If Native Americans had Bronze Age or Iron Age weaponry, what would it look like ?

[Petike]

There have been plenty of discussions and even timelines on AH.com (and elsewhere in the online AH community) about Native Americans developing a more active use of bronze metalworking, for tool and weapon use alike. In OTL, only the Incas in South America eventually developed more of a bronze-making industry later on. The majority of cultures throughout the Americas never seemed to have used bronze for anything more than creating decorations, and even in that case, copper seemed to be more popular for decorations (e.g. the metal artworks of the Hopewell culture).

Suppose the native cultures did develop from a Chalcolithic period at best to a full-on Bronze Age, and gradually created more diversified and intensive bronze making, e.g. in North America or Central America. Due to the isolation from the human cultures in the Old World, how would the different natural conditions and different cultural/technological/crafting traditions of the New World cultures influence the appearance and use of their weapons or tools ?

The seemingly obvious answer to the question would be "well, it would be first and foremost practical", which is true, but...

Does that mean bronze tools and weapons would necessarily have to look like the bronze tools and weapons of the Bronze Age in Europe, Asia or North Africa* ?

Would Native American cultures eventually develop bronze daggers from bronze knives, and later on, bronze swords from the bronze daggers ? Would those bronze swords largely resemble the typical "urnfield sword" appearance seen widely throughout the European Bronze Age ? Could there be more unique designs, presuming they're possible with a bendy, finicky metal like bronze ?

What would NA Bronze Age spearheads or arrowheads look like ? Would there be any unusual Bronze Age weapons that would be distinctly Native American, unlike any style of weapon seen in Bronze Age Europe, Asia, etc. ?

And what about metal elements incorporated into armour, and the potential different armour styles of different cultures and regions ?

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(Note: * - I say "North Africa" because much of OTL Africa, especially Subsaharan, seems to have transitioned from the Neolithic straight into the Iron Age.)

 

[LSCatilina]

I think that some Natives cultures could actually bypass some of Bronze Age features : a bit like it happened in ancient China, where extensive use of jade reduced the reliance over bronze (and eventually copper and tin) into sort of "Nephritolitic" culture. In ancient Americas, the use of obsidian could play the same role than jade in IOTL China.

 

[Balaur]

At least with the Aztecs and other Mesoamericans, I would say that they were in an "obsidilithic" period when Columbus et al turned up.

 

[LSCatilina]

I may have worded this poorly : indeed, most of noticable native cultures did knew such use : I should have said "use of obsidian could play the same role as jade in IOTL China, as only a step to Iron Age".

 

[Escape Zeppelin]

Function really is the overriding factor on design here. Form follows function and even in our history and a separation of 30k years old and new world tools were incredibly similar except for material. An axe is going to look like an axe no matter who invents it. Same with spear and arrow heads. There's room for style and variation but it's still going to be instantly recognizable for what it is. I think there's probably the most latitude for new shapes when it comes to swords as their function really varies wildly from type to type. Looking at old world designs you have everything from rapiers to broadswords to Egyptian khopesh. They look different because they're not really the same tool.

There's always room for innovation but the general homogeneity of tools in the old world (something that extended to stone versions in the new) leads me to believe that the designs of pre-columbian metal tools will be remarkably similar to ours. Of course there will be tons of regional variation based on personal needs as well as resource availability.

 

[Doc Railgun]

Part of the reason for a "Bronze Age" in Europe was that there were deposits of copper and tin in close proximity or were able to be transported relatively easy - NA is a much bigger place. Where would Native American cultures find those things together? The Iron Age in Europe began because they ran out of tin. Low-carbon steel is really no better than bronze.
As for what these weapons would look like? Probably not bronze arrowheads since stone ones work fine, but there might be bronze spearheads and more spears in use. Swords are overrated anyway.

There have been plenty of discussions and even timelines on AH.com (and elsewhere in the online AH community) about Native Americans developing a more active use of bronze metalworking, for tool and weapon use alike. In OTL, only the Incas in South America eventually developed more of a bronze-making industry later on. The majority of cultures throughout the Americas never seemed to have used bronze for anything more than creating decorations, and even in that case, copper seemed to be more popular for decorations (e.g. the metal artworks of the Hopewell culture).

Suppose the native cultures did develop from a Chalcolithic period at best to a full-on Bronze Age, and gradually created more diversified and intensive bronze making, e.g. in North America or Central America. Due to the isolation from the human cultures in the Old World, how would the different natural conditions and different cultural/technological/crafting traditions of the New World cultures influence the appearance and use of their weapons or tools ?

The seemingly obvious answer to the question would be "well, it would be first and foremost practical", which is true, but...

Does that mean bronze tools and weapons would necessarily have to look like the bronze tools and weapons of the Bronze Age in Europe, Asia or North Africa* ?

Would Native American cultures eventually develop bronze daggers from bronze knives, and lateron, bronze swords from the bronze daggers ? Would those bronze swords largely resemble the typical "urnfield sword" appearance seen widely throughout the European Bronze Age ? Could there be more unique designs, presuming they're possible with a bendy, finicky metal like bronze ?

What would NA Bronze Age spearheads or arrowheads look like ? Would there be any unusual Bronze Age weapons that would be distinctly Native American, unlike any style of weapon seen in Bronze Age Europe, Asia, etc. ?

And what about metal elements incorporated into armour, and the potential different armour styles of different cultures and regions ?

----

(Note: * - I say "North Africa" because much of OTL Africa, especially Subsaharan, seems to have transitioned from the Neolithic straight into the Iron Age.)

 

[Petike]

I think that some Natives cultures could actually bypass some of Bronze Age features: a bit like it happened in ancient China, where extensive use of jade reduced the reliance over bronze (and eventually copper and tin) into sort of "Nephritolitic" culture. In ancient Americas, the use of obsidian could play the same role than jade in IOTL China.

At least with the Aztecs and other Mesoamericans, I would say that they were in an "obsidilithic" period when Columbus et al turned up.

most of noticable native cultures did knew such use: I should have said "use of obsidian could play the same role as jade in IOTL China, as only a step to Iron Age"

This is why I'm particularly interested whether native Americans could "pull a China" or "pull an Africa" and come up with ironworking without a bronzeworking jumping off point. As you and the others have mentioned, an already highly developed Neolithic culture with highly developed stoneworking industries (obsidian, jade, etc.) could eventually bypass the lack of bronze usage and move on to ironmaking, skipping bronze entirely.

But what could be the initial spark behind such a "skip bronze, figure out iron while still using high quality stone tools" paradigm shift ? Could they slowly figure out there is some worth to iron as a material and gradually discover you can fashion it (with a bit of infrastructure and know-how) into base materials that could be used to forge tools and weapons ? As developed as stoneworking industries no doubt were, I doubt any culture would throwaway knowledge of ironworking once they had enough experience with it and had enough time to mature simple smithing.

Function really is the overriding factor on design here. Form follows function and even in our history and a separation of 30k years old and new world tools were incredibly similar except for material. An axe is going to look like an axe no matter who invents it. Same with spear and arrow heads. There's room for style and variation but it's still going to be instantly recognizable for what it is.

I think there's probably the most latitude for new shapes when it comes to swords as their function really varies wildly from type to type. Looking at old world designs you have everything from rapiers to broadswords to Egyptian khopesh. They look different because they're not really the same tool.

That's certain.

Since the only OTL American cultures to ever develop sword-like weapons were basically all Mesomerican (and their "swords" are still more bat-like or club-like), it would be interesting to see how sword traditions could develop in the New World.

Famously, there are a few European finds of swords that were just sharp stone blades arranged onto a sword-like handle and "fuller", possibly in early imitation of existing early bronze swords. If some culture in the Americas develops big enough daggers to be counted as swords, I wouldn't be surprised if more Neolithic cultures try the same sort of imitating. Overall, though, if a bronzeworking native American culture ever developed swords, I suspect they wouldn't be particularly different from the leaf-bladed shape common to their European Bronze Age counterparts.

Speaking of rapiers, some archaeologists apparently refer to certain types of Bronze Age swords as "rapiers", but that's deliberately anachronistic archaeological jargon on their part. Still, the more slender-bladed appearance of these swords definitely evokes the rapiers of the early modern period, if only in spirit. (Personally, I think you could also refer to them as "prehistoric estocs", since many seem to fit the bill appearance-wise.)

There's always room for innovation but the general homogeneity of tools in the old world (something that extended to stone versions in the new) leads me to believe that the designs of pre-columbian metal tools will be remarkably similar to ours. Of course there will be tons of regional variation based on personal needs as well as resource availability.

This is what I was aiming for with my previous "but some of the stuff might look a bit different" insinuations. It's obvious there will be plenty of design convergence when it comes to tools or commonplace weapons.

What I wanted to stress is the local and regional influences on things like the size, subtle shapes and decorations of bronze weaponry. If the natives made bronze or iron "swords", would these swords be all double-edged urnfield-style swords, or would they also have bronze single-edged swords ? I don't necessarily mean something like the Egyptian khopesh, but maybe even something like this.

Part of the reason for a "Bronze Age" in Europe was that there were deposits of copper and tin in close proximity or were able to be transported relatively easy - NA is a much bigger place. Where would Native American cultures find those things together? The Iron Age in Europe began because they ran out of tin. Low-carbon steel is really no better than bronze.

Good point ! This really might be the reason why OTL just never saw a big spark of bronzeworking in the New World.

That said, though... Are there really no areas in North or Central or even South America where you could find tin and copper deposits relatively close together ?

And if there was a dearth of tin to fuel a mettalurgical revolution in Chalcolithic pre-Columbian America, couldn't the natives discover arsenical bronze as an alternative ? While that is also resource-consuming, could they have a better chance utilising the method than with copper-and-tin bronzemaking ?

(I know there's a bigger risk of health problems to the smelters, but let's suppose they do come up with fairly good arsenical bronze and realise you could try to use it for various lighter blades.)

As for what these weapons would look like? Probably not bronze arrowheads since stone ones work fine

I agree. I was just spitballing with the arrowheads. They'd probably be too expensive anyway, out of bounds to even wealthier people with plenty of other bronze tools and weapons.

but there might be bronze spearheads and more spears in use

Spears and other bronze polearms is definitely something I'm interested in the most when it comes to this topic. If the natives could progress to not only a Bronze Age tech level, but an Iron Age one, sophistication in native warfare and variety in polearms could get really good and potentially interesting. Even if they stuck to iron weapons only and never dabbled in large-scale steel making for weaponry, it would be interesting to see how pre-Columbian iron weapons would change the political and social dynamics of the native cultures.

Swords are overrated anyway.

I don't find them all that necessary in a New World Bronze Age. The native cultures were inventive enough to not need them in warfare (as I've already cited with the bladed club weapons from Mesoamerica, etc.). In the old world, prehistoric swords were largely status symbols and self-defence weapons, not exactly frontline hardware.

Besides spears, I think hafted weapons like bronze axes, fighting picks and halberd-like polearms would see a lot of use. (IIRC, Incas actually invented halberds on their own, though I'm not sure they were bronze ones.) Bronze "tomahawks" or pseudo-franciscas would be a no-brainer too (or a de-brainer, if you hit someone in the head).

 

[Balaur]

That "bronze age rapier" is really more of a smallsword in terms of length and blade shape.
In any case, good quality polearms would be a godsend when the conquistadors turn up, since it would give them more of a chance of dealing with cavalry and sword-and-shield infantry in tight formations. Hooked polearms would also suit the Aztec fighting style quite well, since they're very efficient for disarming and hamstringing moves.

 

[Petike]

That "bronze age rapier" is really more of a smallsword in terms of length and blade shape.

Frankly, using later terms for any of these very early swords is an exercise in futility. They're all completely different to what came afterward, with that being largely down to the simple fact they're the earliest iterations of the "longer blade" concept. I did say I'd prefer to call them estocs (a generic term for thrust-centric blades, not just a term for specific medieval sword types).

In any case, good quality polearms would be a godsend when the conquistadors turn up, since it would give them more of a chance of dealing with cavalry and sword-and-shield infantry in tight formations. Hooked polearms would also suit the Aztec fighting style quite well, since they're very efficient for disarming and hamstringing moves.

Exactly what I'm pointing towards, especially if Iron Age tech levels are reached and more complex and varied polearm blades can be made. There aren't that many useful and firm enough blade shapes you can come up with for weapons made of bronze. Iron is more flexible when it comes to designing more specialised fare.

 

[LSCatilina]

As you and the others have mentioned, an already highly developed Neolithic culture with highly developed stoneworking industries (obsidian, jade, etc.) could eventually bypass the lack of bronze usage and move on to ironmaking, skipping bronze entirely.

I'm not sure about "skipping bronze entierley" tough : Erlitou and Sanxingdui culture, especially, relied importantly on bronze mettalurgy (even if it might be trough some PIE influence for the former). I'd think, furthermore, that mastering bronze mettalurgy could be a good steap, technologically-wise, to take on iron mettalurgy : you need a "how to" or a "knack" that IOTL gold metallurgy didn't seem to have really bolstered, maybe because gold is relatively easy to work with.

My point was more, even if it was unclear, that you don't need all native cultures of a given region, say Mesoamerica, to extensively use bronze mettalurgy, but rather than the mix of neolithic cultures, bronze cultures, "nephritolitic" (instead of calcolithic) cultures being more mixed up; and able to pull a China in the way that a widespread and extensive bronze use isn't that really of a necessity as you could go for both support from "nephrite" and early iron.

That said, though... Are there really no areas in North or Central or even South America where you could find tin and copper deposits relatively close together ?

Remember, furthermore, you'd need relativelt accessible tin and cooper deposits (cooper seems to have been worked in IOTL Mesoamerica, so I don't think it's a problem) : regional deposit are no help if they can't be worked without great means. That said, existence of basic technology could bolster long-range tin trade.

 

[ComradeHuxley]

I'm not sure about "skipping bronze entierley" tough : Erlitou and Sanxingdui culture, especially, relied importantly on bronze mettalurgy (even if it might be trough some PIE influence for the former). I'd think, furthermore, that mastering bronze mettalurgy could be a good steap, technologically-wise, to take on iron mettalurgy : you need a "how to" or a "knack" that IOTL gold metallurgy didn't seem to have really bolstered, maybe because gold is relatively easy to work with.

Remember, furthermore, you'd need relativelt accessible tin and cooper deposits (cooper seems to have been worked in IOTL Mesoamerica, so I don't think it's a problem) : regional deposit are no help if they can't be worked without great means. That said, existence of basic technology could bolster long-range tin trade.

A potential counter example are the Haya in Africa how discovered not only iron but steel making by skipping bronze entierly and much more.

The Hayas produced high-grade carbon steel for about 2000 years.The Hayas made their steel in a kiln shaped like a truncated upside-down cone about five feet high. They made both the cone and the bed below it from the clay of termite mounds. Termite clay makes a fine refractory material. The Hayas filled the bed of the kiln with charred swamp reeds. They packed a mixture of charcoal and iron ore above the charred reeds. Before they loaded iron ore into the kiln, they roasted it to raise its carbon content.
The key to the Haya iron process was a high operating temperature. Eight men, seated around the base of the kiln, pumped air in with hand bellows. The air flowed through the fire in clay conduits. Then the heated air blasted into the charcoal fire itself. The result was a far hotter process than anything known in Europe before modern times.

http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi385.htm

It is probably a good example how metalwork can arise and be almost forgotten in isolation.

 

[LSCatilina]

It's really interesting, even if I wonder how much it's about being forgotten in isolation, and how much is it about disappearance of social structures allowing the development of mettalurgy. A bit like it happened with Nok Culture (even if Iron work didn't entierly stopped with Nok society).

 

[Petike]

A potential counter example are the Haya in Africa how discovered not only iron but steel making by skipping bronze entierly and much more. http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi385.htm It is probably a good example how metalwork can arise and be almost forgotten in isolation.

Thank you, these are very interesting ! I'll be sure to study these in detail, as I've always been interested in the development of historical crafts in pre-colonial Africa, incluidng metallurgy. (Last year, I started a similar discussion to this one on Africa not skipping the Bronze Age, with at least a few cultures developing bronzeworking on their own. Pity it didn't go far.)

It's really interesting, even if I wonder how much it's about being forgotten in isolation, and how much is it about disappearance of social structures allowing the development of mettalurgy. A bit like it happened with Nok Culture (even if Iron work didn't entirely stop with Nok society).

The Nok are a good OTL example of the twists and turns of developing such technology, yeah. Jon recently did the timeline Nok Steel, where the Nok apparently keep iron metallurgy going.


On that note: Excluding OTL examples, if a Native American culture with either Bronze Age or Iron Age level of technology were to develop somewhere in the Americas, which areas or regions would be the most likely candidates ?

Which areas of the Americas have a favourable concentration of resources and natural conditions permitting a society capable of building permanent settlements and more complex crafting infrastructure ?

An idea that struck me: The Inuit, of all people, actually had iron tools and weapons in OTL. This mostly came through trade with other nomadic northern cultures, and might have reached them via trade with Asian cultures, such as the various Kamchatkan natives, or Alaskan natives that traded with them across the Bering Strait. There is some evidence their iron weaponry was often made of meteoric iron. Use of iron by Inuits has been documented as far east as Greenland. So, if somehow knowledge of iron and ironworking reached more southern regions of North America, maybe some of the non-Inuit native cultures could have attempted making some iron tools of their own ? It's a bit of a stretch, but if the know-how went southward and locals could put two and two together, maybe there would have been an Iron Age in some parts of the Americas ?

 

[Arkenfolm]

At least in North America, tin is relatively uncommon and isolated from the major centers of civilisation. So any bronze age would be relatively short and in a best case scenario, go straight to the iron age.

The best case scenario would be an upper Mississippian culture that could adapt the copper working of the Michigan Indians and before long, adopt ironworking as well using the plentiful iron deposits of the Iron Range of Minnesota. It's interesting how a region so rich in copper occurs in such close proximity to a region so rich in iron.

How their weaponry and tools would look? Probably quite alien from anything we know but obviously relateable. European, Chinese, and African tools and weapons are comparable but unique in appearance. We see in other fields (i.e. architecture) that American Indians had their own unique styles for the same sort of buildings. So it would be the same in terms of weaponry.

 

[Polish Eagle]

IIRC, copper working in the Old World originated from copper-rich clays fired in high-temperature kilns, yielding a residue of metal that melted out of the clay. High-temperature kilns, in that model for the origin of metallurgy, seem a necessary first step. High temperatures are also necessary to extract iron from ore.

According to Wikipedia, only the Mesoamerican cultures used kilns much at all, with everyone else using open-pit firing. Is there a way to get that particular innovation more widespread?

 

[Escape Zeppelin]

IIRC, copper working in the Old World originated from copper-rich clays fired in high-temperature kilns, yielding a residue of metal that melted out of the clay. High-temperature kilns, in that model for the origin of metallurgy, seem a necessary first step. High temperatures are also necessary to extract iron from ore.

According to Wikipedia, only the Mesoamerican cultures used kilns much at all, with everyone else using open-pit firing. Is there a way to get that particular innovation more widespread?

If one culture develops kiln metal working I'd expect it to spread just as quickly as the idea of metal working itself. The speed iron working spread across Eurasia indicates to me that if one culture developed it that the whole technology from processing to final tool would spread incredibly quickly. If a culture didn't use kilns they'd adopt them immediately if that's what it took to extract iron.

 

[Planet of Hats]

I think that some Natives cultures could actually bypass some of Bronze Age features : a bit like it happened in ancient China, where extensive use of jade reduced the reliance over bronze (and eventually copper and tin) into sort of "Nephritolitic" culture. In ancient Americas, the use of obsidian could play the same role than jade in IOTL China.

I know there's a thread somewhere where I proposed a group of Algonquian-speaking caribou herders around Lake Superior slingshotting from the Copper Age into a nickel-silver age. metalinvader665 sort of outlines the scenario I was toying with.

Positing that this is where North American metallurgy starts, and that this is coming out of a society which developed similarly to the Sami or Nenets in terms of being able to manage the caribou or elk, you have a society where you don't have the same kind of focus on heavy infantry that you see in crowded, mountainous areas of Europe. The Keweenaw Elk and Copper People end up being predominantly really good archers and ambush fighters. They might not even have more than hide armour given that they have a lot of ground to cover, particularly so given that their main method of rapid transit is just throwing a birchbark boat in a river and going - with no horses, these guys would rely on the waterways and shorelines to move around wherever possible. It would seem to me that their MO wouldn't be big field battles; they may mass forces at times, but their method is probably going to be to avoid close combat in favour of attacking from range with arrows.

I feel like your average Keweenaw Elk and Copper People soldiery type comes armed with a composite bow with nickel silver-tipped arrows, a polearm of some kind (probably a pronged one), and a war club with a metal head (and possibly some spikes). Knives would be utility tools and swords wouldn't be a thing. They'd fight by hitting you with arrows from extreme range, or using the polearm to disarm or stick you, then when the fight got close, pulling out the war club and just bashing you to death through whatever armour you're wearing.

 

[LSCatilina]

On that note: Excluding OTL examples, if a Native American culture with either Bronze Age or Iron Age level of technology were to develop somewhere in the Americas, which areas or regions would be the most likely candidates ?

As for what matters the appearance of Iron melting and working, I think it requires some technological "how-to" but, maybe as importantly, a social/economical base on which it can appears and blossom.

Not that it can't be discovered by peripherical cultures, as Inuits (altough it's not exactly your average Iron working, as it was worked cold) but it requires some social development to really get out of the ground and get widespread, IMO.

So, maybe unsurprinsingly, the historical cores of development in America would be favoured : Mesoamerica, Andine America as obvious choices; Oasisamerica, Mississipi Basin, Northern Andine as possible choices (sort of LaTenian equivalent, maybe).

Which areas of the Americas have a favourable concentration of resources and natural conditions permitting a society capable of building permanent settlements and more complex crafting infrastructure ?

You don't that need concentration of resources, all you need is a first development that would eventually create a trade road : Middle-East doesn't have much tin sources for instance and relied on the Tin Road to Central Asia or Western Europe.

I know there's a thread somewhere where I proposed a group of Algonquian-speaking caribou herders around Lake Superior slingshotting from the Copper Age into a nickel-silver age. metalinvader665 sort of outlines the scenario I was toying with.

You mean this one?

 

[Planet of Hats]

You mean this one?

Thaaaaat's the one.

Extended trade roads are a little harder in the Americas if you want to go overland because of the lack of horses, but you could do it if you had boats and slaves.

 

[LSCatilina]

I was under impression that tin was present in Oasisamerica, and not that deep or in harsh places that it would be too difficult to mine it out?
At this point, we know of the (relative) importance of trade contacts (if indirect IOTL) between Oasisamerica and Mesoamerica, so while it would require some tinkering, a land-based trade road doesn't strikes me as unthinkable.