If they will not meet us on the open sea (a Trent TL)

Saphroneth

Banned
I sense calamity hovering over this.
Have you seen any Monitors? Seaworthiness was never a primary concern for those things, they were literally designed to operate with all but the turret within a few feet of the waterline (and therefore underwater in a moderate sea). Frankly the US is lucky more classes of Monitors didn't turn out all but unable to float, they were working with a very small bouyancy margin.

The OTL Puritan's freeboard was very approximately in the region of two feet. An appropriate freeboard for her length would be more like twenty feet!
Of course, few ships ever met that appropriate freeboard level in the 19th century OTL - it's a rule of thumb from the 20th - but by comparison the 'worryingly low freeboard' HMS Captain had six feet (out of a designed eight and a rule-of-thumb nineteen) and capsized under way, while the HMS Trafalgar (considered low freeboard in her day) had about fifteen feet out of a rule-of-thumb twenty.

ETA: the freeboard rule is that a ship is "fine" if the freeboard is equal to the square root of the length (in feet) times 1.1. For 340 foot ships that means the "target" is 20.2 feet.
Warrior's 420 feet long and has about 24-26 feet freeboard (estimate). That puts her F/sqrt(L) at about 1.25, making her a wonderful ship even in heavy seas. (Her gun ports are lower, but can be sealed in transit.)
 
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It seems that the Americans are very much in a defensive mindset if all they are building are ships that can barely leave their harbors.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Puritan was officially a "sea going ironclad" as was Dictator.

More seriously, that's not all they're planning - I have them pencilled in to build a broadside ironclad frigate or two, it's just hard to tell how good a design it would be (their first design, the New Ironsides, was garbage and TTL they didn't get to see the results of that because she was shelled to bits on the stocks).
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Addendum - I've come across a recent and very detailed post w.r.t. ironclads, but unfortunately it's from someone who's been banned from here and is as such not something I can link to or copy-paste.

I'll try to rewrite it in my own words later, but for now the salient point is that I have probably overestimated the service freeboard and seakeeping of the monitors! (Vanishing angle for Monitor was fifteen degrees - if she heels over 15 degrees she no longer has any righting moment and just rolls over.)
And the problems with fighting them in a seaway - I can categorically state that a Monitor armed with a 15" gun is utterly vulnerable to even an unarmoured sloop in a seaway, because ammunition was passed up through a hatch in the deck with the turret locked in forwards position. If there is white or green water over the deck then opening that hatch is pretty much instantly and dramatically fatal to the monitor. (The 11" rounds were at least small enough that a few of them could be stored as ready ammunition in the turret...)
 

Saphroneth

Banned
All this refers principally to Monitors.

1 - Speed.
Analysis of logs where trials not available. These are maximum service speeds.

Monitor: 6 knots
Passaic class: 5-6 knots, Passaic made 6 and the others did not (rounding?)
Roanoke: 6 knots
Miantonomoh class with Isherwood engines: 6.5 knots
Miantonomoh class with Ericsson engines: 9 knots
Onondaga: 7 knots
Tunxis (Casco class as monitor): 4 knots
Dictator: 9 knots
Canonicus: 6 knots (8 knots trials, variable)

Note that in at least one case in this TL I've had a ship in one of these classes overperforming this data (Casco herself on the Mississippi - she should have been barely able to go upstream).
These are all clean speeds, and since many of the Monitors had iron hulls (impossible to copper) they fouled fast - 3 knots after a few months on station would not be unlikely, though of course TTL that doesn't matter as Monitor barely makes it out of NY Harbor.


Puritan has the same machinery as Dictator (in design) but 10% more displacement and a slightly more hydrodynamic hull (length to beam ratio wise) - best estimate is she'd be similar to Dictator, and certainly not her design speed of 15 knots (faster than Warrior!) Similarly Kalamazoo is similar to Dictator but less hydrodynamic, so 8 knots?
All this is calm sea speeds, and Monitor found she could make no headway against waves - one reason that Monitors and other coastal service ironclads were often towed even if theoretically capable of transit by themselves.

Conclusion: Monitors are not very fast by the standards of the day, and were particularly vulnerable to speed loss compared to reported or projected top speeds.

2 - handling

Known turning circles.

Dictator 230 yards (French service)
Onondaga 260 yards (French service)
Canonicus 300 yards
Passaic 350 yards

Note that the water depth for these is not known! (Ships handle better in deep water, even in water of twice their depth the suction effect is considerable.) Monitor would likely have had about a 500 yard circle in shallow water but less (more like Passaic) in deep.

The turning circles for ships of the line, frigates or moderately long armoured frigates was ~400 yards, while Warrior at top speed was over 700 yards - which sounds bad!

But.
This is all distance based. And see point (1) - the Monitors are very slow to get around their circles compared to the more conventional capital ships. They require a lot more open water, but Warrior could do a half-circle in 2 1/2 minutes and Royal Oak in 1 1/2 (both at near top speed) while the monitors would take 3-4 minutes or (in the case of Monitor) 6 or so. This leads to the odd result that a Warrior and a Monitor both trying to do donuts would have the Warrior doing a much larger circle but still doing more turns in a given time.

Conclusion: Monitors have small but slow turning circles, and are better at fighting in very congested waters. They can be out-turned in open seas.


3 - seaworthiness.

Freeboards compared to sqrt(length), all at full load. Where calculated instead of from data, marked with asterisk - these are actually the largest values!
Remember that ideally freeboard should be at least 1.1 times sqrt(length).

Monitor 14 inches (sqrt(L) 13.3 feet) - figure of merit 0.09
Passiac 2 feet* (sqrt(L) 14.1 feet) - FOM 0.14
Canonicus 22 inches* (sqrt(L) 15 feet) - FOM 0.12
Onondaga 14 inches (sqrt(L) 15 feet) - FOM 0.08
Dictator 16 inches (sqrt(L) 17.7 feet) - FOM 0.075
Miantonomoh 16 inches* (sqrt(L) 16.1 feet) - FOM 0.08

If the waves are greater than the freeboard then the deck is awash - and the turret can't be lifted to fight as there's a significant leak path, it rests on the deck and has to be jacked up clear to rotate.
Metacentric height very low, so very low reserve bouyancy and moderate rolls are fatal (this is because of the small righting moment). Monitor had a vanishing angle of fifteen degrees.

It's true that the Miantonomoh crossed the Atlantic, and that other monitors (both Passaic class, see above for relatively high freeboard) occasionally got caught in gales, but in most cases the ships making major crossings had breakwaters constructed at the bows (thus in the case of Miantonomoh nearly quadrupling her bow freeboard!) and that the ships caught in gales had to turn head on to the waves and were only exposed for a short time. (If a monitor had taken a large wave broadside-on then it would have turned them over and sunk them, and a long time exposed would have caused heavy slamming to disable the pumps - at which point they sink. Lehigh took on an amount of water that would probably have sunk Onondaga.)

Conclusion: no monitor is really seagoing as such, but they may be able to transit in good weather. Bad weather is to be absolutely avoided for fear of severe damage to the ship, and a Monitor caught without the ability to duck into sheltered waters is probably unfightable and may be sunk purely by weather.


4 - Armour

This is a complex and multifaceted topic.

- The Monitor type turret was jacked up in order to rotate, and the gearing tended to break in action due to percussion.
- Monitor refused action against Virginia by retreating into shallow water when the opportunity for a second battle came
- Virginia had armed with bolts after their first clash

The mechanism of ductile iron armour being penetrated is two phase - first the armour deforms, absorbing energy, and secondly it reaches elastic limit and starts fracturing/tearing.
The first phase is where backing matters - oak backing can provide a 'crumple zone' and thus absorb a lot of energy.

With laminate armour such as the Monitors, the quality of the bolts holding the laminate together is an issue. With perfect (impossible) bolting then the laminate acts as a single plate in phase one and hence is difficult to deform, but in the second phase the angle of tearing is much less significant than in single plate (so is easier to tear once deformed). The more poorly bolted the worse the first phase goes.

Monitors in particular used silicaceous wrought iron - this is just because alloying wasn't understood at the time so it was the quality of the ore that mattered, and they used bad ore. The Royal Navy had the time to test plates - humourously, the rejected ones were sold abroad! - but the US had no such opportunity as it caused some delay and they needed ships urgently.

US monitors had their plates worked cold, not hot, and for the circular armour of a turret this (and lack of annealing afterwards) causes problems relative to the costlier and better practice of working plates hot and annealing them afterwards.) This and the previous point both mean US plate is inferior to an equivalent British ship.

Assuming no such inferiority:

Monitor - 8" laminate, equal to unbacked 6" single plate (80% resistance of Warrior's side)
Passaic - 11" laminate, equal to unbacked 8" single plate (145% Warrior's side at over twice the weight)
Dictator and others - 10" of laminate with 5" space, roughly same as Passaic.

This means that, really, Monitor's turret should have been pierced by a single 68-lber hit (though I did have it up armoured TTL so that's fine). Later turrets resist a single hit but probably not two close together, will suffer heavily from spalling if from bolt heads if nothing else, and the RML 7" or Somerset gun are able to go right through (the 7" at 1,000 yards).

Hull armour: Sides essentially invulnerable due to heavy wood backing. Deck is thin (2 0.5" plates for Passaic) and vulnerable even at an acute angle. If a ship fires a 68-lber at the deck on the down roll it would be very destructive.

Conclusion: there is a brief period OTL where the armour of a Monitor turret is heavy enough to resist single hit penetration by the British anti-armour weapons of the time, but there is no time they are invulnerable.

5 - firepower

A Monitor armed with an 11" gun has a 5-7 minute load time on the gun but has extreme trouble penetrating a British ironclad. Smaller guns are preferable so long as the punching power is nevertheless greater.
The OTL armament is mostly very bad.
The 15" guns fitted to the Passaic class crippled their offensive punch - while the gun is very capable when it fires, it was not the designed armament and a smoke box and muzzle ring had to be fitted. No smoke box and the gun is unworkable, smoke box and no muzzle ring and the smoke box is promptly destroyed by blast.
The smoke box blocks the port and sight, and also prevents the 15" being set on for elevation.

The 11" is small enough that there is room in the turret for ready ammunition (about ten rounds) and loading and firing can thus be done relatively fast.
The 15" uses larger rounds - too large to work by hand - and of course has the smoke box.
Evolution for loading a 15" gun:

Turn turret straight forwards.
Open hatches in turret deck and hull.
Lower winch.
Winch up ball.
Move ball to gun muzzle using pulley system.

This took about a quarter of an hour, very roughly, and also meant that the 11" gun could not be aimed during this time (as the turret is locked). So a Monitor or Passaic with two 11" guns can use up ready ammunition and then get more, but with one or two 15" guns they have to do this cumbersome loading evolution.

2x11": No way to penetrate Warrior. (e.g. OTL Monitor)
1x11" and 1x15": Very slow loading for both guns. (e.g. OTL Passaic)
2x15": Very slow loading for both guns, impossible to aim guns (smoke boxes block all view from turret). (e.g. OTL Manhattan)

Accuracy in general is quite poor - Sumter 1863 has ~25% accuracy against fort at range of 600-1000 yards.
Manhattan against the Tennessee scored four hits out of six shots fired - when Tennessee was stationary and 200 yards away.
Monitor hit Virginia approx. 36% of the time.

50% accuracy against the huge Warrior at close range would not be overly pessimistic.


Penetration:

British tests showed 11" could not penetrate Warrior
15" could with heavy charge - in testing the RN used heavier charges than the US authorized, as well as US-comparable charges.

US comparable charges: 15" just penetrates Warrior target at 100 yards
166% of US comparable charges: 15" just penetrates Bellerophon target (backed 6") at 70 feet. n.b. that using non-safe charges like this in a fighting ship has increasing risk of blowing the entire turret to bits and killing the whole crew, so it would be a brave commander indeed who did it!

Against Warrior's citadel, this means a penetration is possible at very close range. As it's a cannonball not a shell this will perhaps knock out one or two guns - not life threatening, and the refire rate is (as mentioned) extremely poor.

Aiming for a vulnerable section of Warrior (bow or stern) is very difficult - as noted above the gun is being aimed 'blind', and the turret is hard to control at the best of times (and the gun can only be aimed by turning the gun or turning the whole ship!) So aiming at the stern unlikely to work well.
All steering gear is below the waterline.
(Hits on a wooden ship or conversion would be more serious)

Conclusion: A monitor which can damage Warrior's fighting value is doing it either with a weapon not deployed OTL (e.g. 8" Parrott rifle as TTL) or one which has a very, very slow refire rate and poor accuracy, and steering very close to do it.

Grand conclusions:

No Monitor can fight in a seaway. Sorties out to fight a blockading squadron are perilous indeed, a Monitor will sink very quickly either in bad weather or in the event of deck damage.
Defending against an RN assault is possible, but in the time taken for an ironclad-effective Monitor gun to reload the ship carrying it will take several hundred hits. The likelihood here is that the turret is jammed, the ship is badly damaged and the deck is holed.
Against a wooden ships, read again but the 11" is effective and "several dozen".
For a fair fight you need several Monitors against a single unsupported RN ship of force, in sheltered waters, and with the RN ship unable to manoeuvre to hold the range open or escape.
 
Addendum - I've come across a recent and very detailed post w.r.t. ironclads, but unfortunately it's from someone who's been banned from here and is as such not something I can link to or copy-paste.

I'll try to rewrite it in my own words later, but for now the salient point is that I have probably overestimated the service freeboard and seakeeping of the monitors! (Vanishing angle for Monitor was fifteen degrees - if she heels over 15 degrees she no longer has any righting moment and just rolls over.)
And the problems with fighting them in a seaway - I can categorically state that a Monitor armed with a 15" gun is utterly vulnerable to even an unarmoured sloop in a seaway, because ammunition was passed up through a hatch in the deck with the turret locked in forwards position. If there is white or green water over the deck then opening that hatch is pretty much instantly and dramatically fatal to the monitor. (The 11" rounds were at least small enough that a few of them could be stored as ready ammunition in the turret...)

So basically the monitors were weapons that could only be used in, say, coastal waters, when it was relatively calm, against an enemy that never changed course?
 

Saphroneth

Banned
So basically the monitors were weapons that could only be used in, say, coastal waters, when it was relatively calm, against an enemy that never changed course?
The first two points are valid, the third one not so much - the 11" gun was effective against non-armoured ships or lightly armoured ships and the 15" gun could be very destructive - if it hit.
So against a strong ironclad, the best they can do is compel the ironclad to engage them; against anything less, they can do a fair amount of damage (though are still vulnerable if the enemy has a heavy anti armour weapon of their own).
Coastal or sheltered waters are really needed, though.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
On a completely difficult note, anyone remember how the US Federal Government exercises so much power due to the Commerce Clause?

Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3 of the U.S. Constitution, which gives Congress the power “to regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes.”
Which has historically been interpreted as very, very broad.

Now imagine how broad "the power to regulate matters of foreign relations" is.
 
It seems that the Americans are very much in a defensive mindset if all they are building are ships that can barely leave their harbors.

They were designed as offensive weapons for the shallow estuaries and bays of the American southern Atlantic and Gulf Coasts (both are very shallow indeed for most of it), as well as river operations on the Mississippi River system and also were more than adequate for coastal operations in Union waters, particularly when supported by forts and conventional warships. Three classes (4 ships total) were designed expressly for riverine operations, three classes were supposed to be ocean going ships (only one class of 4 ships, 3 finished after the war, actually were). The remainder did reasonably well operating in coastal regions and were able to handle severe weather. They couldn't fight in it, but then few ships could handle operations in a heavy gale or more because of the issue of gunports and potential flooding. Even the greatest fight ever fought in heavy weather, the Battle of Quiberon Bay in 1759 saw restrictions on British ships as they had to keep their lower ports closed.

The monitors were not designed, nor ever intended, to refight Trafalgar or fight a mid 19th Century Jutland or Tsushima. They had their problems, but it should be noted only one, the prototype, was lost at sea, another, the Weehawken was lost to negligence (and was a 2nd generation ship), 2 lost to torpedoes (naval mines), 2 scuttled during the War of the Pacific (in Peruvian service), out of 23 that saw active service. Several took as many as 53 hits (1st Battle of Charleston) and none were lost to gunfire.

Not bad for a ship type that was designed and built in 4 months (the Monitor) and was essentially a revolutionary weapons system

It should be noted that the first turreted ocean going battleship that wasn't fatally flawed (as the HMS Captain and USS Roanoke mostly certainly were) was not until 1871, the British Devastation class.

The mid 19th Century saw change, as far as warship design is concerned, at dizzying speed.
 
I sense calamity hovering over this.

it should be noted that this ship was a failure and never completed, it never got those guns and its machinery had all sorts of problem and was never completed. Still not as big a failure as the Stevens Battery though, which saw over 30 years of development and millions (in 19th Century dollars no less) of dollars spent and produced absolutely nothing. The next 4 classes (23 ships built or planned, some as late as 1866) were very successful (see post above). The Puritan and Dictator were both cancelled as failures due to development issues, while the modification of a heavy steam frigate (the Roanoke) into a 3 turret monitor was also a failure (stability issues). But the last class built, the Miantonomoh class of 4 ships, were seaworthy enough for one to steam from New York to San Francisco through the Straits of Magellen, while the lead ship steamed across the Atlantic to Europe postwar.

The mid 19th Century saw a lot of experimentation in warship design. There were a lot of failures such as the HMS Captain, a masted turreted ship built in the UK and forced on the RN by politicians that sank in a storm taking over 500 men with her.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
It should be noted that the first turreted ocean going battleship that wasn't fatally flawed (as the HMS Captain and USS Roanoke mostly certainly were) was not until 1871, the British Devastation class.
Monarch, surely? Turreted sail warship, 4 12" RML guns, 15 knots under steam, 7" solid belt and 10" solid turrets, excellent stability.

The remainder did reasonably well operating in coastal regions and were able to handle severe weather. They couldn't fight in it, but then few ships could handle operations in a heavy gale or more because of the issue of gunports and potential flooding. Even the greatest fight ever fought in heavy weather, the Battle of Quiberon Bay in 1759 saw restrictions on British ships as they had to keep their lower ports closed.

There's a difference in the ability to handle weather between ships able to operate some of their gun ports in heavy weather and ships which have freeboard measured in inches and unable to fire any guns in two-foot waves. The difference is that the Monitor type is in serious trouble in Sea State Three as water over the deck will leak down the turret path if it's lifted to be fought.


ED:

I will also note that in the past you have described HMS Colossus as "low freeboard" - the Colossus class has a freeboard of ~25 feet forward (and the gun deck is 9 feet 6 inches above the water) To describe a ship with that much freeboard as low freeboard while also describing the seaworthiness of any Monitor in positive terms seems to me to be a case of a double standard.

Additionally, in noting Monarch I was remiss in not also pointing out the various British coastal defence turret ironclads such as Wivern, Scorpion, Prince Consort and Royal Sovereign. Two of these at least were built under order from the Confederacy (the Laird Rams, Scorpion and Wivern) and would have been capable of crossing an ocean. While low freeboard - four feet for the Laird Rams and seven to eight for the Prince Consort and Royal Sovereign - they still compare favourably with any Monitor.

Any discussion of Monitors relating to their capabilities as ships versus their freeboard should also highlight the Breastwork Monitors (designed by Reed) which predate Devastation and as such also deserve mention in this context. These used a moderate-height armoured breastwork of about seven feet to protect all the components of fighting value (and hence all the leak paths) while not giving up the defensive advantage of low freeboard. (It's actually to this that the internal memo from a day or two previously was leading up to - Reed is very shortly to take up his post!)


...I swear I'm not trying to edit this post to a ridiculous level, but I feel I should note that the Captain (flawed as she was) still had greater stability than most Monitors - her vanishing angle is much larger than that of Monitor, and she was lost in gale force winds when under normal way. (Any Monitor under those conditions would already have had to go bow-on to the waves or been quickly sunk; the problem with Captain is not that she's less weatherly than a Monitor but that she was thought to outclass Monitors more thoroughly than she actually did.)
 
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the Captain (flawed as she was) still had greater stability than most Monitors - her vanishing angle is much larger than that of Monitor, and she was lost in gale force winds when under normal way.
With a very large sail rig, to boot- even more than HMS Monarch (27,700 square foot vs 37,990 square foot) despite its lower metacentric height. The ship was basically blown over because they couldn't reduce the sail area in time.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
With a very large sail rig, to boot- even more than HMS Monarch (27,700 square foot vs 37,990 square foot) despite its lower metacentric height. The ship was basically blown over because they couldn't reduce the sail area in time.
Yes, Captain is one of those cases where things are at once comic and tragic. I'm not sure there's a way to save her if things go as OTL up to the launching, though if her rigging fails then ironically it might merely give her a very dangerous scare.

Her loss probably saved plenty of lives in the long run, though - for decades afterwards the RN was obsessed with stability.


Something I'm unsure of is if Captain will even be built TTL, though. She was quite an odd duck in procurement terms.
 
31 August - 6 September 1863

Saphroneth

Banned
31 August

The Warsaw Mint changes the emphasis of their currency production, shifting to include more złote and fewer rubles.

Also on this date, the Sejm appoints Romuald Traugutt as the commander of all Polish armed forces. These are quite considerable in size, as the deliberate focus on liberal values (rather than strictly national ones) has kept foreign sympathy high and allowed plenty of arms purchases, and crucially the Huszaria irregulars have given the Polish time to train their new troops to a moderate standard. (They are hardly good parade-ground troops, with about the only close-order formation they are any good at being the rally square, but they are fairly effective at finding cover and using it - the typical formation is irregular dense skirmish order with the troops deliberately staying close enough together to form a quick rally square in case of cavalry.)

Romuald's first decision is to begin preparations for capturing the Warsaw Citadel - still occupied by about 7,000 Russian troops, this is a serious problem that the Polish state must solve.

3 September

Edward Reed is formally made chief constructor of the Royal Navy, succeeding Isaac Watts. Reed is very young for the task, at 33, but is considered to be an excellent choice owing to his time at the Royal Institute of Naval Architects.
His first projects are to take the current plans for the next generation ironclads in hand (succeeding the Warrior's generation, these will be the ones built with combat experience in mind from the start), and to advance plans for the harbour-defence vessels for Pearl Harbour.
He is also almost immediately approached by Cowper Coles, who wants approval for a masted turret design. Reed is not entirely sure this is a good idea - the conflict between the ideal form for a turret ship and the shrouds and mast required for a sailing vessel is considerable - though he does approve paper design work to begin immediately and asks for at least four alternative designs (of which more than one may be ordered if there is debate over which would be ideal).


5 September

Coles telegrams Armstrong asking how soon high powered breech loading armour penetrating guns can be expected. This is related to an idea of his for a particularly odd turret design - something of a mad wheeze, this is based on the idea that the Coles turret does not depend on a central spindle (using a roller path on the deck) but could potentially be built around the base of the foremast and mizzenmast. With two heavy BL guns per turret, one each side of the mast, then reloading would not significantly damage the mast.
This would still not be able to operate the turrets at all angles while under sail, but he feels it would be possible to design the rigging such that chase fire for the fore and aft turrets can be achieved while the shrouds are still present. The ship would clear for action and switch to steam before a general broadside battle.
Armstrong gives his best estimate as being around 1865 to 1866, ignorant of what Coles is planning to do with this information.


6 September

After a contentious discussion in the Confederate House of Representatives, the Foreign Relations Act passes. It will go on to the Confederate Senate, where it is expected to pass. (Essentially all the States have instructed their Senators to strongly consider the Act, as each of them is worried about what one of the others will do to accidentally get them into a war!)
On the same day, in Pennsylvania (still the temporary seat of the US Government) Congress authorizes the procurement of two broadside ironclads of the 'Defence' type (i.e. broadside frigates of comparable size to the largest wooden frigates built by the US Navy, though not as large as Warrior) to fit the specification issued previously for a sea service ironclad.
 
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Saphroneth

Banned
n.b. I have no idea if the "mast turret" would work. It's ingenious, creative, and might just make the mast fall off after gunnery practice, so it sounds like just the sort of thing Coles would propose!
 
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Monarch, surely? Turreted sail warship, 4 12" RML guns, 15 knots under steam, 7" solid belt and 10" solid turrets, excellent stability.

her designer didn't consider her satisfactory

""no satisfactorily designed turret ship has yet been built, or even laid down.....the middle of the upper deck of a full-rigged ship is not a very eligible place for fighting large guns". In 1871 Reed stated to the Committee on Designs that he wanted on a turret ship no poop and no forecastle, and masts carrying at most light rig past which the guns could fire fore or aft on the centre-line."
(from wikipedia).

So not really sure if a ship the designer considers unsatisfactory really counts as not fatally flawed. But at least she was reasonably stable, so that was a major step forward.

as to a double standard. Yep, I have one. The monitors are not supposed to patrol in deep water in one of the roughest bodies of water in the world (North Atlantic off the coast Maine to New York). They were supposed to and able to patrol in shallow coastal waters. The British ironclads can't do that because of their draft, so a deep draft and shallow freeboard is a problem for the British ironclads. They can't run for the shallows in severe weather. The Monitors could and did.

The important fact is that only the broadside and central battery type ironclads were what we would consider 'seaworthy' in terms of routine oceanic operations. However as the USN didn't need any for the historic war it fought, it didn't build many as they couldn't operate inshore where the mission was. I suspect they would build some now in your timeline. Possibly something derived both from the New Ironsides and Dunderberg.

In other words, my double standard is based on the mission the ship is supposed to perform and where it is supposed to perform it.
 
her designer didn't consider her satisfactory

""no satisfactorily designed turret ship has yet been built, or even laid down.....the middle of the upper deck of a full-rigged ship is not a very eligible place for fighting large guns". In 1871 Reed stated to the Committee on Designs that he wanted on a turret ship no poop and no forecastle, and masts carrying at most light rig past which the guns could fire fore or aft on the centre-line."
(from wikipedia).

So not really sure if a ship the designer considers unsatisfactory really counts as not fatally flawed. But at least she was reasonably stable, so that was a major step forward.

I think the problem here is that you are quoting the designer who did not want to place a full set of rigging on his vessel and equating his dissatisfaction with this as the same as sinking in any moderate sea state.

The Monarch's "problems" severely restricted the utility of the turret concept. The monitors problems resulted in it sinking.
 
if her rigging fails then ironically it might merely give her a very dangerous scare.... for decades afterwards the RN was obsessed with stability.
If Coles is on board and survives, he'll probably be obsessed with stability for decades afterwards. I think you're likely to get something like HMS Captain, if only because Coles is very clear on what he wants and won't stop until he's allowed to build it. Besides, if you don't have a HMS Captain people will complain this is a Britwank.

Coles, not Cowles- I think 'Cowper' might be throwing you off, or alternatively your autocorrect is sabotaging you.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
"no satisfactorily designed turret ship has yet been built, or even laid down.....the middle of the upper deck of a full-rigged ship is not a very eligible place for fighting large guns"
While true that it was said, nevertheless Monarch was a ship capable of firing on the broadside and was probably more capable than was believed at the time (as axial fire was considered desirable, which is now thought to be largely an error - this is the basis of Reed's complaint). Your wording was fatally flawed, and Monarch's primary failing was that she could not do axial fire (which no broadside ironclad could do by definition anyway). This is not "fatally flawed", it's "less than it could be" and is a less severe complaint against a warship than, say, being unable to see to aim the guns (USS Manhattan) or being unable to steer (New Ironsides) or having four feet of freeboard over the gun ports and armour thinner than that of ships from eight years prior (Dunderberg)

Your definition of the ideal turret ship seems to be that it should have the ability to engage at all angles (thus no raised forecastle or aftercastle), but to have a high freeboard, but to have shallow draft, but to also be able to sail long distances; that is, that it should be an Admiral class. Fine when it can be built, but the Admirals relied on plenty of development work in the prior decades.
In any case the breastwork monitors answer this issue, before Devastation.


as to a double standard. Yep, I have one. The monitors are not supposed to patrol in deep water in one of the roughest bodies of water in the world (North Atlantic off the coast Maine to New York). They were supposed to and able to patrol in shallow coastal waters. The British ironclads can't do that because of their draft, so a deep draft and shallow freeboard is a problem for the British ironclads. They can't run for the shallows in severe weather. The Monitors could and did.

I'm glad you admit a double standard, though your justification for it is somewhat lacking. The Miantonomoh class you cite as being seaworthy were of 13 feet of draft (not insignificant) and were able to transit seas only with considerable difficulty; that you cite their ability to dash for the shallows in bad weather as positive suggests you do not care about an inability to fight in bad weather and thus the armament being low down doesn't matter.
The Colossus class had a high enough freeboard to ride out waves comfortably without needing to dash for the shallows at all (30% over the rule of thumb) and while the guns would be somewhat wet in very heavy seas the same seas would have long since sunk any Monitor. To call Miantonomoh seaworthy while criticising the freeboard of Colossus is not merely a double standard, it's a double meaning of what seaworthy means in the first place - especially when claiming the ability to make oceanic transit as you do for the Miantonomoh class. If Colossus runs into a storm anywhere, including halfway across the Atlantic, she battens down the hatches and uses her high forecastle to push through the waves; if Miantonomoh runs into a storm (or indeed a heavy sea state) halfway across the Atlantic she cannot run to port, gets heavily battered due to slamming, and may if she loses her pumps (or just comes side on to waves) promptly sink.



The important fact is that only the broadside and central battery type ironclads were what we would consider 'seaworthy' in terms of routine oceanic operations. However as the USN didn't need any for the historic war it fought, it didn't build many as they couldn't operate inshore where the mission was. I suspect they would build some now in your timeline. Possibly something derived both from the New Ironsides and Dunderberg.

Inshore operations isn't an issue for a broadside ironclad so long as it's built right - the TTL Zodiacs and OTL Crimean Ironclads were both more seaworthy and shallower draft than the Monitor and her ilk. (Monitor draft 10 feet 6 in; Miantonomoh and Passaic class 12-13 feet; Aetna class draft 9 feet or less, and the Terror of similar draft was considered sufficiently seaworthy to cruise under her own sail up and down the US coast before Monitor was even launched). The New Ironsides was also a terrible ship for sailing, but that's by the by - her battery was used for bombardment of e.g. Fort Fisher and considered very useful (not surprising, she could fire far more guns and much faster than a Monitor and was probably worth anything from four to seven of them on bombardment work).
Dunderberg is a little better, but I've actually rather helped the US by having them take their inspiration from Defence (very much a second class ironclad compared to Warrior, but eminently seaworthy and still a powerful fighting warship) instead of Dunderberg which was... problematic (3.5" armour is not enough to protect a serious fighting ship during the time she was built, by the time she was launched the British had guns in service that could penetrate her with Palliser shell at a range of nearly a mile - a similar British ship's armour was on the order of 5-6 inches)... or New Ironsides which needed to be towed into position on occasion due to terrible water flow around the control surfaces.

As for the mission being inshore, this isn't really the case for blockading the South either - blockade ships of force can lie quite a long way offshore to minimize the danger from pounces by enemy ships, relying on smaller vessels to do the actual work of chasing down potential blockade breakers. A properly built (and fairly well armoured) ironclad of the Terror class could get closer inshore than a Monitor type, and a very heavy ironclad of deep draft like Royal Oak or Monarch could just follow the shipping channel and blow the forts to bits at long range with her heavy guns.



In short, for the design requirements you cite for the Monitor type ships the British already had perfectly capable vessels (Crimea-type ironclads) which were also capable of crossing long distances at sea in a pinch. For the design requirement of a seagoing ironclad the British built vessels (broadside ironclad frigates) which served the role much better than the Monitor type ships.
For the turreted ironclad concept the British built Monarch (advantage over contemporary broadside ships is that the full very heavy armament can bear on both broadsides; disadvantage is small number of guns) and Captain (stability problems largely unrelated to use of turret) as well as the breastwork monitors (all seven of which are superior to US-type monitors in most ways the Monitors are lacking) before Devastation.
 
nevertheless Monarch was a ship capable of firing on the broadside and was probably more capable than was believed at the time (as axial fire was considered desirable, which is now thought to be largely an error - this is the basis of Reed's complaint).
Reed was pretty happy with her, all things considered: 'It is very satisfactory indeed to find that the Admiralty turret-ship "Monarch"... has proved a fast, steady and formidable ship, and assuredly I shall not decry those real merits which I have laboured hard to secure to her'. (from Our Ironclad Ships) He certainly thought they were better than their transatlantic rivals:

'If the reader will examine the section of the "Kalamazoo," on page 35, he will see that even the strongest of all the American monitors bears no real comparison with our own later vessels, even as regards the uniform thickness of its armour; while a reference to page 44 will convince him that the "Dictator," which has been exhibited to us in terrorem so very often, is, after all, a feeble construction, its armour disappearing almost immediately beneath the water's surface, so that every passage of a wave must expose its unarmoured part to shot and shell.' (same source)
 
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