He112 V10 vs Bf109E

"The RLM had already contracted for another six He 112s, so production of the prototypes continued. V10 was supposed to receive the 670 kW (960 hp) Junkers Jumo 211A (Junker's new DB 600 competitor), but the engine was not available in time and V10 instead received the new 876 kW (1,175 hp) DB 601Aa. The engine drove V10 to 570 km/h (350 mph) and increased climb rate significantly. V11 was also supposed to get the Jumo 211A, but instead received the DB 601Aa."
Wikipedia

I have looked around a bit but failed to find much information regarding the qualities of the DB601Aa engined He112 prototypes. Does anyone have information on how it compared with the Bf109E?
 
I believe a better comparison would be the HE 100 vs the Bf 109.
The He 112 wasn't a really good airplane, the -derivative- He 100 much superior to the Bf 109.
 
I believe a better comparison would be the HE 100 vs the Bf 109.
The He 112 wasn't a really good airplane, the -derivative- He 100 much superior to the Bf 109.

I know. But the He112 V10 was earlier, and therefore can be included in earlier PODs. It was also ofered for export more agressively. I'm interrested in aicraft that could have been delivered to export costumers before war started.
 

Cook

Banned
I tried to track down some information on the He 112 after reading James Holland's The Battle of Britain, and couldn't find anything ether. This is what Holland had to say regarding it:

'The Me 109 had been given the nod for single-seat fighter production, even though Heinkel had produced a model, the He 112, which was 50 mph faster. When Heinkel protested, Udet's office forbade him to pursue the matter... It just so happened that not only was Professor Messerschmitt Hitler's favourite designer, but he was also a personal friend of Udet's.'

I don't know which engine version is being referred to here.
 
I tried to track down some information on the He 112 after reading James Holland's The Battle of Britain, and couldn't find anything ether. This is what Holland had to say regarding it:

'The Me 109 had been given the nod for single-seat fighter production, even though Heinkel had produced a model, the He 112, which was 50 mph faster. When Heinkel protested, Udet's office forbade him to pursue the matter... It just so happened that not only was Professor Messerschmitt Hitler's favourite designer, but he was also a personal friend of Udet's.'

I don't know which engine version is being referred to here.

Probably threw better parties for H. Goering too.
 

Deleted member 1487

I believe a better comparison would be the HE 100 vs the Bf 109.
The He 112 wasn't a really good airplane, the -derivative- He 100 much superior to the Bf 109.

Much superior? It was pretty much topped out in terms of development, while the BF109 was only getting into its grove.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_100#He_100_D-1
The war was already on when it was ready, so it didn't make sense to put it into production when the superior FW190 was on its way and retooling the Bf109 production line would be difficult to say the least in the midst of a shooting war; there was a reason this aircraft remained in production throughout the war rather than being replaced.
 

iddt3

Donor
There was a hilarious comic I ran into a while back on the process of Nazi procurement polices. It had Hermann Goering demanding more guns be mounted on some over armored jet monstrosity that never took off, then being distracted by Messerschmitt offering him cake.
 
Much superior? It was pretty much topped out in terms of development, while the BF109 was only getting into its grove.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_100#He_100_D-1
The war was already on when it was ready, so it didn't make sense to put it into production when the superior FW190 was on its way and retooling the Bf109 production line would be difficult to say the least in the midst of a shooting war; there was a reason this aircraft remained in production throughout the war rather than being replaced.

The Bf109 was arguably the early WW2 fighter with the better combat efectiveness/ease of production ratio. On that grounds alone, it could probably win every contest until 1942.
The He100D-1 is arguably better than the Bf109F-1 it would compete with. Wether a He100D-4 would be better than the Bf109F-4 is debatable.
But my interest lies in the fact that the RLM actively encouraged Heinkel to export the He112, and given Germany apetite for foreign currency a DB601 powered He112 could have been promoted in 1938 with the prospect of delivery in 1939. But how good would it be? Would, for example the Swiss airforce, that bought the Bf109E, have been better off with the Heinkel?
 
On another note, what would be the most logical name for the DB601 powered version? He112B-3 or He112C? (assuming the OTL B-1 and B-2 versions still exist.)
The second option would probably be better for export purposes, denoting a "new" version.
 
If the book i'm reading is correct the He 112 had a better range than the Bf 109. If the He 112 was chosen over the Bf 109 it may have an impact on the Battle of Britain, right?
 
If the book i'm reading is correct the He 112 had a better range than the Bf 109. If the He 112 was chosen over the Bf 109 it may have an impact on the Battle of Britain, right?


The He112B-2 range advantage came from using a less powerful, but more fuel eficient engine. A DB601 powered version would burn more fuel and the greater performance would probably also reduce range.
The He100D-1 is another matter, but it's a later design, that should be compared with the Bf109F-1.
 
As AdA notes, the He 112 was a non-starter as an effective competitor to the Bf 109 both times it was proposed. The He 112A was heavy, over complicated, over built, and was far less manuverable. The only thing it did better than the Bf 109 prototype was taxi - hardly the reason to choose it as the Luftwaffe's main fighter.

The He 112B did a very good job of addressing the He 112A's shortcomings - basically by being an entirely different design. By the time it was ready, the Bf 109 was already entering service and the He 112 was not really any better than the 109. Had the He 112B been the plane competing with the Bf 109 in the original fighter competition, or if the RLM was interested in producing more than one DB powered single engine fighter, the He 112 might have shown the same development potential of the 109...something we'll never know.

And the He 100 is an entirely different situation - not really related to the Bf 109 vs He 112 argument (other than the fact that it represented Heinkel's basic unwillingness to accept the fact that Messerschmitt won the fighter competition hands down). But the RLM probably made the right decision regarding the He 100 as well.

I just don't get all this second-guessing the Bf 109, which was one of the greatest fighters of all time. Not too many airforces can say that the fighter they started WW2 in 1939 with was still one of the best fighters extant in 1945. Only one other could, and that is the RAF. And it should be no suprise that conceptually the Spitfire and Bf 109 were like peas in a pod.
 
As AdA notes, the He 112 was a non-starter as an effective competitor to the Bf 109 both times it was proposed. The He 112A was heavy, over complicated, over built, and was far less manuverable. The only thing it did better than the Bf 109 prototype was taxi - hardly the reason to choose it as the Luftwaffe's main fighter.

The He 112B did a very good job of addressing the He 112A's shortcomings - basically by being an entirely different design. By the time it was ready, the Bf 109 was already entering service and the He 112 was not really any better than the 109. Had the He 112B been the plane competing with the Bf 109 in the original fighter competition, or if the RLM was interested in producing more than one DB powered single engine fighter, the He 112 might have shown the same development potential of the 109...something we'll never know.

And the He 100 is an entirely different situation - not really related to the Bf 109 vs He 112 argument (other than the fact that it represented Heinkel's basic unwillingness to accept the fact that Messerschmitt won the fighter competition hands down). But the RLM probably made the right decision regarding the He 100 as well.

I just don't get all this second-guessing the Bf 109, which was one of the greatest fighters of all time. Not too many airforces can say that the fighter they started WW2 in 1939 with was still one of the best fighters extant in 1945. Only one other could, and that is the RAF. And it should be no suprise that conceptually the Spitfire and Bf 109 were like peas in a pod.

I am in agreement with all this. Furthermore, superior range claims seem spurious, unless someone can find evidence of a version of the 112B that carried more than 320 liters, 70 gal., in a single tank under the seat, with filler to the left of the cockpit. Udet liked the 109, Goering liked Willi so much he put a helper in the company, and Milch despised Willi's guts.
 
This was not meant to be a LW thread. The Bf109 was a good choice for the LW, and as I've said before, being designed for mass production pretty much would guarantee a fair win in any contest. The LW had more modern fighters in 1940 than anyone else essentially because the Bf109 was easier to mass produce than the competition. The first fighter to challenge it on the critical combat effectiveness /ease of production ratio was probably the Yak 9 in late 42.
But the Heinkel was also competing in the export market, and for a prospective buyer benchmarking it against the Bf109E would give a good indication of its worth.
Messerschmitt would probably claim a greater profit margin, which would give a buyer looking for a hundred or so modern fighters a choice based on the aircraft merits alone. It's in this context that, information on the He112 V10 capabilities being scarce, I asked for opinions and/or information on just how good that version of the Heinkel was, with the same engine and weapons as the Bf109E-4 making that version of the Emil a suitable and well know benchmark.
 
Just in case someone is wondering what's the point, I'm evaluating possible options for an alternative Portuguese Air Force order made in 38 for delivery in 1939.
 

Driftless

Donor
What was the comparative cost for the HE.112 vs other export fighters of comparable performance? I realize that's tossing in some real subjective disclaimers.... but the cost would be a big factor. And cost would include up-front purchase, and ongoing maintenance costs.

Some of the other timelines (i.e. A Blunted Sickle, etc) point out the still hefty financial difficulties many countries faced coming out of the Great Depression. With limited resources, country's balanced want vs need and sometimes they chose wisely, and sometimes, not so much...
 
What was the comparative cost for the HE.112 vs other export fighters of comparable performance? I realize that's tossing in some real subjective disclaimers.... but the cost would be a big factor. And cost would include up-front purchase, and ongoing maintenance costs.

Some of the other timelines (i.e. A Blunted Sickle, etc) point out the still hefty financial difficulties many countries faced coming out of the Great Depression. With limited resources, country's balanced want vs need and sometimes they chose wisely, and sometimes, not so much...

As explained on the previous post, I'm assuming the He112 is being offered at the same price as the Bf109. In terms of production cost, considering the reduced man hours to build it, the real cost of the Bf109 should have been a bargain, but given its qualities and LW credibility they would probably just increase the profit margin on export sales. If anyone has a ready source on the cost of 1938/9 fighters they can post it would be most welcome.
 
OTL We bought Gloster Gladiators MkII in 1938 to suplemt our Hawker Furies. I guess Salazar reputation for being conservative and tightfisted extended to aircraft purchases...
 
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I think the availability of production DB-601 engines would be very time period specific, since it was, at one time, Germany's most capable engine, and specified for installation on its most critical machines, fighters vital to establishing air superiority crucial to all other operations.
 
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