Grant at Gettysburg

[usertron2020]

Nitpicker

Okay, I have a question.

If the POD for this timeline is a major Union victory at Shiloh, how would that effect the war entirely if Shiloh turns from a close run battle, into a hypothetical route.

This would basically be moving up events in the western theaters by well over a year.

That and it would be one major morale blow to the Confederates.

There is no "e" in rout. Different word.

The morale blow is to the Confederate nation as a whole, and to the forever suffering Western Confederate Armies. But Grant's going East ITTL IMHO will do some good for western/Southern morale.

In the AoNV? ITTL they are more or less unaffected, leaving their sense of invincibility undisturbed. Not good. For THEM.

 

[usertron2020]

Here we go...

If we also take into account that Grant might post a division or two on the roundtops i can see him proping Lees line to find the flank. IMHO the OTL battle was won by the feds for staying on the defensive 99% of the battle.

IF a battle with Grant in command goes as OTL the first two days and there is a Picket charge, i can see Grant ordering a counterattack as Longstreets battered brigades fall back

Meade will be in actual command of the AotP but everyone knows who the boss is. Grant's role is to fire up the cautious, and put down insubordination. He had no time for political generals (always the MOST insubordinate) and the politicization of the AotP was already legendary out west. Not that Grant didn't have his own experiences with politicians in uniform. McClernand comes to mind. But he was always able to keep them on a strong leash. The higher a commander, the stronger the leash. This was not a blind prejudice. He once said of Major General John A. Logan: "He was the only political general I ever met who was worth a damn...".

The greatest problem, besides Lee, for AotP's commanders was the great inability to relieve incompetent or insubordinate (but I repeat myself) officers due to political connections. For the most part, this wasn't a problem out West.

Grant's most immediate contributions to the war effort in the East were threefold. These contributions cannot be understated.

FIRST, no more hot messages flying in from Washington demanding "Charge! Attack! Drive them out! On to Richmond!". Oh they'd be sent. But Grant will get them, and Meade will never see them. The AotP commander, for the first time in the history of that army, will have an ability to freely determine his own course of action with NO political interference. Neither above nor below.

SECOND, the days of the political generals are over. Their careers hang by a thread, even though they don't know it.

THIRD, there is a General-in-Chief who has the absolute faith of the Commander-In-Chief (even if ONLY he and Congressman Elihu Washburne). No more second-guessing. Meade has his back covered twice over. IOTL, his reaction was aggressiveness in the Wilderness that became nearly ferocious in nature at Spotsylvania Courthouse.

Grant's contributions ITTL can be expected to be more effective, even marked as time goes by. But this is less a matter of his own aggressive style than Lee's style. Expect more on this later...

PS Sorry, but I seem to be spending all my time laying out the groundwork, as opposed to just getting started. But then, the guides for writing a TL direct you to do precisely that. Oh well...

 

[usertron2020]

First Light

4AM The Second Day

Sitting on a stool Rawlins had thoughtfully provided for him, Grant rested for a moment as he took in the dawn. The night had gone well, he ruminated, after such a bloody day. According to reports pouring in from survivors of I and XI Corps, and a personal talk he had with John Buford, everything had been in control until XI Corps' arrival. Their appearance coincided with Early's attack on its rear and flank. All downhill from there.

Drawing on his first cigar of the morning, he just shook his head. No point in collecting scalps at a time like this. Besides, Doubleday and Howard didn't have much left to command anyway. At least, to the plus side, Buford had shown himself to be someone to watch.

As the light got stronger, he smiled. All those flags, pennants, and banners. He felt like he was in Caesar's encampment. Hopefully, all that pageantry will add up to something before the end of the day, he thought.

His face grew darker as he considered the army's options. He never worried about what the enemy was going to do to him. But in Meade's headquarters there seemed to be no thoughts for anything else, no plans to throw off the enemy and regain the initiative. Just worrying about Bobby Lee. Dig in and wait. That seemed to be it.

He looked over at his personal servant, a former runaway. He always seemed to know when to keep the right distance. As Grant marshaled his thoughts, he had to admit: "As long as Lee's forces are coming in faster, Meade's right about holding back. I need VI Corps as the striking arm to pound Lee when the opportunity arises. V Corps will have to fill that role today."

 

[usertron2020]

Closing forces

5AM The Second Day

As the forces continued to close into Gettysburg, Grant could see the Confederates filling in the ridges opposing the Union lines. It was clear Lee was worried about his own right, and was bringing in all his fresh troops on that flank. Grant was comfortable with the army's situation on the right and in the center, but he slowed as he thought of the left flank.

He heard Meade's voice behind him: "Excuse me, General Grant, I thought I should report in. Not even Lee's whole army could take the large hill to the northeast with XII Corps dug in as they are. You can trust General Slocum. We haven't always gotten along, but he's still a good officer." Grant said: "So I have been told. I see you put Hancock in charge of the center. Mind telling me about what you are planning to do about the army's extreme left?"

Meade scowled, and Grant smiled on the inside as he could almost see the smoke coming out of Meade's ears. "We have time, sir. I have people in the Signal Corps and cavalry troopers available to carry and communicate intelligence about the nature of the ground south of us." Grant said, in a soft but determined voice: "Just make sure we have the forces available and in place to take advantage of our having the high ground. That rocky hill to the south of us, properly loaded with part of the artillery reserve, offers a gorgeous field of fire over the open areas between the two armies. If Lee attacks, as you say he will, he'll be cut to pieces. If not, they will be in an excellent position to support VI Corps tomorrow."

"Then you intend an assault with Sedgwick?" Meade asked. Grant responded: "Everything is in the air, too many people haven't shown up yet, General. Besides, if I were working with officers and soldiers I knew, I could determine what our actions should be without hesitation. Without that knowledge, much is going to depend on you, General Meade." Meade was taken aback by this. "I'll talk with Sykes, General Grant. If I'm going to load up that rocky hill with guns they'll need heavy protection, for certain." Grant dismissed Meade, and turned back to the skyline.

Grant thought: "Frustration doesn't begin to describe all this. I feel like a semi-paralyzed giant."

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

You can just see the steam venting from Meade's ears.

I like the way that you have started this, and i especially like the fact that you have had Grant 'watch' all of the performing Generals on the first day. Perhaps, if you/we are lucky, in this timeline, Buford may live a little longer. He was a promising cavalryman after all.

Also, If you move the V corps up to Little Round top earlier, with artillery, then the necessity for Chamberlin's bayonet charge reluctantly decreases. Also, it would make Longstreet's idea of moving around the extreme left and flanking from the rear more advisable. If the confederates attack with the same agenda they did in OTL, then it will totally destroy their chances of success in the battle overall. Thing could possibly become worse.

There is one thing i cannot wait for though. SICKLES.

the days of the political generals are over. Their careers hang by a thread, even though they don't know it.

Just to see him weasel his way out of his screw-up on the second day will be the highlight of this story - well, for me anyway.

---

Ok. I like the way that this is going. I would like to see more, eventually.

 

[usertron2020]

I hear a voice, crying in the wilderness...

You can just see the steam venting from Meade's ears.

I like the way that you have started this, and i especially like the fact that you have had Grant 'watch' all of the performing Generals on the first day. Perhaps, if you/we are lucky, in this timeline, Buford may live a little longer. He was a promising cavalryman after all.

Also, If you move the V corps up to Little Round top earlier, with artillery, then the necessity for Chamberlin's bayonet charge reluctantly decreases. Also, it would make Longstreet's idea of moving around the extreme left and flanking from the rear more advisable. If the confederates attack with the same agenda they did in OTL, then it will totally destroy their chances of success in the battle overall. Thing could possibly become worse.

There is one thing i cannot wait for though. SICKLES.



Just to see him weasel his way out of his screw-up on the second day will be the highlight of this story - well, for me anyway.

---

Ok. I like the way that this is going. I would like to see more, eventually.

THANK YOU JamesPhoenix. At least now I know SOMEONE is reading my TL.

As to your points, it frustrates me that I can't answer them in such a detailed TL since I'm already working on each that you've raised, including Sickles. I don't want to give away the story since there WILL be some surprises coming. But I don't want the VMI Brigade (My nickname for the ACW history professors on this site) to start screamimg ASB! Buford died of typhoid in December. It was an occupational hazard of living in the 19th Century.
As far as 'watching' the AotP Corps Commanders, Grant's hands have been forced. IOTL, he was able to gently move in and interview officers at a controlled pace. Now, events are dictating that he make his personnel decisions on a more instinctive level, though, as said, with Meade as his chief advisor of personnel.
Chamberlain's bayonet charge? Well, that was very glorious and all, but I seriously doubt he did more than save Rice's Brigade. Sheer absolute exhaustion from continued forced marching, constant battle (UPHILL!) and actual dehydration had taken their toll of Hood's division. The local wells had been completely drained by the time they had arrived on the battlefield. I can't say more about the Little Round Top yet, and you'll get NOTHING from me about Big Round Top and Longstreet's ideas.

As to the Round Tops, have you been there? I have, and there's good reason why the Confederates went through THREE separate battle plans on the Second Day just on the right flank alone! Terrain, timing, and above all fog of war. No Confederate Army suffered more from all three than the AoNV did at Gettysburg. They were lucky on the latter half of the First Day. Not so lucky on the Second. The Third...

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

From what little I remember of the ACW, depending on Sickles to defend the artillery is ... iffy.

 

[Hyperion]

Given that the western theater has ceased to exist, what Confederate army units or officers would not be at Gettysburg this time around.

Also, I figure you could probably add 20 to 30 thousand troops to the Union army.

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

Given that the western theater has ceased to exist, what Confederate army units or officers would not be at Gettysburg this time around.

Also, I figure you could probably add 20 to 30 thousand troops to the Union army.

Yeah. See, now that is a good point. Since the War in the west basically finished earlier, that means that Sherman is about to begin his march towards Atlanta and hence, the sea, but, if Grant is at Gettysburg then there could be such a chance that there are extra reinforcements on the way, forces that are not apart of the army of the potomac.

Hypothetically, you could say that these extra troops will arrive within a week, and they could pursue the Confederate Army south into VIrginia whilst the AotP proper recuperates...

 

[Hyperion]

Yeah. See, now that is a good point. Since the War in the west basically finished earlier, that means that Sherman is about to begin his march towards Atlanta and hence, the sea, but, if Grant is at Gettysburg then there could be such a chance that there are extra reinforcements on the way, forces that are not apart of the army of the potomac.

Hypothetically, you could say that these extra troops will arrive within a week, and they could pursue the Confederate Army south into VIrginia whilst the AotP proper recuperates...

Other things to consider.

As the POD basically cuts Texas, Louisiana, and Arkansas off from the rest of the south roughly a year ahead of time, might there be any units from those areas that fought for the Confederacy at Gettysburg, or at the very least some individual officers, that might be either dead, POWs, or simply stuck on the wrong side of the Mississippi?

If we are only talking a few people, then it may not matter.

OTOH, if entire regiments or any high level officers or generals have been removed, then this could drastically change things.

If the situation in the deep south near Atlanta or elsewhere is more dire for the Confederacy this time around, some units that where from those states that served at Gettysburg in OTL might consider guarding their homes in Georgia or the Carolinas to be a bit more of a pressing concern this time around.

Other things from the POD itself.

Where there any relevant Confederate officers or units that fought at Shiloh that in OTL ended up at Gettysburg, that might not be around now given Shiloh being a major defeat for the south?

 

[usertron2020]

Dathi THofinsson, French Canadian freedom fighter

From what little I remember of the ACW, depending on Sickles to defend the artillery is ... iffy.

It's not iffy. It's INSANE. Sickles (and his III Corps) is right where he was IOTL on the southern half of Cemetery Ridge. It is SYKES (and his V Corps) who is being sent to protect Little Round Top, as he did IOTL, but far far earlier. By your profile it looks like you are Quebecois, so you are VERY forgiven for mis-reading the two names.

PS This is where you tell me you are a professor of languages at Yale University.

 

[usertron2020]

Answers, Answers, and more questions...

Given that the western theater has ceased to exist, what Confederate army units or officers would not be at Gettysburg this time around.

Also, I figure you could probably add 20 to 30 thousand troops to the Union army.

*Sigh* I guess my hand is being forced here. At this stage of the war the armies that were destroyed at Shiloh and captured at Vicksburg have largely been reconstituted. Before the flamethrowers start, let me point out a few minor details about those battles and the subsequent results regarding POWs.

First, at Shiloh, even with Grant ready and waiting for the Confederates the main changes would be no Hornet's Nest, no butchery of Grant's army, with massive casualties for A.S. Johnston's (the most overrated general in the Confederate Army IMHO) forces. ITTL, there were massive amounts of Confederate prisoners taken, yes (And even more at Vicksburg).

But throughout the war, until Grant's taking over, regular prisoner exchanges allowed the Confederates to quickliy replenish their ranks. I am not going to say what the status was of returning Union POWs, because I don't want this ATL to degenerate into a flame war.

The statements about the war in the Deep South being over ITTL SHOULD be true, but it doesn't take into account the personality of one Braxton Bragg, who through legalistic chicanery violated the terms of the paroles of the Army of the Mississippi veterans, who were forced to rejoin the ranks under penalty of death. The exchanges for Shiloh simply makeup for the always higher proportional loss/capture rate of the AotP. Meaning that the eastern troops will simply enjoy much less time in the dungeons of Fort Libby.

Moreover, the 2 year volunteers are now leaving the AotP daily, and they are NOT staying. So the army is still hurting for men. BUT, the much higher number of Confederate prisoners to be exchanged means that those regiments that are primarily made up of 3 year or later volunteers will have a stronger unit for unit fighting strength. No real number of "hundred man regiments", that sort of thing.

As to 20,000 to 30,000 more troops? Most of those will be fighting in Sherman's forces, the Mobile campaign, or have not yet been redeployed from areas where Grant wisely called off offensive operations. He hated politically sponsored actions that were strategically irrelevant.

Also, the nature of Northern Alabama and Northern Mississippi (the Barrens some called them) really didn't allow for hard military control. Hence, the Confederates are still in a position to exercise control of the Deep South heartland (Birmingham, Selma, Montgomery, Mobile, and still Georgia).

Political interference from Washington forced on Grant and Sherman an Eastern Tennessee campaign they didn't want. Lincoln was insistent, however. Knoxville and its surrounding areas represented the only area in the Confederate heartland to remain loyal to the Union (more or less). It even represented a source of Pro-Union manpower for the Union Army.

On that basis, the resources for an invasion of Georgia would be sapped for the time being, and the height of summer is NOT campaign season in the Deep South anyway. It's a better time to raise and train new troops and replacements, build up supply depots, repair bridges and railroads, and deal with cavalry raiders.

Finally, as far as what units would not be with Lee ITTL? IOTL, Lee would send Longstreet's Corps off during colder weather to support western operations such as Chickamauga and the Battle of Knoxville. ITTL, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE HEIGHT OF THE AoNVs' CAMPAIGN SEASON. Other than a trickle of individual deserters, everyone who was there IOTL, is there ITTL.

There are no significant officers who were at the western battles AND Gettysburg. Most of them were either disgraced, not promoted, or shifted to secondary theaters. Davis wanted to blame Beauregard for Shiloh and Joe Johnston for Vicksburg. But Beauregard was only second in command at Shiloh, and had no idea Buell was about to arrive. Since when did Yankees arrive in the nick of time? And it was Pemberton, the Yankee who went South, who surrendered at Vicksburg (Obviously, he was still working for the Union Army's Division of Covert Operations all along!).

This essentially puts Johnston in Georgia, with Beauregard in Charleston.

I know! I know! I know what you are thinking. Chickamauga? Please be patient.

 

[usertron2020]

Richmond has nothing left to send us... Robert E. Lee at Gettysburg

Yeah. See, now that is a good point. Since the War in the west basically finished earlier, that means that Sherman is about to begin his march towards Atlanta and hence, the sea, but, if Grant is at Gettysburg then there could be such a chance that there are extra reinforcements on the way, forces that are not apart of the army of the potomac.

Hypothetically, you could say that these extra troops will arrive within a week, and they could pursue the Confederate Army south into VIrginia whilst the AotP proper recuperates...

Err, right. You guys are waaaayyyyy into my wavelength on this ATL. I deeply appreciate the interest not to mention the advice about West vs East butterflies. Personally, I should let you know that while I honor the Butterfly, I do not accept his image as Mothra. I am something of a Tolstoyan when it comes to events in general (No, Lee DOESN'T take Washington, the Japs DO NOT take Australia, and Hitler DOESN"T take London), but a believer in the Great Man Theory when it comes to particular actions (Yes, Buford DOES choose Gettysburg, Wellington DOES reach Waterloo in time, and Morgan ALWAYS pastes Tarleton).

As far as you are concerned JamesPhoenix, grrr. You are so right but I don't want to give anything away yet. Before I got permission to promote this to a TL, I had the idea of throwing VIII Corps right into the battle. But they are just not there. ALL the Corps in the East outside the AotP are currently performing vital duties elsewhere, but please, again, I ask for patience.

 

[usertron2020]

The Yankees are coming! The Yankees are coming!

Other things to consider.

As the POD basically cuts Texas, Louisiana, and Arkansas off from the rest of the south roughly a year ahead of time, might there be any units from those areas that fought for the Confederacy at Gettysburg, or at the very least some individual officers, that might be either dead, POWs, or simply stuck on the wrong side of the Mississippi?

If we are only talking a few people, then it may not matter.

OTOH, if entire regiments or any high level officers or generals have been removed, then this could drastically change things.

If the situation in the deep south near Atlanta or elsewhere is more dire for the Confederacy this time around, some units that where from those states that served at Gettysburg in OTL might consider guarding their homes in Georgia or the Carolinas to be a bit more of a pressing concern this time around.

Other things from the POD itself.

Where there any relevant Confederate officers or units that fought at Shiloh that in OTL ended up at Gettysburg, that might not be around now given Shiloh being a major defeat for the south?

There was actually very little west to east traffic of military forces, as the circumstances in the West was always so much more dire. However, if anyone has specific knowledge of a unit(s) that did make the trek I'd be happy to include them. But as I stipulated earlier, due to the exchange program, refilling the ranks was relatively easy for the South up to this time.

The Transmississippi units in the AotP were mostly first rush veterans now fully under the mystique of the Marble Man, Lee. They were fighting less and less for their states and more and more for the Confederacy, and Lee. Nothing like this had been seen since Washington, and nothing like it would be seen again. They were not going anywhere. They were fully cognizant of the fact that their families back home were better fed, clothed, and protected (no blockade thanks to Napoleon III's puppet in Mexico) than any other civilians in the South.

The Deep South units? They knew full well that if they went home the AotP would destroy the AoNV and simply follow behind them, ending the war before the Deep South AoNV veterans even had a chance to fight Sherman.

The main effects on the AoNV being cutoff from the Transmississippi manpower pools will simply mean some units (e.g., the Texas Brigade) will suffer some extra attrition but their striking power will not be markedly affected. Remember, until Gettysburg the AoNV never took casualties more serious than the AotP, except for Malvern Hill, a full year before this battle. If you want a idea of Malvern Hill, think Pickett's Charge Lite.

So what are we looking at? An AoNV with a slightly more anemic force than IOTL, and an AotP with a more strengthened force unit for unit, but as mentally curbstomped as ever.

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

Ok. I shall lay off you until the next story post, but until then...

Personally, I should let you know that while I honor the Butterfly, I do not accept his image as Mothra.

HA HA HA HA HA HA LOL.

Either make this your sig, or i will make it into mine. Because this is damn brilliant.

 

[stevep]

usertron2020 & all

This is a pretty deep TL and if your not strongly into the ACW [or possibly simply not born in the US] its a bit difficult relating names, units and positions. Would it be possible to get a sketch of the basic terrain and deployment of forces please? That would make it a lot easier for those of us without your in-depth knowledge to follow in a meaningful way. Or possibly, if its currently a close enough match to OTL at this point, other than grant being in charge, a link to a map of the battlefield. That would be a great help.

Thanks

Steve

 

[Grimm Reaper]

I hate to be cruel...I usually don't, but this time usetron2020 has worked hard to make this work so there's a touch of remorse entering my soul.


Two problems come to mind...

1) Lee's invasion of the North was his strategic choice to try to divert the growing Union position in the West, especially around Vicksburg. If he had not launched this offensive then his only option was to either send a large portion of the ANV west or even lead a contingent himself.

If the situation in the West is much worse for the CSA then the invasion no longer has a strategic purpose and risking the CSA's major remaining field army is not wise, which Lee would certainly realize.


2) A.S. Johnston has gotten something of a bum rap due to his command consistently getting shafted by Jefferson Davis and his Department of War. No one has ever questioned his courage yet he stated in writing during the first year of the ACW that there would be no fighting which he could avoid by any means, and for a simple reason: "I have no (gun)powder."

 

[usertron2020]

Thank you!!!!

Grimm Reaper

Lol. It's A-OK. I ASKED (begged) for help on this ATL, and help is what you gave me. I am NOT a historian, amateur or professional. I just have a passing interest in Ulysses S. Grant AND the Battle of Gettysburg. That didn't stop me from buying $200 of Grant and general ACW texts to help out.

Your comments are NOTHING compared to the flame wars I was expecting once this became a full-blown ATL. Maybe the VMI Brigade just haven't noticed it yet (I can only hope). Or perhaps they consider the caliber of the writer so weak it would be a matter of shooting fish in a bucket. I thought I would fire a BB and then get the return fire in the form of Minuteman missiles!

I have to go but I'll respond to your comment later tonight. Thank you and keep 'em coming, EVERYBODY.

 

[usertron2020]

What are you doing so close to the battle line, sir?

A.S. Johnston has gotten something of a bum rap due to his command consistently getting shafted by Jefferson Davis and his Department of War. No one has ever questioned his courage yet he stated in writing during the first year of the ACW that there would be no fighting which he could avoid by any means, and for a simple reason: "I have no (gun)powder."

Grimm Reaper

I have to answer these responses as fast as I can, so please bear with me. I have always felt that it was his strategic deployments, stripping New Orleans to throw everything into Shiloh, that led to his undoing. Also, putting just enough forces into Ft. Donelson to turn it into absolute disaster while not giving them enough to actually FIGHT the battle.

The results of Ft. Donelson indicate A.S. Johnston may have been counting too much on the values of fortifications, weather, and typical Yankee sloth, incompetence, and overcaution (perhaps even incaution, if reckless bloody assaults were made).
And Shiloh? Beauregard begged A.S. Johnston not to launch an all-out assault, but A.S. Johnston was determined to attack. NO ONE CAN CHALLENGE GENERAL A.S. JOHNSTON'S COURAGE IN BATTLE, BUT AS A DEPARTMENT COMMANDER IT WAS HIS DUTY TO LEAVE THE COMMAND OF THE ARMY TO BEAUREGARD. He was the only army commander to be KIA, but this does not reflect well on him. It's not the job of four-stars to "take that hill".
Lee was almost killed at the Second Battle of the Mule Shoe, when the mighty Stonewall Brigade was overrun by the entire Union II Corps. The Texas Brigade saved the situation, but only after they halted to the screams: "Lee to the rear! Lee to the rear!". Lee, realizing the Texans would not move forward until HE retreated, did so.

 

[usertron2020]

Computers 099

usertron2020 & all

This is a pretty deep TL and if your not strongly into the ACW [or possibly simply not born in the US] its a bit difficult relating names, units and positions. Would it be possible to get a sketch of the basic terrain and deployment of forces please? That would make it a lot easier for those of us without your in-depth knowledge to follow in a meaningful way. Or possibly, if its currently a close enough match to OTL at this point, other than grant being in charge, a link to a map of the battlefield. That would be a great help.

Thanks

Steve

Stevep

Sadly, my working knowledge of computers is quite Luddite, to say the least. Even worse, I have a MAC. As such, I've become quite accustomed to computers refusing to do business with me. At least I'm immune to viruses.

I don't even know how to establish links. If others want to do so, feel free. (PLEASE). I also don't know how to implant maps. But at this juncture the situation ITTL really has only one difference from OTL. The V Corps AotP along with a good portion of the Artillery Reserve is on it's way to Little Round Top, rather than sitting in the rear behind Cemetery Ridge.