Outstanding drawing of the Tank. I can remember making a model of the tank using a combination for of parts from a T-34 and a Panther in 1-72 scale. Had to scratch build the turret.. Another interesting Design was the Skoda T-26. Then there was a proposal for the PzkpfIVL. It would have had a body that adopted some of the panther body design.
More Panthers instead of Tigers?
- Thread starter Sextus Munatius Piso
- Start date
marathag
Banned
What they really needed was a hybrid MkIII/IV, standardize on that, and build many more of them
The Mk IV Turret Ring is the same size as the Panther. A lighter turret with the L/70 could have been done
It's good enough for all but a few of the LateWar Soviet IS tanks, and reliable enough it could be driven to where it was needed, rather than shipped by train everywhere.
The Mk IV Turret Ring is the same size as the Panther. A lighter turret with the L/70 could have been done
It's good enough for all but a few of the LateWar Soviet IS tanks, and reliable enough it could be driven to where it was needed, rather than shipped by train everywhere.
Deleted member 1487
They tried that and it was a dismal failure:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_III/IV
The previous attempt had been the Geschützwagen III/IV, which had serious issues meshing the components.
I think there were more issues than just turret ring size; the overall weight of the new gun pushed it over the limits of what the chassis could handle.
That's where the Nashorn type vehicle would matter if used on a Panther chassis as it would lack the problems of the Geschützwagen III/IV chassis.
marathag
Banned
well, that was just a 1944 paper project, so hard to call it a failure at that point of the war. To me, at least one would have to been built for it to fail
this was closer, but more with the aim of making an actual gun tank rather than both III and IV chassis.
A Mk IV with torsion bars, if nothing else. pick one design, and make lots of them
The Brit Challenger did the 17 pdr on the same 1650mm size ring, but added an extra road wheel station for the added weight.
More like that, not looking for a Panther level of protection that led to the 'too much turret for the chassis' when the Germans tried the panther turret on that chassis
The Panther mantlet alone weighed near as much as the entire KwK 40 gun used on the regular Mk IV
I'm looking more a move to what the US TDs(and postwar AMX-13), reliable, very mobile lighter weight tanks with a hard hitting main gun.
They needed numbers and reliability.
By late 1942, unless there was at least effectively 3.5" of armor protection from both thickness and slope, you were going to be penetrated at under 1000 yards.
So why bother with that weight of armor that won't protect you? Have some breakthru tanks with heavy armor, but have tanks that can exploit and move rapidly without breakdowns.
Wasn't the problem with a copy of the T34 by Germany that they couldn't produce the V12 aluminum block engine that gave the T 34 its high speed?
marathag
Banned
Those motors had 70 hour of operation before rebuild at first.
The block of the Maybach HL210 was changed from the original Aluminum to iron so it could be more reliable and bored out for more displacement.
The resulting HL230 weighed more, but more reliable and did 700HP for 1457 cubic inches, 2600 pounds- an almost 800 pound increase, and about a thousand pounds heavier than the Soviet V-2 Diesel of 500 HP for 2368 cubic inches.
The V-2 was slower revving, 1800 rpm vs 3000 for the Maybach
If the Nazis wanted a hot rod, they would have put the HL210 in the Mk IV sized chassis
Now the USA was able to make a reliable Aluminum block that did 500HP, the Ford GAA for 1250 pounds, 400 pounds lighter than the V-2 and being a V-8, physically smaller
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The Mahnovite
Banned
What is the smallest chassis onto which a n88mmm gun could be fitted in a turret ring? I'm basically testing out the feasibility of a lightly armoured tank with a mean gun and good speed.
thaddeus
Donor
wouldn't discount the Hetzer just because of the 75mm gun http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hetzer
what you are describing to build should also be cheap and reliable? which the Hetzer by all accounts was.
Deleted member 1487
thaddeus
Donor
was going with the feasible, OTL vehicles such as Hetzer and Nashorn, etc. not vehicles, which on paper look MUCH better but which might have had their own issues.
Deleted member 1487
Sure; by 1943-44 something more is needed than the Hetzer, though it was a good SP AT system. A 88mm Long on the Panther chassis in a TD set up would have been a great supplement to the Panther, Hetzer, StuG, and Pz IV assuming no Tiger or its derivatives.
How much of the Soviet heavys were a reaction to the Tiger?
Imo, the KV were liable to mechanical problems and less of a problem after the PzIV with 75mm gun turned up.
So what would be the reason to build the IS series if not to "hunt the cats"?
Imo, the KV were liable to mechanical problems and less of a problem after the PzIV with 75mm gun turned up.
So what would be the reason to build the IS series if not to "hunt the cats"?
Deleted member 1487
Not at all IIRC. They were the product of needing heavy breakthrough AFVs. They had the KV before the Germans had the Tiger and the IS series was a replacement for those. The Soviets had the Animal Killers, which were turretless big guns on T-34 and later IS chassis to deal with the Tiger and Panther. The KV though was gone by late 1943 and replaced with the assault guns and IS-1. By early 1944 the IS-2 was in service and equipped with a heavy field gun for taking out field emplacements, but also have the ability to knock out the heavy German tanks if needed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IS_tank_family
Deleted member 1487
French Panhard EBR with 90mm gun
That's not a turreted tank like you requested. The Germans mounted the 88mm L56 on a Pz 38t chassis:
Thanks for the info. But while reading I found that:
So would the Soviets realy brought out the IS typs if the Germans had not done the dead and build the Tiger and Panther?
(Same source from Wiki)
So would the Soviets realy brought out the IS typs if the Germans had not done the dead and build the Tiger and Panther?
marathag
Banned
Asked for smallest chassis, not smallest tracked chassis.
And the EBR actually saw service.
I will raise you for tracked, the M56 Scorpion
As this used the M54 90mm gun, as powerful as the 88mm L/71
Deleted member 1487
I'd need to see that confirmed in another source before I'd totally buy that. Note that that claim did not have a source attached in the article.
The Russian article does seem to confirm that, but I think the Panther would probably trigger the IS series anyway, though the T-34/85 would have been enough to deal with that, along with any Su-series AFVs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SU-152
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SU-122
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SU-85