Grant at Gettysburg

[usertron2020]

Broken Record

11AM to 12PM The Second Day

Longstreet:
So the order has been given. Surprise attack coming around Seminary Ridge to close in on the enemy on their weakest point, their lowest elevation. An en echelon attack, after all. Even with the enemy reinforced, holding the high ground at every point except my line of assault. There's no chance of this being anything but a frontal assault, no matter what fancy terms you give it. At least for my boys...

Across the Emmitsburg Road, using the woods, wheat fields, and peach orchards to confuse the enemy as to our movements. But with Sykes up on those rocks, I can't just pretend he's not there! Ol' Sam Hood's gonna be furious, but he'll just have to do what he can to keep 'em busy while supporting McLaws at the same time. GOD ALMIGHTY! What does the old man think is gonna happen? Maybe he just expects Sickles to run?


MEANWHILE

Meade:

"Major Tremain, after my last order on this matter, I thought that would be the end of it. Apparently, General Sickles still considers my DIRECT ORDERS to be hints and suggestions! Very well, since Sickles seems to think that I don't know what's going on in front of III Corps, let me put your, AND his, minds at ease. I have had my OWN scouts covering the terrain and they largely confirm what you, Trobriand, and Sickles have been saying all along.


However, while the positions you describe DO represent problems with parts of III Corps positions, if he advances as proposed, HIS right flank will be completely in the air and vulnerable to being rolled up like a carpet! That leaves a hole a Corps wide that the enemy can exploit rapidly! We need to hold this ground until all our forces are up! I'm sending some officers to make sure he understands that. Your job will be to convey my orders, AGAIN, and escort these officers with you. Clear?" Tremain said "Yes Sir!"
and departed with the officers.

 

[usertron2020]

Lunch

Noontime Interlude

Grant watched as the officers left. This has to be very hard on Meade. But so far I can't really fault him for anything but a bad temper. Yet considering the insubordination of some of these officers it made him wonder if they had any McClernand's or Rosecrans' in their family tree.

 

[usertron2020]

Suspicious of ability

12 PM to 1 PM
The Second Day

III Corps

"Gentlemen, we are then in agreement?" Sickles asked. General Birney slowly nodded. General Humphreys did not. Humphreys thought: You know your own orders, just let Sickles hang himself, if that's what he wants. "General Humphreys? I did not invite you to this meeting, so I assume you must have a strong opinion of your own to be here?" "Sir, I appreciate the poor position General Birney's division is in, as are some of my own troops. But unless General Hancock's II Corps extends its left flank forward my own right flank will be in the air, at least in part" replied Humphreys.


"Well, don't worry, Humphreys. We will have the advantage of position, our cannon, and the interior lines. Not to mention Devin's cavalry support, the Artillery Reserve, plus II and V Corps to support. Once Sedgwick arrives with VI Corps, our position will be invincible." Sickles was beaming.

Humphreys looked over to his aide and gestured. A letter was passed over. "General Sickles, I must tell you now that the vulnerability of III Corps in its current position is something which General Meade has taken into consideration. His decision to keep us here he has affirmed, and reaffirmed. Considering your own strong opinions on this matter, Generals Meade and Grant felt this necessary..." Humphreys handed Sickles the letter.

Sickles, whose confusion and anger had been growing in equal measure to Humphreys' words, read the letter, and exploded in outraged indignation: "I KNEW IT! THIS IS GRANT, ISN'T IT? Isn't it? Well, General? Answer me!" "Sir, I can only state that the letter was delivered to me by Colonel Rawlins, Lieutenant General Grant's Chief-of-Staff. He made clear his knowledge of the letters' contents and its importance. He also made it clear such things are not done lightly on the battlefield, sir." Humphreys answered, his own temper rising.


"Grant and Meade think they can deny ME the right of any commander to make changes as I see fit on my own front? To deny me the right of 'Command decisions'?" Sickles yelled.

He got right into Humphreys' face and
screamed:"It's West Point, isn't? I'm the only corps commander left not from that cesspool-neverending-progenitor of military nincompoops! And now they want to get rid of me, don't they? Birney's not a West Pointer, but YOU ARE!
You, Meade, and Grant, conspiring to take my boys from me, well forget it!
I see what you're doing! If I advance, the Rebs will advance, be cut to pieces, and I'll win the battle! But only if Meade advances, so he and Grant'll take the credit, and I'll be 'rewarded' with a transfer to the Transmississippi! If I stay here, me and my boys get pushed back from an untenable position, just like Howard's XI Corps yesterday, and I get cashiered! I-" Sickles was cutoff in mid-tirade as Humphreys himself exploded in a torrent of invective so severe as to make a nun's ears bleed. Even Sickles, an old Tammany Hall veteran, was taken aback.


Finally, in a calmer, if strained voice, Humphreys said:"General Sickles, you still command III Corps, how long you continue to do so is entirely up to you, SIR! Good day" And with that, Humphreys rode off. Sickles looked down at the detested letter again, and snorted. Well fine, he thought. At least this letter is my insurance policy. God help us. God help me and my boys. And God let me live long enough to use this letter against those fools who think they know better from half a battlefield away!

Sickles turned to look at the enemy...

 

[Bulls Run]

Well done!

Just wanted to say that I've really enjoyed what I've read so far. Everything seems right on the money. Can't wait to see what happens next.

 

[usertron2020]

Where is the enemy?

12 PM to 1 PM The Second Day


Longstreet continued to look up at the rise of the rocky hill. He brooded about Lee's orders, and how best to accomplish them. Stuart's absence, and when or if he might return. And most importantly, when his "scout" Harrison would return with any information about the Yankee far left.

He had reports the Yankee V, III, and II Corps were holding their positions so far. That was good at least. The Yankee III Corps was just about the only soft spot the enemy had just now. But without Pickett and Stuart, how was he expected to punch through and exploit the enemy's lines? He looked at the rocky hill again, as well as the rocks in front. "God!" He thought. What a spot for natural Indian fighting. If there's a battle there, whoever emerges from it will have no military formation of any kind, one side or the other. They'll just be a rabble. But if we leave 'em alone, Sykes' V Corps could just enfilade Hood's whole division. Not to mention Sedgwick's VI Corps. Where was he?

Longstreet turned to his Chief of Staff, and said: "Major Sorrel, I have a job for you...".

 

[usertron2020]

Is there anybody out there?

Just wanted to say that I've really enjoyed what I've read so far. Everything seems right on the money. Can't wait to see what happens next.

Thank you. Up to now I've felt like a DJ on a rock station rated 20th in ratings locally and speaking over the airwaves at 3AM on a Sunday.

 

[River of Death]

The Curse of Detailed TLs

Please do not feel like that. This is an amazing TL and I am following it avidly. You are simply suffering from the "curse" of the well-researched very-detailed TL, which I am quite familiar with.

In my TL it took 17 posts, individually longer than yours, to advance from August 20th to September 13th (?) 1863 in Tennessee/Georgia - and this with no major battles at all. And I got approximately 1 response every 3 posts or so.

Here, all that this means is that you have done a very good deed. You have taken the time to research OTL, the ins and outs of the geography down to very local levels, the personalities of many more characters than most TLs ever touch on - and then turned it into a TTL so detailed as to be the same density (if of a much friendlier style) of a classic textbook on the battle. This is very hard and time-consuming, and the end result is ever-so-much better for it.

This also means that the average post-er can neither dispute nor agree with most of the facts of the TL, except perhaps to say "I like your literary style", or "The inter-personal relations make this a great TL" - nice to hear, but nothing of help - and so most of the time the reply remains un-posted.

Which is a blessing, believe me, because otherwise the thread would be swamped with the most stupid of debates, spiraling off into meaninglessness, or at the very least unrelatedness - aided and abetted by people such as (for example) 67th.

In this context, silence means "everyone likes your TL and can't find anything to improve" - don't ever think otherwise. And for confirmation, check out from the threads page the number of times your thread has been viewed. It is a big number.

 

[usertron2020]

Time to face the elephant again

1PM to 2PM The Second Day


Longstreet heard his aide-de-camp Captain Goree cry out: "Sir, it's Major Sorrel!". Major Sorrel rode up quickly, and sure enough, there was Harrison, right beside him. Sorrel spoke quickly: "Sir, I believe you will want to hear what Harrison has to say." Longstreet nodded. Harrison started: "Sir, even a man with my talents couldn' get close enough to the Yankees to be able to get everythin' I know you needed to know, but I learned plenty, that I can tell you. The Yankees can see EVERYTHIN' comin' around this ridge (Seminary) we're standin' on. No doubt." Harrison said in a rapid-fire staccato voice.


"You try to move troops around this ridge, the Yankees will shift around quicker than a snake in the grass while our boys are still just gettin' in formation. The big round hill still looks empty, but judgin' by the dust, there's somethin' movin' behind that hill." Harrison finished in a more serious tone, "Could be anything,sir. I'm sorry, but there were just too many pickets out for me to get any closer."

"You and Harrison must have run into each other, I suppose?" Longstreet asked. "Yes Sir. Based on Harrison's report, I deemed it imperative I make certain I escort Harrison to you without delay." "Very good, Major Sorrel."


"Gentleman, I need to make clear to my divisional commanders they will have to march around the ridge and directly over the wheat fields and orchards to strike the enemy. I'll go to Hood first and then McLaws. This is after all merely a confirmation of their standing orders but they'll want it considering what they are up against." Longstreet grimaced. As long as he gets Law's Brigade, McLaws should be satisfied. But Hood?

 

[Blair152]

Have you read any of Newt Gingrich's AH novels of the Civil War? In the
first book, Gettysburg, he gives a very detailed plan as to how the Confederacy could have won Gettysburg.

 

[usertron2020]

Never mind it was on Fox

Have you read any of Newt Gingrich's AH novels of the Civil War? In the
first book, Gettysburg, he gives a very detailed plan as to how the Confederacy could have won Gettysburg.

I have all three historical novels he wrote on that campaign. He stated in a Fox interview how AH stories in this genre had an unfortunate problem. The story follows a victory where a defeat had occured IOTL with a belief that somehow every single battle from then on would be just an endless series of Southern victories (sound familiar people?). Newt said: "In fact, as Shelby Foote, the great southern Civil War historian said repeatedly, it would only result in an ever greater mobilization of the Northern war effort.

It would have been a moderate Southern victory, but as I showed in my books, such victories can lead to a whetting of appetites. Each new battle led to victories ever more costly, until Lee was left with insufficient forces even to escape, never mind hold his ground, never mind maintain the initiative". Note-I last saw that interview YEARS ago, so I am paraphrasing Gingrich's words.

 

[River of Death]

Longstreet grimaced. As long as he gets Law's Brigade, McLaws should be satisfied. But Hood?

Not-quite-so-little-as-a-Nitpick:

Law's brigade belonged to Hood's division, not McLaws'.

As long as I'm praising you for level of detail and accuracy, I should make you earn such praise.

 

[usertron2020]

I can only HOPE this is my biggest screwup.

Not-quite-so-little-as-a-Nitpick:

Law's brigade belonged to Hood's division, not McLaws'.

As long as I'm praising you for level of detail and accuracy, I should make you earn such praise.

Mea Culpa. Thankfully, with a POD at Shiloh and the fact that Longstreet's Corps was down in Suffolk, Virginia during Chancellorsville, that allows sufficient butterflies to shift the orders of battle between brigades and divisions of Longstreet's Corps.

 

[usertron2020]

How much can you ask of one man, or division?

2PM to 3PM The Second Day

Messages flying back and forth, Longstreet seeing one proposal after another from Hood. Attack the Big round hill, go around the round hills and take the enemy from the rear. Oh Sam, he thought. We try to do that in full view of the enemy and First Corps will be isolated and destroyed, no doubt of that at all. If the hills were still empty, maybe. But now?

Now he could see Sam Hood himself riding up, ferocious as ever. Hood was repeating the same ideas (demands, really) his aides had been bringing to Longstreet for the last two hours, but Hood finally was convinced that only he could change Longstreet's mind. Sam, Longstreet thought, mine is not the mind that needs to be changed.

"General, look up at those rocks. They're all over the field. The enemy has covered that ground and the rocky hill behind it. If I attack that rock field, I'll take fifty percent casualties, with the enemy still entrenched above us on the hill! We have to use maneuver sir, and roll 'em up clean to Gettysburg! Anything else is an act of madness, sir! That's not even counting my mission to screen McLaw's right flank. But General, who is screening my right flank?" Hood stopped for a moment, as if to give Longstreet a moment to interject.

"Sam, General Lee has given his orders, you were there, you know those orders. En Echelon. That's the plan of attack. He will not allow any flanking movements or use of the big round hill. That's it." Longstreet continued:"For the attack to work, you have to take that hill and break Sykes, then McLaws can break Sickles, Third Corps can break Hancock, and so on. But I'll tell you what, I'll transfer Law's Brigade back to your command. I know you weren't happy about losing him after we left Suffolk, and McLaws will be happy to get Kershaw's Brigade back. From their current positions, it won't involve much more marching anyway."

Apparently, Hood wasn't impressed. Longstreet expected Hood would have been awaiting on another twenty thousand troops before trying to carry out his orders. "General, I will do this, or die trying." Hood said this in a cold, careful manner, and rode off to his destiny...
James Peter Longstreet looked on as Hood faded into the distance, and all he could think was: Goodbye, Sam.

 

[mattep74]

2PM to 3PM The Second Day

Messages flying back and forth, Longstreet seeing one proposal after another from Hood. Attack the Big round hill, go around the round hills and take the enemy from the year. Oh Sam, he thought. We try to do that in full view of the enemy and First Corps will be isolated and destroyed, no doubt of that at all. If the hills were still empty, maybe. But now?

Now he could see Sam Hood himself riding up, ferocious as ever. Hood was repeating the same ideas (demands, really) his aides had been bringing to Longstreet for the last two hours, but Hood finally was convinced that only he could change Longstreet's mind. Sam, Longstreet thought, mine is not the mind that needs to be changed.

"General, look up at those rocks. They're all over the field. The enemy has covered that ground and the rocky hill behind it. If I attack that rock field, I'll take fifty percent casualties, with the enemy still entrenched above us on the hill! We have to use maneuver sir, and roll 'em up clean to Gettysburg! Anything else is an act of madness, sir! That's not even counting my mission to screen McLaw's right flank. But General, who is screening my right flank?" Hood stopped for a moment, as if to give Longstreet a moment to interject.

"Sam, General Lee has given his orders, you were there, you know those orders. En Echelon. That's the plan of attack. He will not allow any flanking movements or use of the big round hill. That's it." Longstreet continued:"For the attack to work, you have to take that hill and break Sykes, then McLaws can break Sickles, Third Corps can break Hancock, and so on. But I'll tell you what, I'll transfer Law's Brigade back to your command. I know you weren't happy about losing him after we left Suffolk, and McLaws will be happy to get Kershaw's Brigade back. From their current positions, it won't involve much more marching anyway."

Apparently, Hood wasn't impressed. Longstreet expected Hood would have been awaiting on another twenty thousand troops before trying to carry out his orders. "General, I will do this, or die trying." Hood said this in a cold, careful manner, and rode off to his destiny...
James Peter Longstreet looked on as Hood faded into the distance, and all he could think was: Goodbye, Sam.

Not the original talk? with Hood saying "General, i do this under protest"

Longstreet answering: "Duely notet, now Sam, will you take those rocks?"

"They dont even need guns, they can throw rocks at us" Hood
(yes, i have seen Gettysburg several times)

 

[67th Tigers]

Not the original talk? with Hood saying "General, i do this under protest"

Longstreet answering: "Duely notet, now Sam, will you take those rocks?"

"They dont even need guns, they can throw rocks at us" Hood
(yes, i have seen Gettysburg several times)

I doubt that, as "the rocks" were to be bypassed in Longstreet's attack of the 2nd (straight up the Emmittsburg Road, seizing Peach Orchard Ridge as a point du appui and then assaulting Cemetery Ridge, only the left hand division of the assault force, Andersons, hit the target).

The conversation above was written by Shara in 1973 for his novel "The Killer Angels" and appears nowhere previously.

 

[Blair152]

I have all three historical novels he wrote on that campaign. He stated in a Fox interview how AH stories in this genre had an unfortunate problem. The story follows a victory where a defeat had occured IOTL with a belief that somehow every single battle from then on would be just an endless series of Southern victories (sound familiar people?). Newt said: "In fact, as Shelby Foote, the great southern Civil War historian said repeatedly, it would only result in an ever greater mobilization of the Northern war effort.

It would have been a moderate Southern victory, but as I showed in my books, such victories can lead to a whetting of appetites. Each new battle led to victories ever more costly, until Lee was left with insufficient forces even to escape, never mind hold his ground, never mind maintain the initiative". Note-I last saw that interview YEARS ago, so I am paraphrasing Gingrich's words.

Harry Turtledove had an ASB solution. If you've read his Guns of the South
series, he has time travelers from the future give the ANVA AK-47s. As for
the Army of the Potomac, Lincoln had to go really deep into the ranks to find a general who'd command it. I was watching a program about the Battle of Gettysburg last night on the Military Channel. A colonel entered
Meade's tent and told him he had bad news. Meade's reaction was "Army
politics!" then he asked the colonel what the bad news was and the colonel
replied that he'd been given command of the Army of the Potomac. As for
Little Round Top, it barely held. The reason why? Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain ordered a bayonet charge. Pickett's Charge, though it ultimately failed, nearly succeeded. The Union troops started running and Lieutenant Frank Haskell threatened to run them through if they didn't return to their positions. Shelby Foote wrote the definitive history of the
Civil War.

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

Not the original talk? with Hood saying "General, i do this under protest"

Longstreet answering: "Duely notet, now Sam, will you take those rocks?"

"They dont even need guns, they can throw rocks at us" Hood
(yes, i have seen Gettysburg several times)

DITTO!!!

I was kinda expecting the same thing.

 

[usertron2020]

ITTL, not IOTL

Not the original talk? with Hood saying "General, i do this under protest"

Longstreet answering: "Duely notet, now Sam, will you take those rocks?"

"They dont even need guns, they can throw rocks at us" Hood
(yes, i have seen Gettysburg several times)

mattep74


I figured if I stole Shaara's dialogue outright, I would find myself curbstomped from every point of the compass, and justly so. How you judge Hood's confrontation with Longstreet can be determined by whose advocate you are. Lee, Longstreet, or even Hood. Champions of Lee will insist Longstreet never had any real problem with Lee's plan and just simply bungled it because he couldn't adjust to Sickles' movements. Longstreet's fans will say that his hands were so tied that in the end he could only do exactly what he was told and nothing else. Differing accounts of Hood's complaints to Longstreet have ranged from mild questions to the furious pleading dramatically played out in the film "Gettysburg".


Just remember mattep74, this is not IOTL. V Corps was not supposed to be in such strength on Hood's flank. Military science and military sense dictated Hood could not launch a broad daylight assault on Cemetery Ridge with out a "soakoff" to keep Sykes busy in that sector, else Hood's flank caves in. The stronger the force on Hood's right, the larger the force needed to keep Sykes (V Corps) busy. But if this seems too demanding of Hood, it's because it is. As Shelby Foote always said, Gettysburg was the price the South had to pay for having Robert E. Lee as its commander. Following Chancellorsville, Lee had come to believe HE was invincible, and his boys were invincible. His orders throughout the battle essentially reflected this, and since he was the "Marble Man", many others had to serve as scapegoats.


Hence, Gettysburg.

 

[usertron2020]

And I suppose Sykes will just do nothing, 'cause we want him to?

I doubt that, as "the rocks" were to be bypassed in Longstreet's attack of the 2nd (straight up the Emmittsburg Road, seizing Peach Orchard Ridge as a point du appui and then assaulting Cemetery Ridge, only the left hand division of the assault force, Andersons, hit the target).

The conversation above was written by Shara in 1973 for his novel "The Killer Angels" and appears nowhere previously.

67th Tigers

The key problem at this time ITTL is one of timimg and co-ordination. Nobody expected the original starting point for the assault by First Corps to be so fully under the enemy's line of sight. It was almost as if Chancellorsville was conducted in a flattened forest that had just been cleared, leaving nothing but stumps, for the most part. Can you imagine what would have happened to Jackson if he had tried his wide manuever while under enemy view the whole time?

ITTL, it's Lee's orders vs. Hood's limitations. Technically, as First Corps commander, Longstreet should have had some leeway. But Lee very specifically issued orders personally to Longstreet's divisional commanders.

Whether this was a representation of a loss of confidence in Longstreet, or that Lee judged the attack so important he felt he had to issue the commands himself, we will never know. But from the moment Lee issued his orders Longstreet displayed a marked lack of imagination and flexibility in his own command. So he left his prerogatives unused, if he had any. McLaw's would go up against III Corps (Sickles) with a good tactical advantage. But Hood faces a situation that is one part easy two parts nightmarish. I feel that I should remind you this is an ATL. Units are arriving at an ATL schedule. Do not think otherwise.

 

[usertron2020]

Cosmic Destiny

Harry Turtledove had an ASB solution. If you've read his Guns of the South
series, he has time travelers from the future give the ANVA AK-47s. As for
the Army of the Potomac, Lincoln had to go really deep into the ranks to find a general who'd command it. I was watching a program about the Battle of Gettysburg last night on the Military Channel. A colonel entered
Meade's tent and told him he had bad news. Meade's reaction was "Army
politics!" then he asked the colonel what the bad news was and the colonel
replied that he'd been given command of the Army of the Potomac. As for
Little Round Top, it barely held. The reason why? Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain ordered a bayonet charge. Pickett's Charge, though it ultimately failed, nearly succeeded. The Union troops started running and Lieutenant Frank Haskell threatened to run them through if they didn't return to their positions. Shelby Foote wrote the definitive history of the
Civil War.

Newt Gingrich's books were actually very good, in every way but one. To get the "Great Southern Victory" needed for the first two books, necessary to setup the finale, the same tired refrain was needed. "HE'S DONE WHAT?". An insubordinate officer goes his own way, leading the AotP to crushing defeat, while the AoNV officers follow their orders to perfection, of course. The one exception? Pickett!