Hitler invades Switzerland
- Thread starter Melvin Loh
- Start date
While true, I could see a war between the Axis and the Swiss if all other enemies in Europe have been vanquished.
That said, an appeasing Switzerland would be in the interest of Germany even more.
The Germans and Italians actually had made up plans in early 1940 for a combined invasion of Switzerland. Luftwaffe planes flew reconnaissance missions over Switzerland and about a dozen of them were shot down by the Swiss Air Force.
What gave the Axis dictators pause was the very poor showing of Italian troops against the French Alpine fortresses after Mussolini declared war on France and attacked in the south. At that point (early-mid 1940), Italian troops hadn’t yet acquired their reputation as complete and utter rubbish (barring individual divisions), so this came as a shock. Eventually, the plan was dropped.
Had the actual invasion commenced, my money would have been on the Germans. The Swiss had a large and decently trained mountain army but lacked modern weapons, tactics and sufficient supplies for a prolonged struggle. The Germans showed in the Balkans and especially against Greece what they could do against mountain troops in mountainous terrain. Nothing suggests that the Swiss would have done better than the Greeks against a rampaging Wehrmacht.
As to suggestions that a mass guerrilla war would have ensued, I consider that unlikely.
A modern, westernized population does not easily switch to guerrilla war, especially if treated reasonably well. Once the Swiss army had been defeated (and presumably a legitimate government of sorts had surrendered), the population would have no incentive or motivation to risk their lives. And in 1940, there would have been no allies, no genuine reason to believe resistance would bring anything more than increased and prolonged suffering.
What gave the Axis dictators pause was the very poor showing of Italian troops against the French Alpine fortresses after Mussolini declared war on France and attacked in the south. At that point (early-mid 1940), Italian troops hadn’t yet acquired their reputation as complete and utter rubbish (barring individual divisions), so this came as a shock. Eventually, the plan was dropped.
Had the actual invasion commenced, my money would have been on the Germans. The Swiss had a large and decently trained mountain army but lacked modern weapons, tactics and sufficient supplies for a prolonged struggle. The Germans showed in the Balkans and especially against Greece what they could do against mountain troops in mountainous terrain. Nothing suggests that the Swiss would have done better than the Greeks against a rampaging Wehrmacht.
As to suggestions that a mass guerrilla war would have ensued, I consider that unlikely.
A modern, westernized population does not easily switch to guerrilla war, especially if treated reasonably well. Once the Swiss army had been defeated (and presumably a legitimate government of sorts had surrendered), the population would have no incentive or motivation to risk their lives. And in 1940, there would have been no allies, no genuine reason to believe resistance would bring anything more than increased and prolonged suffering.
Max Sinister
Banned
Does anyone know how many tanks, artillery and so on the Swiss had in 1940?
I think it would go like that:
The Germans would invade and bring the cities, plains and streets under their control, but the Swiss in the mountains would start a guerilla war that'd take a heavy toll on the Germans. Tito did the same in Yugoslavia, and Switzerland is even more mountainous.
I think it would go like that:
The Germans would invade and bring the cities, plains and streets under their control, but the Swiss in the mountains would start a guerilla war that'd take a heavy toll on the Germans. Tito did the same in Yugoslavia, and Switzerland is even more mountainous.
There's one small problem--the legit government said in advance that any surrender message was false.
That would mean that the central government, even if it decided to surrender, would not be able to do so effectively, if you get my drift.
That would mean that the central government, even if it decided to surrender, would not be able to do so effectively, if you get my drift.
Max Sinister
Banned
I know, I know (didn't I mention this bit of information in some earlier Operation Tannenbaum thread first?). But still - the rebels need to eat something, and although high mountains make good defences, you can't grow food there. That's a problem. The civilians in the occupied parts would support them, but the nazis would keep an eye on them.
I know they had the same aircraft the Germans did--I think they bought them from them.
Of course, if it comes to a war of attrition, the Germans will win.
I believe the Swiss had a plan to dynamite mountain passes in the event of wartime. Unless the Germans can paratroop in and prevent this (which is possible, although the Swiss would have seen it done in France and would know what to expect), the Germans' mobility might suffer severely.
Oops. Sorry.
Did the Swiss have food and ammo stashes in the mountains? It would be a very bad idea to build these elaborate mountain redoubts and then not stock them properly.
That´s a bit of a problem with the "unaccessible mountain redoubts". It´s also hard to get out of them, lowering their military worth as bases for guerilla.
Come to think of it, a fortress which can be defended by 2 people can also be laid siege to by 3.
The swiss resistance would soon start to lack significant supplies, and the isolated nature makes it hard to exchange information, personal or supplies.
Come to think of it, a fortress which can be defended by 2 people can also be laid siege to by 3.
The swiss resistance would soon start to lack significant supplies, and the isolated nature makes it hard to exchange information, personal or supplies.
You forget that most Swiss are German, thus the Nazis wouldn't behave like in the Eastern, Slavic parts.
Pretty soon most cities and plains would be in German hands, and the mountain fortresses are besieged. Then the Germans have the choice: attacking until the end, or just let them sit up there in inaccessible, uninteresting areas while using the industries of the lowlands. I doubt that there would be a much larger resistance than in other Western European countries, I'd rather say it would be smaller with most resistance fighters retreated to the mountains.
Thus with time passing by, what's the point of sitting up there in small, dark bunkers and waiting for the Germans to retreat voluntarily while the families of the fighters up there might be in the hands of SS?
Pretty soon most cities and plains would be in German hands, and the mountain fortresses are besieged. Then the Germans have the choice: attacking until the end, or just let them sit up there in inaccessible, uninteresting areas while using the industries of the lowlands. I doubt that there would be a much larger resistance than in other Western European countries, I'd rather say it would be smaller with most resistance fighters retreated to the mountains.
Thus with time passing by, what's the point of sitting up there in small, dark bunkers and waiting for the Germans to retreat voluntarily while the families of the fighters up there might be in the hands of SS?
Well no bank safet for the Nazis...
After all Hitler wouldnt risk a war with a well trained army... he would beat them of course but it would be a waist of time... he had more important things to do...
After all Hitler wouldnt risk a war with a well trained army... he would beat them of course but it would be a waist of time... he had more important things to do...
Hmm.I envision this being a mistake for Hitler,it is technically a strategic victory for Germany over Switzerland,in the larger scheme of things this hurts Hitler a lot.I think what will happen is kind of an parellel to the Russian-Finland war,while Russia officially won,with a small amount of territory going to Russia,it was a Finn victory in the larger strategy,as it did a lot of damage to the Soviet forces and brought to light just how weak the Soviet military had become post-purge,giving Germany the confidence to go on the attack against them.Switzerland will hold in the face of a tough guerilla war,with perhaps just a slight concession.Germany will have taken unneccesarily large casualties and would have had to pull a number of troops off somewhere else in order to do this,so they hurt themselves in the long run.
Bavarian Raven
Banned
this is an old posting but u guys are missing something...nearly forty-forty five percent of the population were in favor of the Nazis and probably would have supported them...giving Hitler an advantage,,,
,,,
,,,this is an old posting but u guys are missing something...nearly forty-forty five percent of the population were in favor of the Nazis and probably would have supported them...giving Hitler an advantage,,,
Never heard of that figure--I recall in "Target Switzerland" that there was only a small Nazi presence in Switzerland and they all got jailed.
Of course, I read it some years ago, so my memory might be a little fuzzy.
Alcuin
Banned
Tyrolia
Okay, Tyrolia's over the border in Austria but the events of 1809 might prove instructive. Napoleon Bonaparte decided to give Tyrolia to his ally, Bavaria. A Tyrolian Innkeeper named Andreas Hofer decided this was not to be, and for months, the Tyrolians, armed only with a few obsolete hunting rifles and pitchforks, drove off the Bavarian forces.
The Swiss, especially the German speaking ones, would remember how Hofer turned Tyrolia into a land in which every hut and every tree was a fortress, and how, after Hofer's martyrdom, more rose to take his place.
The Swiss would fight as fiercely as the workers and students who took guns from dead members of the Red Army to defend the tractor factories at Stalingrad.
Added to this, the terrain in Switzerland would have made an invasion using tanks very difficult if not impossible. This would have to be an invasion using unprotected infantry into an area where every tree might have held a sniper.
Okay, Tyrolia's over the border in Austria but the events of 1809 might prove instructive. Napoleon Bonaparte decided to give Tyrolia to his ally, Bavaria. A Tyrolian Innkeeper named Andreas Hofer decided this was not to be, and for months, the Tyrolians, armed only with a few obsolete hunting rifles and pitchforks, drove off the Bavarian forces.
The Swiss, especially the German speaking ones, would remember how Hofer turned Tyrolia into a land in which every hut and every tree was a fortress, and how, after Hofer's martyrdom, more rose to take his place.
The Swiss would fight as fiercely as the workers and students who took guns from dead members of the Red Army to defend the tractor factories at Stalingrad.
Added to this, the terrain in Switzerland would have made an invasion using tanks very difficult if not impossible. This would have to be an invasion using unprotected infantry into an area where every tree might have held a sniper.
Grey Wolf
Donor
Funny, I was thinking about this this morning after reading in Schellenberg's Memoirs the somewhat self-aggrandizing claim that he alone dissuaded Hitler from a preventive occupation of Switzerland. Since it was covered in only a paragraph or so, it seemed to me as if Hitler probably mentioned it in a throw-away comment or in the middle of a rant, and Schellenberg pointed out the potential difficulties and the losses (in benefits from Switzerland remaining neutral) that would accrue
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
Bavarian Raven
Banned
...it was on a history channel program a while ago about the prewar germany...in 1939-before the war started, the nazis held a vote in switzerland to see if the country would like to join the greater german empire... ...and they almost had a majority....of course that might have changed once the actual war began...but nevertheless...if switzerland hadjoined with nazi germany...they would have had hundreds of thousands of more men they could have used as soldiers on the eastern and later on, the western front, and that could have changed the outcome of the war...
...and they almost had a majority....of course that might have changed once the actual war began...but nevertheless...if switzerland hadjoined with nazi germany...they would have had hundreds of thousands of more men they could have used as soldiers on the eastern and later on, the western front, and that could have changed the outcome of the war...