Maya/Mesoamerican Colonization of the Caribbean

EDIT: Also any chance we may get Barbary Pirates to join in on the privateering action? Have them conquer one of the smaller islands and use it as a base?

Something similar to that actually happened in my first timeline with Moroccan colonization in the Caribbean, though the Moroccans basically blew their ability to co-opt the Natives by declaring their animal husbandry non-halal.

Carib cooperation with the French and English against a Mayan elite/Spanish alliance seems possible. ITTL, the lesser Antilles might end up being a staging point where the European scramble for colonies and Native American rivalries co-opt each other in the pursuit of land and plunder.
 
Something similar to that actually happened in my first timeline with Moroccan colonization in the Caribbean, though the Moroccans basically blew their ability to co-opt the Natives by declaring their animal husbandry non-halal.

Moroccan colonization in the Americas would be a tad interesting and different. I'd suspect that due to distance, any organized group of Muslim pirates would more likely be Moroccan-aligned in name only and seek closer, more reliable diplomatic relations with the native kingdoms, empires and city-states in the area. Perhaps they'd settle somewhere like the Bahamas or the Cayman Islands?

Carib cooperation with the French and English against a Mayan elite/Spanish alliance seems possible. ITTL, the lesser Antilles might end up being a staging point where the European scramble for colonies and Native American rivalries co-opt each other in the pursuit of land and plunder.

That would be dope.
 
Moroccan colonization in the Americas would be a tad interesting and different. I'd suspect that due to distance, any organized group of Muslim pirates would more likely be Moroccan-aligned in name only and seek closer, more reliable diplomatic relations with the native kingdoms, empires and city-states in the area. Perhaps they'd settle somewhere like the Bahamas or the Cayman Islands?

I think the question is, what would it take to draw Muslim pirates to the New World? IOTL they did not have the motivation to act there, or at least did not have the ability to act there once they got the motivation.
 
The thread is veering from it's intended goal of a Mayan POD. Creating multiple PODs across the globe just to make the world conform to your desired conclusion is not interesting.
 
So colonization of the Caribbean may happen if the Mayans have reason to cross it.

One factor I have not really seen brought up is plant domestication. There is a particular species of holly that grows in the subtropical Southern US with the unfortunate name Ilex Vomitoria or Yaupon Holly. It is so called, because southern natives used it in a ceremony where they would consume massive amounts of "tea" made from it and get hopped up on the caffeine it produces. Basically, it's a North American version of mate (also a member of the holly family).

Some small changes in genetics and cultural usage could make it a competitor to regular coffee and tea in a wider TL, and would give a handy trade good for Caribbean sailors to cross the sea for. This might drive colonization of Cuba and even further afield; its natural range is the green zone in Wikipedia but it CAN be grown somewhat further south (I researched this once for a planned TL that may or may not ever get written).

With a product worth sailing for, the larger Caribbean islands could be settled by Mayans planters growing yaupon in the highlands... we could likely see some Mayan and MesoAmerican settlement, if only in the form of "foreign quarters", in the mouths of the major *Southern US rivers.
 
Any privateers in the Caribbean would be able to draw on a number of Native sailors. Sure, they're experienced with different kinds of ships, but their knowledge of navigation and willingness to put out to sea means that English and French privateers could find themselves with largely Native crews-and said crews would be learning all kinds of useful things about European technology, weaponry and culture, which could be useful for their homelands.

Imagine European-Native privateer groups forming small warlord like states in the various ports of the Caribbean. Place such as Florida or Louisiane would be prime areas. In both places, you can shift in and out of small inlets and bays are a dime a dozen in both areas. Going in and out and catching these privateers would be near impossible, especially when there is large numbers of natives to help them hide. Sort of like imagining the Caribbean and Gulf world with a population similar to otl Mexico.

The Caribs - if they still have the same antagonistic relationship with the Taino and presumably the Caribbean-based Maya, might be willing to join the English and French privateers if it means having a technological edge against their enemies.

Now I wonder, in a world where Spain's potential Caribbean holdings are never consolidated before privateers arrive, and faced with native sailors bringing back arms, charts, and allies, if they'll ever come to dominate the Americas to anywhere near the same degree of OTL (if at all).

Mesoamerica, and much of the surrounding areas, would have densely populated, maritime societies with a wider use of metallurgy even after disease takes it's toll (they'll heavily out number nearly every foreigner in the Americas for more than a century at least). With pirate bases in Louisiana, Florida, and the Lesser Antilles frustrating efforts to control the mainland (Louisiana particularly, would strike right at anyone trying to press into central Mexico) and the natives either learning fast or having a ready supply of European allies, anyone trying to control the rim is going to have to cut some major deals. The indigenous polities will have much more weight, not to mention possible "pirate kingdoms" founded by adventurers and escapees. One power may never be able to establish something like the Viceroyalty of New Spain or Peru.

The last Maya kingdom didn't fall until 1697 OTL. Now add the caveat that the Maya are well versed in seamanship. We have the Haida of OTL to see what the potential results could be. They managed to capture several ships and even equip their canoes with swivel-guns. The Maya will be using stronger boats right off the bat and there would be many times more people to boot. This isn't even taking into account the Gulf-Caribbean peoples, who (even with the very first proposed timeline synthesized by @Skallagrim) would match the Haida in capability. The Maya would have a major reputation as pirates in such a TL (heck a Maya term could be coined for their specific brand of piracy).

With Middle America divided along completely different lines, and armed native polities/rebels, the relationship between all the peoples involved in the region will diverge heavily from anything we've seen in OTL. If one European power does happen to bring all of Mesoamerica into their fold in spite of this it could look more like a "Mesoamerican Raj" than a "New Spain." An amalgam of societies with princely state status given to indigenous kingdoms, quilombos, palenques, and the local equivalent of the "Civilized Tribes."

Furthermore, the difficulty of solidifying the Caribbean and it's shore could have some interesting affects on the Andes. With no one allowing the other to stay too long at Panama, attacking the central mountain polities would prove very arduous. Once more riches are known to be found nobody will want the other to have them all. A possible solution/partition could, by sheer chance, leave an Andean "Ethiopia."
So colonization of the Caribbean may happen if the Mayans have reason to cross it.

One factor I have not really seen brought up is plant domestication. There is a particular species of holly that grows in the subtropical Southern US with the unfortunate name Ilex Vomitoria or Yaupon Holly. It is so called, because southern natives used it in a ceremony where they would consume massive amounts of "tea" made from it and get hopped up on the caffeine it produces. Basically, it's a North American version of mate (also a member of the holly family).

Some small changes in genetics and cultural usage could make it a competitor to regular coffee and tea in a wider TL, and would give a handy trade good for Caribbean sailors to cross the sea for. This might drive colonization of Cuba and even further afield; its natural range is the green zone in Wikipedia but it CAN be grown somewhat further south (I researched this once for a planned TL that may or may not ever get written).

With a product worth sailing for, the larger Caribbean islands could be settled by Mayans planters growing yaupon in the highlands... we could likely see some Mayan and MesoAmerican settlement, if only in the form of "foreign quarters", in the mouths of the major *Southern US rivers.
I really like this idea. Caffeinated tea would definitely motivate some Mesoamerican voyagers. It might even help draw in the Gulf Coast slightly earlier, especially if trading the tea without sails leads Mesoamerica and the Caribbean to rely on their imports from Florida, which would have the best of both worlds climate wise.
 
Something similar to that actually happened in my first timeline with Moroccan colonization in the Caribbean, though the Moroccans basically blew their ability to co-opt the Natives by declaring their animal husbandry non-halal.

Carib cooperation with the French and English against a Mayan elite/Spanish alliance seems possible. ITTL, the lesser Antilles might end up being a staging point where the European scramble for colonies and Native American rivalries co-opt each other in the pursuit of land and plunder.

I don't think there would be a scramble, its short-circuited. The connection between faraway lands and profit, gold, colonies etc was all a result of the initial Spanish lottery-win in Mesoamerica. It you don't have that combination of luck and plagues bringing massive riches, Europe continues with the middle ages attitude to faraway places. Depending on butterflies and when your POD is, it'll probably be a more trade-based setup.
 
I don't think there would be a scramble, its short-circuited. The connection between faraway lands and profit, gold, colonies etc was all a result of the initial Spanish lottery-win in Mesoamerica. It you don't have that combination of luck and plagues bringing massive riches, Europe continues with the middle ages attitude to faraway places. Depending on butterflies and when your POD is, it'll probably be a more trade-based setup.

I'm in the belief it'll still exist but to a much lesser degree and less state support. I'd imagine mercenary captains and their companies of European mercenaries being invited by New World rulers to fight in exchange for gold and perhaps even grants of land.
 
The thread is veering from it's intended goal of a Mayan POD. Creating multiple PODs across the globe just to make the world conform to your desired conclusion is not interesting.

It depends. What do you mean? Then again in alt history, effects in the Caribbean will affect the Old World simply through the Spaniards discovering different things once they arrive.

However I agree, I would prefer to talk more and more in depth about the native peoples as opposed to jumping to the Europeans or whatever. I did thins myself in my Abbasid tl where Europe still has yet to be mentioned.
 
the drive to colonize was at heart not a state backed enterprise. I contend that it was based upon a combination of the rise in the post black plague population of Europe and mercantile drives to gain access to the wealth of the east. First Portugal and what was to become Spain post Reconquista had excess population that had no where to go in a society with no industrial base to adsorb them. So the chance to gain wealth and land would have been great draws for this land hungry population. Just because when they arrive there are more urban civilizations does not mean that they will not displace via disease or military action the native population, however the message about their arrival will travel at light speed compared to OTL preparing the larger civilizations of the mainland for the onslaught!!! in reality the disease factor would depend how much contact they have already had with west Africa and if and repeated exposure to unfamiliar diseases had exposed them to the idea of quarantine? something that island or nautical groupings could enforce or at least understand?
 
if say the tech level was at the same level as 1500 west Africa in terms of iron smelting techniques and if they access to the horse and the agricultural package there will be some kind of India/east indies situation? it will be a mess, Spanish conquistador walks ashore from his long boat confronting the semi naked savage, waving his unlit matchlock and miming while speaking slowly 'mighty weapon! submit and live resist and die!!' the native looks at him strangely smiles steps backwards slowly before reaching for something next to his feet in the long grass. Suddenly the native pulls a steel cross bow out and shoots him in the face!?
 
I can see the Maya colonizing Western Cuba, where a less advanced and populous pre-Taino population still lived, but not easily getting much farther and certainly struggling with the aggressive Caribs should they encounter them. Traders would come before conquerors. I think you might even see increasingly Mayanized Taino kingdoms strong enough to absorb Maya colonists. Of course, if we're going to change Maya history politics and society by introducing overseas trade, a large and powerful mainland state might arise...
 
I can see the Maya colonizing Western Cuba, where a less advanced and populous pre-Taino population still lived, but not easily getting much farther and certainly struggling with the aggressive Caribs should they encounter them. Traders would come before conquerors. I think you might even see increasingly Mayanized Taino kingdoms strong enough to absorb Maya colonists. Of course, if we're going to change Maya history politics and society by introducing overseas trade, a large and powerful mainland state might arise...

Is there a clear timeframe for when the Taino arrived there?
 
Is there a clear timeframe for when the Taino arrived there?
Yes there is and it has been fairly well established by archaeological evidence. They arrived at different islands at different times of course. Unfortunately I don't recall the date and I no longer have my notes and books from a Caribbean archaeology class I took. If I recall it was as recently as about 1,500 years ago and much later in Jamaica. Their migration, which was of course from northern South America, is an interesting topic in and of itself.
 
Yes there is and it has been fairly well established by archaeological evidence. They arrived at different islands at different times of course. Unfortunately I don't recall and I no longer have my notes and books from a Caribbean archaeology class I took. If I recall it was as recently as about thousands years ago and even later in Jamaica. Their migration, which was of course from northern South America, is an interesting topic in and of itself.

Well would it be possible for the Maya to beat the Taino there?
 
Well would it be possible for the Maya to beat the Taino there?
Yes, I believe thay if the Maya settled the greater Antilles 2000 to 1500 years ago they would effectively "beat" the taino to settle the land and in any case might not encounter the relatively organized, well populated chiefdoms/kingdoms that would later characterize the islands and which they would have little hope of competing with head on from a distant base of operations. Note that taino society went through hangea of it's own and did not establish tself all at once. Without the disease and technological advantages of the Spanish, the Maya would have a very, very hard time should well rooted taino kingdoms resist. Well, that is, unless they played sides off against each other but even so, just don't see anything short of an Assyrian type empire conquering Cuba and Hispaniola.

Jamaica on the other hand is easy pickings. There is a high chance that with superior seafaring they'd find it in a completely virgin state. Same goes for the Caymans which were never discovered.
 
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the drive to colonize was at heart not a state backed enterprise. I contend that it was based upon a combination of the rise in the post black plague population of Europe and mercantile drives to gain access to the wealth of the east. First Portugal and what was to become Spain post Reconquista had excess population that had no where to go in a society with no industrial base to adsorb them.
The Portuguese colonial drive was very clearly a State backed enterprise. Due to epidemies and the like, they had issues recruiting sailors and often had to use immigrants/foreigners.
 
In this thread (which is fascinating BTW) I've seen several posters suggest this... shall we say Neo-Mayan civilization... would develop quarantine practices which would allow it to endure the onslaught of European-borne diseases. But do we know if the Mayans even knew what a quarantine was? I'm not expert but pretty much all pre-industrial civilizations believed diseases were caused by evil spirits or angry gods. What leads us to believe that the Mayans would recognize that diseases are spread by the movement of people? Maybe they would ban Europeans from their ports, thinking they brought the sickness with them, but that wouldn't be enough once locals carried the pathogens.
 
medieval quarantine was not based on medical realities no idea what the bleeding barber surgeon equivalent would be in Maya some kind of priest? rather it was based on observed reality, ship arrives people get sick, isolate people from ship everyone well ok off you go, don't do that everyone dies (more or less) merchants are realists, these Maya are also mercantile at heart rather than theocratic as they rely on seafaring and trading to survive gather wealth/power rather than military and religious wealth/power
 
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