There were very little the Church's lands, when compared with Western neighbours. In GDL there were even less the Church's lands. That made situation for all churches very similar, they were dependent on their noble patrons.
How do we get Poland to convert to Protestantism?
- Thread starter Valdemar II
- Start date
Sorry about that. I was in doubt somewhat following your initial thread.
How about something related to hussites? Maybe some pastors or such figures of 'em or successing churches have to flee north, or travel, and... it get popular, especialy since it seems 'slavic' as well.
Of course, Lithuania had minimal church lands because it was a recent convert, and they converted to keep Church agents (i.e., the Knights) out.
It seems that Poland had a local version of Cuius regio, eius religio. The Warsaw Confederation signed the 28th of January 1573.
This principe applied to smaller territories than in the HRE, because in Poland, it was the szlachta family who decide to convert or not and the peasants need to follow the will of their masters.
I speaking about szlachta families who own importants properties, lands in scale of one or severals villages. Not the most humble ones, who were sometimes as poor as simple peasants. I imagined that the poorer part of szlachta will follow the conversion of the wealthier ones. Or not and it will a possibility of a religious war in the country as the rich and the townpeople will convert and not the poor szlachta and the peasants for example.
But you need to find an reason for all the magnates families and the middle class szlachta to convert to protestantism.
Financial argument seems not to be a possibility, because it seems, the Church were not very rich and there were little to confisct.
The best POD will be a polish born religious reformers similar to Martin Luther, John Calvin or Thomas Cranmer to become the leader of the Polish Reformation.
This principe applied to smaller territories than in the HRE, because in Poland, it was the szlachta family who decide to convert or not and the peasants need to follow the will of their masters.
I speaking about szlachta families who own importants properties, lands in scale of one or severals villages. Not the most humble ones, who were sometimes as poor as simple peasants. I imagined that the poorer part of szlachta will follow the conversion of the wealthier ones. Or not and it will a possibility of a religious war in the country as the rich and the townpeople will convert and not the poor szlachta and the peasants for example.
But you need to find an reason for all the magnates families and the middle class szlachta to convert to protestantism.
Financial argument seems not to be a possibility, because it seems, the Church were not very rich and there were little to confisct.
The best POD will be a polish born religious reformers similar to Martin Luther, John Calvin or Thomas Cranmer to become the leader of the Polish Reformation.
Originally posted by Intosh
Are you sure? IIRC Warsaw Confederation guaranteed religious freedom to all free men. I do not remember anything about peasants being forced to follow their masters' religion. However, they were not allowed to use religion as a pretext to disobbey them.
Are you sure? IIRC Warsaw Confederation guaranteed religious freedom to all free men. I do not remember anything about peasants being forced to follow their masters' religion. However, they were not allowed to use religion as a pretext to disobbey them.
Faeelin
Banned
Would it be Lutheran national Church? I wonder if Poland would end up very Anglican (or early Anglicanism at any rate).
I wonder about the notion that Protestant-more education. I wonder how the Calvinist parts of Hungary compared to the Catholic parts...
Valdemar II
Banned
I think it will end up High Anglican-like, but I think the Lutherans would accept its authority if it kept away from the Lutherans theology. Through with a strong Lutheran minority in the west, I could see Lutheran ideas becoming more popular than in the Anglican church.
No idea, I know that in Poland the Jesuit did deliver the best (and cheapest) education, which was a important reason that the lesser nobility reconverted. In Hungary with a smaller nobility and fewer poor noble I don't think it was a important issue to the same extent.
Yes, its true. The Warsaw Confederation was towards religious tolerance and not forcing.
If going in line of the growing religious tolerance in Poland-Lithuania it would be easier to have a part of the szlachta and magnates be Protestant/Calvinist along with the Royal family (at least in outer appearance). This way it would be recognized by other rulers in Europe as a nominal Protestant/Calvinist State.
Its not like in Germany the lower nobility and peasant practiced entirely the same faith as their rulers. Especially in areas that had the potential to switch several times in a person's lifetime.
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MarshalBraginsky
Banned
With Poland a Protestant state and most of Belarus and Ukraine under its rule, I wonder if Russia would end up as the lone Orthodox superpower as a result. I believe Latvia and Estonia could also join this Protestant Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, if given the right incentives.
Latvia and Estonia depending on what year you are talking about were under the control of the Teutonic Order (Knights), Livonian Order than Livonian Confederation, Poland-Lithuania, Sweden, Russia. Latvia and Estonia as separate independent states are relatively recent.
Russia in OTL was the lone Orthodox superpower.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
So if Poland and Lithuania becomes Protestant, would they be able to survive long enough to avoid partition?
Even if the Warsaw Confederation don't force peasants to adopt their master religion, I think that if the szlachta and the clergy in one region converted to a new faith, calvinism or a polish version of anglican style religion, the peasants have no choice but to follow their masters.
The exception is in the eastern polish Ukraine where only a part of szlachta, for exemple the Wisniowiecki family, converted to the catholic religion. While the orthodox clergy remain powerful and important magnate family (Ostrogski) still supported this clergy...
With the Union of Bresc, the orthodox clergy of the western parts of Ruthenia accepted the control of the Pope and with the conversion of the clergy, follow the conversion of the szlachta and then the peasants.
I think if your local church change of faith and you can find no other church to practice your own faith, you have little choice but to convert. Of course, the two faiths will not be too different...
I think that could easily be butterflied away. A protestant Poland would suddenly have a very different diplomatic relationships, having closer relations with the protestant states of Germany, the Netherlands, England, Scotland and Scandinavia than the catholic powers. With different relations the partition could be butterflied away.
This reminds me, would a protestant Poland still intervene during the siege of Vienna? Protestant nations often prefered Muslims over Catholics.
Would depend more on the geopolitical considerations of the time - remember Catholic France was the first major Christian power to ally with the Sublime Porte. If they see that Vienna falling is a worse thing for them then rescuing the Habsburgs may not seem so far-fetched. And by 1683 practically every European nation ignored religious qualms to band against France.
Valdemar II
Banned
Thanks
Of course that's going to turn the situation in eastern PL a lot uglier, luckily the Russians are to weak at this point to intervene, so it gives PL a century to deal with the ugliness.
Valdemar II
Banned
I think that a protestant Poland would not only survive to 1772, but it would also thrieve, in fact Poland will likely end up a major power in the 18th century.
Eh, as pointed by posters of the past, geography and such screw Poland as well. Russia is CLOSE. As Germany.
Christians nations do fight christian nations. And Protestants would gladly screw Protestants, even if this means alliying with 'Papists' or 'Eastern heretics' if there is a gain...
Valdemar II
Banned
So what, if we had integrated the Danish, Prussian or Swedish 18th century structure of governance in 18th century Poland, there was no way Russia would partitioned it, in fact it could have field a army several times the size of the French (through that's unlikely). That's what people fail to recognise, that Poland's main problem wasn't geographic they were fundamental internal, and replacing Catholism with Protestantism could be a big enough shock to the system to let Poland reform.