How true is the Great Man fallacy/theory?

Hello everyone,

Something's bugging me. You know about the Great Man fallacy, how it's not one man who can change history but general conditions have more influence.
Yet, there is a number of thread about WI Hitler died, Napoleon didn't decide to go to Russia, etc...

So, what's your opinion on this? Do great men matter or is it just the general conditions of the time?

The "Great Man" hypothesis is poorly named, for obscure individuals lost to the history books can change events in a huge way and asking a question about a "fallacy" prejudges the situation. Better to use the word "theory" or "hypothesis".

My answer is this: if you could go back in time to some point within your lifetime with the knowledge you have today and believe that such an event could change the course of history, you believe in the Great Man hypothesis to some extent in that you believe one individual can with their will change the course of history.

I believe in it because, if I could go back to the year 1999, when I lived in Florida, and did nothing but register voters in that state, I think the 2000 election would have turned out differently. As it was, I did that work for Gore in 2000 and worked on voter registration. We just didn't register enough of them. Toss that in with a tip to the FBI that some nutjob named Mohammed Atta was taking flying lessons in Florida and working with a terror group to hijack airplanes and you have a world that looks a lot different than the one we live in today.

This is not inconsistent with believing that general conditions, in the main, have more influence. Electing Gore and preventing 9/11 is one thing, preventing the 2008 financial meltdown would be more challenging, even with absolute foresight; again, in OTL, I saw it coming due in large part to prior work in the financial sector and a mentor who saw things even clearer than I did and who was in a position to know and who spoke publicly on the subject. In that case, I could have made even more money than I did, but I think it is unlikely that I could have changed the outcome.

Now take those thoughts and imagine a world that didn't have FDR, Hitler, Churchill and Stalin. I doubt the world today would look the same today.
 

Rubicon

Banned
The question that ought to be asked rather is: do important times bring forth great individuals or do great individuals bring forth important times?

Example 1: Alexis Komnenoi, Rodrigo de Vivar, Bohemond de Hauteville, William I the Bastard

Example 2: Richard I Plantagenet, Friedrich II Barbarossa, Salah'ah'din.

Example 3: Henry VIII, Karl V Habsburg, Martin Luther

Example 4: Pjotr I Romanov, Karl XII, Louis XIV, John Churchill Duke of Marlborough
 

scholar

Banned
Hello everyone,

Something's bugging me. You know about the Great Man fallacy, how it's not one man who can change history but general conditions have more influence.
Yet, there is a number of thread about WI Hitler died, Napoleon didn't decide to go to Russia, etc...

So, what's your opinion on this? Do great men matter or is it just the general conditions of the time?
Great men matter. History is a process of mutual reinforcement, hundreds of thousands of threads constantly pull at one another creating a canvas. One man cannot do much to affect this whole generally, or even near universally. However, should that one man be in the right moment, at the right time, as well as being the right man, then the entire course of human history can be altered in a single moment. Military leaders, prominent and influential politicians, famous authors, philosophers, and people connected to the arts, and people of high ranking nobility all wield a disproportionate amount of power over the course of history. The leader of the country is even more pivotal. Even if at best their power to influence history is normally capped at around 30% at best, if we accept ergodicity and sensitivity to outside stimuli with regards to human beings, then your fallacy is rendered rubbish. One thing that people often tend to forget is that when we think of Great Men, we do not think of just one man - we think of the hundreds of thousands, the millions of people, who are moved by him.

The creation of the great empires of Europe can be more or less completely reduced to family politics as a primary mover until the rise of nationalism. Other factors are important, do not get me wrong, but in the grand scheme of things it is marriages, wars based on claims, and the great men and women who determine the flow of time. It matters that Charlemagne was Charlemagne. If one man could not really take much of a chance in history, just do some thought experiments regarding Charlemagne. Imagine if a man half as talented was put in charge, imagine if he was unwilling to work with the papacy, and imagine if he had a disdain for learning. In short, imagine Charlemagne was just another, like so many other leaders. I doubt anything in this world would bare even the slightest resemblance to what it is now. Another would probably have taken his place, but that would have taken time - time that may well result in a world completely unrecognizable.

Anyone who tells you the great course of human affairs were not influenced by a man named Temujin who would become Genghis Khan is a fool. Anyone who tells you men like Rousseau, Voltaire, Robespierre, Napoleon, and Louis XVI had no influence on, or did not radically define the character of the French Revolution is monstrously ill equipped to even begin to study history. People tend not to realize that the Russian Revolution was actually jump started when Kaiser Wilhelm decided to deposit political dissidents, like Lenin, into Russia in order to take them out of the war. This supports great men theory not just because of Lenin and his compatriots, but also because of Wilhelm. We have the likes of Marcus Aurelian who brought about the end of the third century crisis through ruthless and unrelenting competence. It was he who allowed Diocletian and later Constantine to emerge within just a few decades, should he not have existed or been less successful the entire character of the later Roman World would have been altered unless you assume a man of similar talent accomplishing the same thing with successors who would likewise repeat things exactly.

The idea of Great Man theory being a fallacy ultimately stems from fundamentally misunderstanding what the idea of Great Men mean and a sickeningly modern retroactive application of Realism and Economic Liberalism into the past, along with an idea of predestination in regards to societal, cultural, economical advancement. Anyone who does not buy into predestination or is a constructivist will disagree.
 

scholar

Banned
The question that ought to be asked rather is: do important times bring forth great individuals or do great individuals bring forth important times?
In my view it is both: the times define the individual as they mature, and as they mature the individual defines the times.
 

Riain

Banned
If we accept that some people are clearly more competent than others and that some countries are clearly more powerful and influential than others than I think the idea of a 'great man' is a certainty. However the idea is a malleable one, a dictator is more obvious in his use of power to do great deeds but a democratic leader who skilfully uses the system and people around him is just as great but some/much of the credit is spread around due to the nature of the system. I'd also suggest that a 'great man' doesn't have to have global influence, he/she can be 'great' on a smaller stage and perhaps elevate his/her country within a region or whatever.
 
I think "Great Man" doesn't necessarily mean someone who was a great leader, inventor, general, etc. It just means someone who made a notable impact on history through their actions.
 
For long term trends, "Great Men" are irrelevant. The more specific you get, the more they matter. To use everyone's favorite evil example, the rise of a revanchist, anti-democratic, and militaristic Germany in the 1930's was almost inevitable and would have happened with or without Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party. The Holocaust, however, and how it came down, was a very specifically Hitlerite evil. Many Jews in Europe would have still been been alive in 1945 if Hitler, with his very specific ideas and demagogic skills was never born.
 
I feel like "Great Man" is a poor name for it. I'd say a better term would just be "Influential Man" in terms of being more like an influential point; by virtue of causing a major change in the very direction of events. So whereas Hitler or say Jefferson were products of their times who continued or amplified existing trends (for good or evil, and in Hitler's case, I'd say that while Germany almost certainly could have been better, it's not like there were no other demagogues in the Weimar Republic who also would have pushed for horrific policies), whereas say Bismarck or Kim IL-Sung, who had surprising amounts of success in changing history from what would otherwise have been the "established" course. (Bismarck in doing an amazingly successful job at increasing Prussian power, Kim IL-Sung in starting the path to a 'Communist' monarchy). In terms of whether such influential (be they good or bad) people exist, I'd say the answer is undoubtedly yes.
 
Hello everyone,

Something's bugging me. You know about the Great Man fallacy, how it's not one man who can change history but general conditions have more influence.
Yet, there is a number of thread about WI Hitler died, Napoleon didn't decide to go to Russia, etc...

So, what's your opinion on this? Do great men matter or is it just the general conditions of the time?

It's a matter of statistics. The more finely you look, the more Great Man matters. At a thousand years a pop, Great Man is mostly meaningless.

But, it's like the Uncertainty Principle--for sufficiently short time periods, you can get Black Swan events.
 
I find the way to view history as best is through both the "Great Man" theory and "Historical Forces" theory. Sometimes Great Men are created through the forces of their time and sometimes Great Men help create the historical forces that will create the next Great Man.
 
For long term trends, "Great Men" are irrelevant. The more specific you get, the more they matter. To use everyone's favorite evil example, the rise of a revanchist, anti-democratic, and militaristic Germany in the 1930's was almost inevitable and would have happened with or without Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party. The Holocaust, however, and how it came down, was a very specifically Hitlerite evil. Many Jews in Europe would have still been been alive in 1945 if Hitler, with his very specific ideas and demagogic skills was never born.

Would such Germany start first continent then world wide war? Or would such Germany be more limited in its aims? Revising Versailles, remilitarisation of Rheinland, maybe anschluss....but no Lebensraum goal and no war with practically every country on the planet.
 
Would such Germany start first continent then world wide war? Or would such Germany be more limited in its aims? Revising Versailles, remilitarisation of Rheinland, maybe anschluss....but no Lebensraum goal and no war with practically every country on the planet.

If you get so specific that you are describing "our" Second World War with all its specific quirks, Hitler has his stamp all over that. If you are talking about the probability that Germany would lurch toward totalitarianism in the late 1929s and 1930's and attempt to restore Germany's pre-WW1 greatness and power by fighting a war with Britain, France, and probably the USSR if need be, you'd probably have to do more than kill off Hitler in 1910 to eliminate that likelihood. This was made likely by German reaction to Versailles, the Great Depression, and the general rise of fascism and totalitarianism overall. In fact, if you get even less granular, what happens in Germany probably doesn't matter all that much. WW1 and the social, political, and economic upheavals it created and left unresolved probably made a Second Great War inevitable one way or the other even if Germany wasn't the main instigator
 
If you get so specific that you are describing "our" Second World War with all its specific quirks, Hitler has his stamp all over that. If you are talking about the probability that Germany would lurch toward totalitarianism in the late 1929s and 1930's and attempt to restore Germany's pre-WW1 greatness and power by fighting a war with Britain, France, and probably the USSR if need be, you'd probably have to do more than kill off Hitler in 1910 to eliminate that likelihood. This was made likely by German reaction to Versailles, the Great Depression, and the general rise of fascism and totalitarianism overall. In fact, if you get even less granular, what happens in Germany probably doesn't matter all that much. WW1 and the social, political, and economic upheavals it created and left unresolved probably made a Second Great War inevitable one way or the other even if Germany wasn't the main instigator

I disagree. I don't think conditions set by lost WW1 ordained some sort of continent wide war instigated by Germany in next few decades. Authoritarian rule likely. Removal of Versailles as well. But it's quite possible that Germany would play a different role in next decades which would make such war unlikely or at least unrecognisable.
 
As has been said, it's very mixxed. To use the example of Hitler (just because his life is so well known...)

Hitler only rose to power because of events entirely unrelated to his actions. Economic history leading to a failing Germany, a common end ey with establishment forces in communism and the abuse of articles within the Weimar constitution all had precedent before his ability to set precedent.

On the other hand, none of that matters if he chose not to be a nazi. One small choice massively shapes economic and social history after it.
 
Yeah, this reflexion was spurred by War and Peace which kinda bugged me on that matter (and that 50 pages conclusion? Fuck you Tolstoï)

[rant]The way he puts it is that nobody has any influence and nobody actually matters because it's all in the great scheme of things and stuff will happen anyway, so you know, why even bother? Better to have a mildly happy marriage and live in a remote domain. [/rant]
Anyway.

I always liked the quote "Heroes are men thrown in the circumstances"


Well said.:)

As I've said in previous such thread, it's true to a degree. There are people who influence events but they need events to be present in some form or another.

Hitler in different Germany wouldn't be able to do what he did, OTL Germany without Hitler would be soemthing different as well. And you can say that for any crucial period which was influenced by Great Man*. Henry VIII and CoE, French revolution and Napoleon.....

*works for both genders, obvi!

One reason why there are seen to be so few "Great Men" in the Dark Ages.

You could hardly find any time period where Tolstoy was more right about environmental forces shaping the course of history. Consider the Saxon King Alfred the Great. As much of a Great Man as the Dark Ages ever produced, and the only king Britain ever had to be called "Great". Yet upon his death all the many desperately needed reforms he had put into place were immediately abolished, and England went right back into its Dark Ages coma:(

OTOH, a thousand years later, despite Napoleon's being utterly crushed, many of his reforms (the Code Napoleon, medical discoveries, and the metric system, frex) stayed in place.

And heroes stamp their mark on the world by influencing events while men just let the current take them where it will. ;)

Consider:

Lincoln & Grant vs. McClernand & Rosecrans

I've always said that circumstances create Great Men. Like Thomas Jefferson was a Great Man but probably wouldn't have become one had he been, say, a Slave.

That's a pretty extreme example though.

It's surprising to what extremes each factor - individuals and circumstances - can reach.

To take an oft-cited example, what if Catherine of Aragon had been able to produce a male heir? Would Henry have been satisfied to keep Ann Boleyn as a mistress, and would the Church of England thus never exist? Royalty of course have much more power and influence than the average person, but the entire course of world history for the last 500 years rests, at least in part, on accidents of conception and a few momentous decisions by Henry VIII.

The numbers of Lutherans, Calvinists, and sectarians were already exploding in England. They had little reason to let their country be dragged into endless wars on the European Continent, as the Pope and the Hapsburgs wanted. Tolstoy wins this one.

At the other end of the spectrum, no conceivable president or even series of presidents in the history of the 19th-century US could have prevented or derailed the spread of white settlement across the North American continent. Manifest Destiny was such an instantiation of pure demographic momentum (made self-aware through philosophical and historiographical justifications) that the US could have had 25 completely different presidents from OTL during the century, and the pattern of westward expansion would have been largely the same. The Great Man plays almost no part here.

Agreed absolutely.

OTOH, if the nature of the "Three Midwives of the American Civil War" (Fillmore, Pierce, Buchanan) are any measure, the amount of damage one BAD man can wreck, as opposed to the good any number of Great Men may accomplish, is quite terrible. Just look at what happened to Rome. Five Good Emperor's works ruined by the brief misrule of just one.:(

Great men can alter currents. They cannot create currents. Conversely currents are directed by Great men, they have no goals on their own. (1)

1) :confused: No Great Men with goals of their own? Is this a typo?:confused: No sarcasm intended here.:eek:
 
The "Great Man" hypothesis is poorly named, for obscure individuals lost to the history books can change events in a huge way and asking a question about a "fallacy" prejudges the situation. Better to use the word "theory" or "hypothesis"

Can I assume my royalty check is in the mail?:p
 
Agreed absolutely.

OTOH, if the nature of the "Three Midwives of the American Civil War" (Fillmore, Pierce, Buchanan) are any measure, the amount of damage one BAD man can wreck, as opposed to the good any number of Great Men may accomplish, is quite terrible. Just look at what happened to Rome. Five Good Emperor's works ruined by the brief misrule of just one.:(
That kinda seems like a recurring theme in history: sometimes you need a lot of Great Men to maintain the status quo (de Gaulle for French power after WWII, Talleyrand after Napoléon) but one incompetent to throw everything down, or even one incompetent moment (Raj of Benghal when he sold the Diwali to the India Company)
 
Well said.:)



One reason why there are seen to be so few "Great Men" in the Dark Ages.

You could hardly find any time period where Tolstoy was more right about environmental forces shaping the course of history. Consider the Saxon King Alfred the Great. As much of a Great Man as the Dark Ages ever produced, and the only king Britain ever had to be called "Great". Yet upon his death all the many desperately needed reforms he had put into place were immediately abolished, and England went right back into its Dark Ages coma

Sorry to go OT - but this is so wrong I had to. The impact of Alfred's successors (especially Aethelflaed the lady of Mercia and Aethelstan) would have been impossible if Wessex and Mercia had been in a "coma" - it was Alfred's successors who maintained the burh system, the navy, the alliances between the southern kingdoms and the integrity of those kingdoms themselves, before taking the next steps and forming England itself from the Anglo and Danish lands of the island. There's no way a family that squandered what Alfrs hd done could have fired a unified Kingdom of England from what he left as still disparate parts.

Also, On topic, long term forces cause the scene in which people act, including the characters of the actors. But the way they move is down to them, which alters how the events play out.
 
One reason why there are seen to be so few "Great Men" in the Dark Ages.

Depends on what you see as "Dark ages" but you have Charlemagne, William the conqueror, Saladin, various crusaders etc. And that jsut Europe and near by.

You could hardly find any time period where Tolstoy was more right about environmental forces shaping the course of history. Consider the Saxon King Alfred the Great. As much of a Great Man as the Dark Ages ever produced, and the only king Britain ever had to be called "Great". Yet upon his death all the many desperately needed reforms he had put into place were immediately abolished, and England went right back into its Dark Ages coma:(

Then again, what William the Conqueror did is still felt today, so....

OTOH, a thousand years later, despite Napoleon's being utterly crushed, many of his reforms (the Code Napoleon, medical discoveries, and the metric system, frex) stayed in place.


And Hitler's legacy was actively dismantled right after his death as well

Consider:

Lincoln & Grant vs. McClernand & Rosecrans

2 US presidents vs some guy I never heard of and minor character from Hamlet :confused:
 
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