Harald Hardrada wins the crown: Collaborative timeline
- Thread starter The_Last_Plantagenet
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So Harald was able to attack England because he'd made an agreement with Sweyn of Denmark where each recognised the other as king of their bit of scandinavia and gave up their claims to the other.
Now in OTL, as a reaction to Harald's death, Sweyn led the last norse invasion of England, by taking his fleet to Hull during the northern rebellion until he was bought off with danegeld by William I.
So you have a very ambitious ruler here, who has spent years fighting and losing against Harald and who has just seen his rival gain vast new land. He's going to be a potential problem.
Now in OTL, as a reaction to Harald's death, Sweyn led the last norse invasion of England, by taking his fleet to Hull during the northern rebellion until he was bought off with danegeld by William I.
So you have a very ambitious ruler here, who has spent years fighting and losing against Harald and who has just seen his rival gain vast new land. He's going to be a potential problem.
Haralds armies Have just had a massive increase, would this be enough to hold the danes of?
Does anybody else have anything to add? Im doing loads of research at the moment
A couple of people have mentioned an invasion of Ireland, on the basis that Harold's family fled there in OTL.
I think it's worth noting that they fled to the traditionally norse parts of Ireland not the celtic bits. I believe Ireland had only driven out their norse rulers 2 years before 1066, so that relationship may well be very different if it's norwegians and not normans ruling England.
The norse Vikings in Dublin and Galway normally had family relationships and alliances with the norse in norse scotland who were at least technically vassals of Norway. A former norse king of Dublin wasd living in galway at this point.
I think it's worth noting that they fled to the traditionally norse parts of Ireland not the celtic bits. I believe Ireland had only driven out their norse rulers 2 years before 1066, so that relationship may well be very different if it's norwegians and not normans ruling England.
The norse Vikings in Dublin and Galway normally had family relationships and alliances with the norse in norse scotland who were at least technically vassals of Norway. A former norse king of Dublin wasd living in galway at this point.
Ah, could this mean that England and scotland could be unified up to 500 years earlier?
also would Norse Ireland be a vassal?
also would Norse Ireland be a vassal?
My inspiration is Magnus Barelegs here. In 1098, so thirty years after your POD, he was king of Norway and he came to the british isles so secure his rule over the norse there.
In that campaign, he took control of the isle of man, the welsh island of Anglesey, the Scottish isles of the Hebrides, Orkneys and Shetlands, parts of mainland Scotland around the very north and very west and Dublin and the surrounding area in Ireland.
And he did that without having to fight any of the major british kings. That area was most occupied by norse speakers and was not under the influence of either Scotland or England.
Now 30 years earlier I think things are slightly worse for the Norse, they've been kicked out of Ireland in 1064 by the man who in otl teamed up with Harolds sons to invade England. And the norse irish sea kingdom has been reduced to just Galloway.
But if, once Harrada has pacified England he wants to lead a second british campaign, then the irish sea and that preexisiting norse empire seems a more likely target than wales.
Again the main point in replacing William with Harald is to see how the latter behaves differently. In OTL William campaigned in Wales, I can see Harald going for Dublin instead.
Diarmait mac Máel and his son. Mac Mael was high king of Ireland and his son was king of the foreigners (the norse). The real norse king had been driven out 2 years earlier but was still alive.
In OTl Diarmait takes in harolds son and lends his fleet for a failed invasion of England by the Saxons.
Invading Dublin in response and reinstalling a norse vassal seems something Harald would do to me.
I double checked my sources and Echmarcach mac Ragnaill, the previous norse king of dublin, seems to have died in rome in 1065, it's his cousin or brother Gofraid meic Ragnaill who I was thinking of. He retook Dublin in 1072 in otl. So Harald might want to go with him, as someone who used to live in Dublin and has family ties to the old rulers.
But there's a few other choices. The old Earl of Orkney had been king of the Hebrides previously and his two sons, Paul and Erlend Thorfinnsson, both fought at Stamford Bridge. So rewarding them for their service by giving them their fathers old kingdom plus a little more makes sense.
There's also Harald's son Magnus who would be King of Norway after Harald's death. He'd visited Dublin previously to try and extend Norwegian control over there in 1058 but was bought home to fight against Denmark instead. Putting him in charge of Dublin and the Isles would be an obvious way to keep the norse irish in the family.
And for irony's sake, Godred Crovan, who also fought at Stamford Bridge, ended up ruling Dublin and the isles in OTl in the 1080s so bringing that forward 20 years might also work.
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Im sensing a disturbing amount of similarity between Harald and Williams reigns 
Im sensing a disturbing amount of similarity between Harald and Williams reigns
Well he's going to have the exact same problems as William had.
As in saxon rebels, and Wales, Scotland, Denmark, Ireland etc, sheltering and helping said saxon rebels.
The main advantage Harald has, imo, is that Norway is more stable than Normandy. William had problems in his old kingdom as well as his new.
Harald on the other hand, might not. His son Olaf led Norway in a period of general peace so he sounds like an excellent regent to keep things calm in norway while Harald is warring in Britain.
So once hes got england,wales and Ireland under his thumb would he make them all vassals or integrate them into his kingdom?
England he'll rule as an additional throne in the way previous norse kings like Canute and Sweyn did. If he succeeds in establishing firm control than it'll become standard that the king of Norway is also the king of England, which given the relative richness of the two kingdoms will inevitably lead to England being the heart of his realm.
Ireland he can't conquer simply because it's not a state. What I'm talking about is control of the norse port cities, Dublin, Galway etc. My guess is that you'll see an earl/king of Dublin and an earl/king of the isles to go with the earl of Orkney as vassals that fit into the Norwegian realm.
Wales, it depends on what form his power there takes. Directly conquering Wales is really expensive because you need to build a lot of castles and the landscape is awful for fighting in. He might just be happy with strong influence and tribute.
Would he ever unify the crowns of Norway and enlgand? And say he had the three earls (orkney,dubkin,the isles), scotland, and england and was taking tribute from wales would he be seen as the prominent force in europe?
The most powerful british and norse rulers were generally seen as second only to the holy roman emperor in terms of power.
Canute was, Æthelstan was. You'd imagine Harald would be the same. Second only to the Emperor.