How could Germany defeat the USSR in WWII?

[Pax Britannia]

Yes, that is what I am saying, and it is born out by the Soviet overtures offering the Brest-Litovsk territories in October being unceremoniously and dismissively ignored altogether by the Nazis. If they were ever interested, October 1941 was a great time to do it. They weren't, they wanted a peace of the graveyard.

Then you are misinformed. Thanks for ignoring everything i've just said.

Germany did not want conquest, they were deliberately engaging in a Vernichtungskrieg. I am using that word as it is what they themselves did. The burden of proof is on you to claim that their genocidal plans either were an "accident" or that they didn't intend them. Especially when we factor in that 3 million POWs of the Soviet Army died in the first six months and this factor more than anything else underscored to the Soviets that it was either a penal battalion or Hitler starving them to death or simply fighting Hitler.

I am literally speechless. I have not denied the genocidal intentions of the Nazi's. What i'm trying to open your mind to is the fact that there was a loose guide to the end of the war. Hitler had borders in mind for a post war period.

If you want to throw the "burden of proof" on me then fine. Here's a Wiki entry that took two seconds to find: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Germanic_Reich

God there's even a map.

This really is starting to get awkward.

 

[Snake Featherston]

Then you are misinformed. Thanks for ignoring everything i've just said.

Because I happen to be read and versed on the exact goals you're denying existed, as well as on the reality of the Soviet war effort. There were plenty of chances IOTL for the Nazis to find a negotiated peace with the USSR if that was what they were after. They rejected them, so they very much weren't looking for it.

I am literally speechless. I have not denied the genocidal intentions of the Nazi's. What i'm trying to open your mind to is the fact that there was a loose guide to the end of the war. Hitler had borders in mind for a post war period.

If you want to throw the "burden of proof" on me then fine. Here's a Wiki entry that took two seconds to find: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Germanic_Reich

God there's even a map.

This really is starting to get awkward.

It got awkward when you said the following historically and factually incorrect statements: 1) that the Vernichtungskrieg concept did not exist, 2) that the Germans were ever interested in adhering a treaty they'd stick to, and 3) that the Soviets offering such offers would ever lead Hitler to accept them. The only peace the Nazis will accept is the annihilation of Slavs in Europe. They made this explicitly clear, nd were quite intent on carrying it out. Why this is so hard for people on AH.com to accept I am not sure I want to understand.

 

[Pax Britannia]

Because I happen to be read and versed on the exact goals you're denying existed, as well as on the reality of the Soviet war effort. There were plenty of chances IOTL for the Nazis to find a negotiated peace with the USSR if that was what they were after. They rejected them, so they very much weren't looking for it.

But they werent the terms the Nazi's were after. They wanted ALL of European Russia not just the Ukraine, Belarus and the Baltic states.

It got awkward when you said the following historically and factually incorrect statements: 1) that the Vernichtungskrieg concept did not exist, 2) that the Germans were ever interested in adhering a treaty they'd stick to, and 3) that the Soviets offering such offers would ever lead Hitler to accept them.

1:

I have not denied the genocidal intentions of the Nazi's. .

2: I'm not saying they would have held to the terms forever. Hitler himself said treaties were only as useful for as long as they were of benefit to Germany. I'm saying there was a plan in place, all be it a loose one.
3: The entirety of European Russia, the smashing of Soviet power and the opportunity to turn his focus to the Western Allies? Absolutely. The Empire in the East he always dreamed of would be at hand.

Honestly mate I'm not saying you're wrong, you are 100% correct. The Nazi's wanted to annihilate the Slavs. All i'm trying to say to you is behind all that race war rhetoric was a semi-realistic war aim.

 

[Snake Featherston]

But they werent the terms the Nazi's were after. They wanted ALL of European Russia not just the Ukraine, Belarus and the Baltic states.

And all the Judaeo-Bolsheviks dead, to boot. Your refusal to see this point as the applicable one does not mean it did not exist.

1:
2: I'm not saying they would have held to the terms forever. Hitler himself said treaties were only as useful for as long as they were of benefit to Germany. I'm saying there was a plan in place, all be it a loose one.
3: The entirety of European Russia, the smashing of Soviet power and the opportunity to turn his focus to the Western Allies? Absolutely. The Empire in the East he always dreamed of would be at hand.

Honestly mate I'm not saying you're wrong, you are 100% correct. The Nazi's wanted to annihilate the Slavs. All i'm trying to say to you is behind all that race war rhetoric was a semi-realistic war aim.

Then why did the Nazis rebuff the October peace offers? It wouldn't have been the first time Germans used peace to gain what they weren't able to do by war.

 

[Pax Britannia]

And all the Judaeo-Bolsheviks dead, to boot. Your refusal to see this point as the applicable one does not mean it did not exist.

Honestly mate I'm not saying you're wrong, you are 100% correct. The Nazi's wanted to annihilate the Slavs.

Then why did the Nazis rebuff the October peace offers? It wouldn't have been the first time Germans used peace to gain what they weren't able to do by war.

But they werent the terms the Nazi's were after. They wanted ALL of European Russia not just the Ukraine, Belarus and the Baltic states.

Do you even read my posts?

I honestly don't know what else to say. I acknowledge your point and agree 100% but you continually ignore mine and beat the same drum about Vernichtungskrieg over and over again as if that's the only thing you've ever heard about Nazi policy regarding Eastern Europe.

 

[Snake Featherston]

Do you even read my posts?

I honestly don't know what else to say. I acknowledge your point and agree 100% but you continually ignore mine and beat the same drum about Vernichtungskrieg over and over again as if that's the only thing you've ever heard about Nazi policy regarding Eastern Europe.

Because you provide no sources to claim the Nazis seriously considered a peace in Europe that wasn't predicated on the complete destruction of the Slavs, meaning you're arguing with me on a basis of either historical negationism or just arguing for argument's sake. If you agree with me 100%, why are you claiming that there is more to Nazi policy then what we already agree is that policy?

 

[Pax Britannia]

Because you provide no sources to claim the Nazis seriously considered a peace in Europe that wasn't predicated on the complete destruction of the Slavs, meaning you're arguing with me on a basis of either historical negationism or just arguing for argument's sake. If you agree with me 100%, why are you claiming that there is more to Nazi policy then what we already agree is that policy?

So you are willfully ignoring the Wiki article I supplied and the sources referenced in it's bibliography? Excellent.

 

[Snake Featherston]

So you are willfully ignoring the Wiki article I supplied and the sources referenced in it's bibliography? Excellent.

I don't trust Wikipedia on anything not popular culture, especially when it comes to the Nazis and WWII.

 

[Pax Britannia]

Remarkable.

I guess we have no more to discuss then

 

[b12ox]

what exactly is that october peace agreement Stalin offered. Whatever Stalin could offer it was not something that would secure peace on the eastern front. All it could do was to postpone war buisness for a while, a month or two, or until spring. Pacts beetwen Stalin and Hitler, like any other poitical pacts and declarations of the day were not meant to offer what they were saying. They were meant to deceive to work out a diplomatic advantage. Hitler knew he was in trouble in October. Germans themselves admited that winning this war by force was not any more possible. He was presented with estimations by a special commition sent to the east led by Todd as to the chances of winning the war. Point blank hew was told that the war was lost. Political settlment was out of question for Hitler because no one would give him peace at this point of the game. Stalins proposals would confuse Hiler even more. His proposals were as sicere as Hitlers offer to Russia to join the axis a few days before the campaign.Hitlers decision to give green light to the Taifoon despite all the warnings and seeing how bloody it had been so far means he had no illusions of what an agreement with Stain would be like. In fact if he had postponed Tajfoon and waited, he would have achived the same what any pact with Stalin would give him, a break. He was not intrested in it, correctly guessing what Russians were capable of producing in short time. They destroyed thousands of tanks and armor for a reason and in the process realised that given the break in the war they would have to do it again and this time Russian weaponry would not be a scrapyard of obsolete designs.

 

[Snake Featherston]

what exactly is that october peace agreement Stalin offered. Whatever Stalin could offer it was not something that would secure peace on the eastern front. All it could do was to postpone war buisness for a while, a month or two, or until spring. Pacts beetwen Stalin and Hitler, like any other poitical pacts and declarations of the day were not meant to offer what they were saying. They were meant to deceive to work out a diplomatic advantage. Hitler knew he was in trouble in October. Germans themselves admited that winning this war by force was not any more possible. He was presented with estimations by a special commition sent to the east led by Todd as to the chances of winning the war. Point blank hew was told that the war was lost. Political settlment was out of question for Hitler because no one would give him peace at this point of the game. Stalins proposals would confuse Hiler even more. His proposals were as sicere as Hitlers offer to Russia to join the axis a few days before the campaign.Hitlers decision to give green light to the Taifoon despite all the warnings and seeing how bloody it had been so far means he had no illusions of what an agreement with Stain would be like. In fact if he had postponed Tajfoon and waited, he would have achived the same what any pact with Stalin would give him, a break. He was not intrested in it, correctly guessing what Russians were capable of producing in short time. They destroyed thousands of tanks and armor for a reason and in the process realised that given the break in the war they would have to do it again and this time Russian weaponry would not be a scrapyard of obsolete designs.

He offered Hitler the Brest-Litovsk negotiation lines, which if the Nazis really were interested in any kind of peace and the parts of Russia worth looting would have given them those parts free of charge. He was also engaging in negotiations in 1943, when the Nazis still had a chance to win or to stalemate the West, though they'd lost in the East in 1942. If Hitler was civilized enough to sign and adhere to an agreement he had two chances. He refused both of them.

 

[Clandango]

Because I happen to be read and versed on the exact goals you're denying existed, as well as on the reality of the Soviet war effort. There were plenty of chances IOTL for the Nazis to find a negotiated peace with the USSR if that was what they were after. They rejected them, so they very much weren't looking for it.



It got awkward when you said the following historically and factually incorrect statements: 1) that the Vernichtungskrieg concept did not exist, 2) that the Germans were ever interested in adhering a treaty they'd stick to, and 3) that the Soviets offering such offers would ever lead Hitler to accept them. The only peace the Nazis will accept is the annihilation of Slavs in Europe. They made this explicitly clear, nd were quite intent on carrying it out. Why this is so hard for people on AH.com to accept I am not sure I want to understand.

They did not want to kill all the Slavs. They wanted them as workers. They also were of the opinion that large chunk of them could be Germanised, especially the children, to make up the numbers that their own population could not come up with. That, and their own Germans didn't want to leave their cities to go to some place razed farmland. Hitler apparently had come to believe that Slavs were not a race so much as a linguistic group, which is why he accepted the Croats saying they were Goths and pushing the Bulgarians to change their alphabet.

 

[Clandango]

He offered Hitler the Brest-Litovsk negotiation lines, which if the Nazis really were interested in any kind of peace and the parts of Russia worth looting would have given them those parts free of charge. He was also engaging in negotiations in 1943, when the Nazis still had a chance to win or to stalemate the West, though they'd lost in the East in 1942. If Hitler was civilized enough to sign and adhere to an agreement he had two chances. He refused both of them.

Where did you find this information?

 

[Snake Featherston]

They did not want to kill all the Slavs. They wanted them as workers. They also were of the opinion that large chunk of them could be Germanised, especially the children, to make up the numbers that their own population could not come up with. That, and their own Germans didn't want to leave their cities to go to some place razed farmland. Hitler apparently had come to believe that Slavs were not a race so much as a linguistic group, which is why he accepted the Croats saying they were Goths and pushing the Bulgarians to change their alphabet.

I don't think we should trust Hitler in terms of what he was willing to do in the short term for his allies. I again see this reflexive unwillingness to assume that when the Nazis were planning wholesale slaughter of a minimum of 30 million and perhaps up to 75 million people that they really didn't mean it.....

Where did you find this information?

David Glantz's histories of the Soviet war effort.

 

[Clandango]

I don't think we should trust Hitler in terms of what he was willing to do in the short term for his allies. I again see this reflexive unwillingness to assume that when the Nazis were planning wholesale slaughter of a minimum of 30 million and perhaps up to 75 million people that they really didn't mean it.....

Please don't act high and mighty. They classified the Sioux, Tibetans, Japanese, Berbers, Incans, Mayans, Gypsies, and Iranians as Aryan. I don't see why they wouldn't allow two cultures who could draw history back to centuries before the word Slav was ever spoken to continue to exist in areas that they didn't care about.

David Glantz's histories of the Soviet war effort.

Could you be more specific? He has written a lot.

 

[Snake Featherston]

Please don't act high and mighty. They classified the Sioux, Tibetans, Japanese, Berbers, Incans, Mayans, Gypsies, and Iranians as Aryan. I don't see why they wouldn't allow two cultures who could draw history back to centuries before the word Slav was ever spoken to continue to exist in areas that they didn't care about.

I take it you know nothing of how the Supermen acted in Italy, a supposed ally of theirs, or in Hungary, eh?

Could you be more specific? He has written a lot.

Clash of Titans.

 

[lucaswillen05]

Depends how we define a German victory.After Moscow and Stalingrad any chance of an outright German victory under which terms can be dictated to a defeated Soviet Uniion Brest Litovsk style is pretty much an impossibility. But,prior to the summer of 1943 the Germans could still win a minor victory big enough to either hold on to some territory such as the Ukraine and the \Baltic States or negotiate some/all of it away in return for peace. To do this the Wehrmacht hasto win at least one big battlefield victory. Either Manstein gets to try his "Backhand Blow" and scores a great victory destroying large mobile Soviet forces or Citadel has to succeed achieving the same sort of outcome.Then both sides have to be prepared to make and accept a negotiated peace. If this happens some territorial concessions might have to be made. Final outcome maybe the Germans pull back to th Dneiper and Baltic States which becomes the new frontier.

 

[Snake Featherston]

Depends how we define a German victory.After Moscow and Stalingrad any chance of an outright German victory under which terms can be dictated to a defeated Soviet Uniion Brest Litovsk style is pretty much an impossibility. But,prior to the summer of 1943 the Germans could still win a minor victory big enough to either hold on to some territory such as the Ukraine and the \Baltic States or negotiate some/all of it away in return for peace. To do this the Wehrmacht hasto win at least one big battlefield victory. Either Manstein gets to try his "Backhand Blow" and scores a great victory destroying large mobile Soviet forces or Citadel has to succeed achieving the same sort of outcome.Then both sides have to be prepared to make and accept a negotiated peace. If this happens some territorial concessions might have to be made. Final outcome maybe the Germans pull back to th Dneiper and Baltic States which becomes the new frontier.

The Germans were never going to dictate a Brest-Litovsk. They were going to erect cities on hills built on new-found Golgothas. They had a chance to do this in October of 1941, and the Soviets were very sincere about the offer, the Nazis crudely dismissed it altogether. The only negotiated peace Nazis understood was Germany reduced altogether to rubble and charred ashes.

 

[Clandango]

I take it you know nothing of how the Supermen acted in Italy, a supposed ally of theirs, or in Hungary, eh?

I know what they did. However it wasn't until they attempted to switch sides that they did that, at which points they were frankly enemies.

 

[Clandango]

The Germans were never going to dictate a Brest-Litovsk. They were going to erect cities on hills built on new-found Golgothas. They had a chance to do this in October of 1941, and the Soviets were very sincere about the offer, the Nazis crudely dismissed it altogether. The only negotiated peace Nazis understood was Germany reduced altogether to rubble and charred ashes.

Germany reduced to what now?