but that does not decrease their general levels of success. He was able to wash away a brutal regime and replace it with a functioning one that did not victimise its own subjects. He produced a legal code that lasted well after his death and that continues to be the foundation of modern law in many states. He was obsessed with glory on the battlefield and being at the head of it, but unlike the rest of his peers he was able to back up his rhetoric. He was ambitious in a time that produced ambitious men. And by ancient standards he was effective, relatively humble, and achieved great things.

As far as I would personally judge a human being, he was vainglorious, childish and neurotic. He thought nothing of causing wars that devastated the manpower of France, and those of foreign countries, and the destruction caused to civilians. He helped codify the modern image of the nation-state, which in turn is responsible for the use of nationalism in the cause of excess, cultural emasculation, and wholesale slaughter. He was a poor lover (which doesn't make him morally bad but is something I would still find objectionable), stubborn, and scheming. He was unable to adjust to what would be some of the most important social and technological changes of the next century, he was without natural loyalties except to himself and perhaps to France, and all in all he was egotistical in a way that most would find horrifying.

As a historian, he is generally an admirable figure. But there are few historically admirable figures that any of us would actually like.
 
Sure, the Napoleonic Code has some great points.

I would argue that it is one of the most important documents of modern history, but then most of the ground work was started in the 1770`s. And it should be mention that some parts would not have been in it whit out the ideals of the revolution (not containing provisions against religious crimes or same-sex sexual acts, forbidding privileges based on birth, allowing freedom of religion, that government jobs be awarded based on merit etc). One could look at what the other kids in Europa did at the time when i came to lawmaking, and shouder (just look at the Prussian ALR whit its over 19.000 articles)
 
There's two strains of thought here, there's people judging him in historical context and there's people judging him by the standards we would hold a modern person to. This is not something that's automatically wrong, just something people should be aware that they're doing.

I may be judging him in part by modern standards, but I'm all judging him by "Is this guy likely to be dangerous and harmful, or is he likely to be largely ineffectual at doing so at worst?"

France was worse off in 1815 than 1800 thanks to Napoleon, not necessarily by intent but certainly as a consequence. As a historian, I cannot consider that a good thing.

And the standard ruler being flawed (along with most historical figures) really doesn't excuse Napoleon's own flaws. Isn't the whole idea of the Enlightenment that we can expect better than that?

I would argue that it is one of the most important documents of modern history, but then most of the ground work was started in the 1770`s. And it should be mention that some parts would not have been in it whit out the ideals of the revolution (not containing provisions against religious crimes or same-sex sexual acts, forbidding privileges based on birth, allowing freedom of religion, that government jobs be awarded based on merit etc). One could look at what the other kids in Europa did at the time when i came to lawmaking, and shouder (just look at the Prussian ALR whit its over 19.000 articles)

If your standard of comparison is Prussia, any stab at anything other than autocracy looks good by definition.

Not to dispute what you're saying entirely, but it ought to be noted.
 

scholar

Banned
Napoleon made peace with Britain, Britain violated the terms of that peace and in response declared war on France for actions such as founding Switzerland (which wasn't against their treaty). Napoleon didn't start a single war with any coalition after he became Emperor. All of his wars were to contain British influence on the continent, the people actively trying to destroy him and the threat he posed to British influence on the continent. His Peninsular War and the Russian campaign were done so for this reason. He had no desire to be 'Emperor of Europe', and I find it extraordinarily unsettling that you cannot give me a straight answer in regards to which you would rather live under. Neither isn't an answer, its avoiding a choice.
 
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Napoleon made peace with Britain, Britain violated the terms of that peace and in response declared war on France for actions such as founding Switzerland (which wasn't against their treaty). Napoleon didn't start a single war with any coalition after he became Emperor. All of his wars were to contain British influence on the continent. His Peninsular War and the Russian campaign were done so for this reason. He had no desire to be 'Emperor of Europe', and I find it extraordinarily unsettling that you cannot give me a straight answer in regards to which you would rather live under. Neither isn't an answer, its avoiding a choice.

All his wars were to expand French influence on the continent. Had Napoleon not been out for expansion and furthering his glory and power, those wars would not have happened. If he was content with pre-war France, he had the option of pursuing that in exchange for peace, instead of "France+" or well, what we see in 1814 and 1815.

And neither is an answer: I can and do choose to reject both, because if I was in this period, I'd probably be a royalist (despite disliking the Bourbon dynasty, I dislike the Republic more).

So I'd pick exile, if I was French.
 
If your standard of comparison is Prussia, any stab at anything other than autocracy looks good by definition.

Not to dispute what you're saying entirely, but it ought to be noted.

The comparison was between the code civil and the ALR (Allgemeines Landrecht für die Preußischen Staaten), two civil codes for major European states that came out at roughly the same time. They are usually compared in legal history as the prussian code was a more orthodox legal code for the period. It was not meant to be a general comparison of the french and prussian stat at the time.
 
The comparison was between the code civil and the ALR (Allgemeines Landrecht für die Preußischen Staaten), two civil codes for major European states that came out at roughly the same time. They are usually compared in legal history as the prussian code was a more orthodox legal code for the period. It was not meant to be a general comparison of the french and prussian stat at the time.

Fair enough.

Although since you mentioned 19,000 articles - how exactly does that compare to the Code?

I don't know legal history in as much as depth as I'd like.
 

scholar

Banned
All his wars were to expand French influence on the continent. Had Napoleon not been out for expansion and furthering his glory and power, those wars would not have happened. If he was content with pre-war France, he had the option of pursuing that in exchange for peace, instead of "France+" or well, what we see in 1814 and 1815.

And neither is an answer: I can and do choose to reject both, because if I was in this period, I'd probably be a royalist (despite disliking the Bourbon dynasty, I dislike the Republic more).

So I'd pick exile, if I was French.
Name a war that was "Napoleon's war" that is neither the Peninsular Campaign nor the Russian Campaign.

It doesn't matter who you are, what your ideals are, or what party you belong to. I am asking you which of two options would you prefer to live under. "Neither" doesn't answer the question of which of the two options would you prefer to live under. The only reasonable conclusion is that you'll commit suicide if you had to choose and no other option is available. Exile is not an option.
 
Name a war that was "Napoleon's war" that is neither the Peninsular Campaign nor the Russian Campaign.

Every war that ended with Napoleon expanding France or areas under his control if not technically France?

Had Napoleon been content to not pose a threat, you wouldn't see the coalitions trying to bring him down, for the same reason you didn't see coalitions trying to bring down Louis XVI.

It doesn't matter who you are, what your ideals are, or what party you belong to. I am asking you which of two options would you prefer to live under. "Neither" doesn't answer the question of which of the two options would you prefer to live under. The only reasonable conclusion is that you'll commit suicide if you had to choose and no other option is available. Exile is not an option.
This is a situation with so little resemblance to the reality I'd be choosing in that answering would mean nothing.

So again: I choose neither, because the only reasonable conclusion that you're deliberately eliminating options that a reasonable person could advocate in order to treat this as if Napoleon is the only alternative to the Terror.
 
Fair enough.

Although since you mentioned 19,000 articles - how exactly does that compare to the Code?

I don't know legal history in as much as depth as I'd like.

2281 in the original for all five books of the Napoleonic code my professor also stated that one of the major issues whit the Prussian one was finding the correct article.., just think about the situation pre computers and whit the standard of education for judges at that time. ( The wording was also much shorter in french one, Paragraph 932 ALR was 9 lines, the french counterpart, 2279, amounts to seven words.)
 
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Around 2300 in the original for all five books of the Napoleonic code, my professor also stated that one of the major issues whit the Prussian one was finding the correct article.., just think about the situation pre computers and whit the standard of education for judges at that time.

Do I have to? :eek:

19,000 articles in and of itself may be okay, but that's a lot of law to keep up with...which has consequences that aren't.
 

scholar

Banned
Name a specific war. You cannot generically name any war that involved French expansion under Napoleon. Name a war where France under Napoleon actively invaded another country because Napoleon had the dream of being Emperor of Europe, that is not the Peninsular War or the Russian Campaign.

Congrats, you are rapidly losing my respect when I used to have a lot for you. You did not answer my question. And the answer is no, I would not be happy if you suddenly answered me with a straight answer. I wouldn't have even have cared if you chose Robespierre's hell as soon as I posed the question. In fact I may have respected you a bit more than I did at the time, even if I would have thought you were completely insane. No I'm not deliberately eliminating other options, there were never any other options in the first place. I asked you, very specifically, which would you rather live in.
 
People don't hate Napoleon as I understand it. Most people revere him as a brilliant general, overlooking the reality that he lost his wars and when he went for his biggest, greatest campaign in the 1812 invasion of Russia, even if one holds to the view that Russian winter killed Napoleon's army that still indicates that the vaunted Corsican's military genius was easy to kill: Just Add Snow. ;):p:D:cool:

But then I've never understood why generals that lose wars are held to be brilliant, and thus everybody wants to be reincarnated Napoleon, but nobody claims to be reincarnated Kutuzov or Wellington. ;):p
 
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