Graf Spee sunk by French

Were there more ships designed to engage Panzershiffes than actual Panzershiffes?

Well there was 8 'Panzershiffe' if we include the 5 Hippers (@ 16,000+ |Tons very heavy - heavy Cruisers) along with the 3 Deutschlands - which were lighter but with 11 inch guns.

So no I don't think so if you meaning the 2 Alaska-class and the 2 Dunkerques?
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Well there was 8 'Panzershiffe' if we include the 5 Hippers (@ 16,000+ |Tons very heavy - heavy Cruisers) along with the 3 Deutschlands - which were lighter but with 11 inch guns.

So no I don't think so if you meaning the 2 Alaska-class and the 2 Dunkerques?
Ah, the Hippers count as well. Right. I was wondering, because I was thinking - there were multiple Dunkerque and multiple Alaska, and I think there were only three Deutschlands...
 
Ah, the Hippers count as well. Right. I was wondering, because I was thinking - there were multiple Dunkerque and multiple Alaska, and I think there were only three Deutschlands...
I don't think they do, I've never heard them as such and the Germans didn't consider the Hippers as such, they considered the two types separate

They were planning on building 3 more by taking the turrets off the Twins when they upgunned them to 38cm, but as you know they never had the chance to do so

Course if you count all 5 Hippers rather than the 3 actually built you have to count all 6 Alaska's rather than the two built
 
Were there more ships designed to engage Panzershiffes than actual Panzershiffes?

IIRC, the Alaska's were supposedly built to not only face the Panzershiffes but also a class of Japanese battlecruisers [1] whose very existence was later proven to be spurious.

1] "Chichima-class"?:confused:
 
Graf Spee sunk by French:
"Maudit espece de Boche, que tu te noye et tous tes matelots, aussi. Que le Diable te prend, nef, corps et ames. Que les poissons s'empoisonnent avec votre chairs"

Something like that?
 
I don't think they do, I've never heard them as such and the Germans didn't consider the Hippers as such, they considered the two types separate

They were planning on building 3 more by taking the turrets off the Twins when they upgunned them to 38cm, but as you know they never had the chance to do so

Course if you count all 5 Hippers rather than the 3 actually built you have to count all 6 Alaska's rather than the two built

Except Seydlitz, and Lützow were actually launched which would imply the built part.

Unlike the other 4 Alaskas....3 of which were not built and the 4th never completed or commissioned.
 

sharlin

Banned
I suppose the other French ship that could probably give a Panzershiffe a run for its money was the Algerie, she was probably the finest treaty cruiser and was better protected than the Panzershiffes. She really was a first class vessel.
 
The only 'issue' the Frenchman might have is shell dispersion, this plagued their quad turrets until post war as it was a rather new thing to have so many guns firing so close to one another and the blast of the guns going off could and did disrupt the shells as they left the barrels. The French quad turrets were in essence laid out as two twin turrets on the same mounting and they worked as pairs but fired as a quad and because there was no delay between each gun firing (they all went BANG at once) then the blast did its merry best to fuck with accuracy.

The TLDR version of this is that the Dunk's shooting is not going to be anything to write home about and will probably fire off a significant amount of ammo to sink the Spee. But when she does hit, then its devastating. Whilst her own armour is perfectly capable of resisting the 11 inch guns of the Spee.

The only way the Spee can overcome that is to get close, which suits the Dunk just fine. The Spee cannot run, she can't sink her opponent and can only sting her unless she gets close, which the Frenchman probably won't allow as she can control the engagement with her speed.

Interesting indeed. Naturally Dunkerque has several advantages, but this should be considered when counting the hits. Also, the 11 incl shells are far from harmless. Start out very fast, but they slows faster than heavyer shells. This actually means they drop faster at long range with good deck penetration.
 
Except Seydlitz, and Lützow were actually launched which would imply the built part.

Unlike the other 4 Alaskas....3 of which were not built and the 4th never completed or commissioned.
Launched does not mean built, launched means pretty much that the ship can float, completed means it actually entered commission

The third Alaska was launched as well, but you aren't counting her as complete while you are counting Seydlitz and Lutzow as complete

Off course completing Seydlitz and Lutzow is possible, but that could butterfly the decision regarding the last three Alaskas

In either case this is talking about Pocket Battleships, which the Germans themselves said the Hipper class was not
 
I believe that she fired something like 70% of her main gun ammo vs Force H

(Checks Wiki....yep 2/3rd ammo gone)

So if no Battle of River plate then no ammo issues

Hmm...makes the Graf Spee's skipper look better then. If you've expended 2/3rds of your ammo versus Force H, you'd have to expect that the magazines at this point would be down to just HE & GP for the most point, as well as smoke and flare shells. If you've got say only 5-8 full AP salvoes left to go up against Force H, that's almost suicide. You'd need much of that just to straddle the fresh RN heavy cruiser Cumberland, while ignoring Ajax and Achilles. Reminds me of how the Houston went down, one aft turret left, and firing flares shells by the bitter end.:(
 
Hmm...makes the Graf Spee's skipper look better then. If you've expended 2/3rds of your ammo versus Force H, you'd have to expect that the magazines at this point would be down to just HE & GP for the most point, as well as smoke and flare shells. If you've got say only 5-8 full AP salvoes left to go up against Force H, that's almost suicide. You'd need much of that just to straddle the fresh RN heavy cruiser Cumberland, while ignoring Ajax and Achilles. Reminds me of how the Houston went down, one aft turret left, and firing flares shells by the bitter end.:(

And the 2 Cruisers sunk off of Crete reduced to firing Practice pom pom ammo and 4" star shells at the LW bombers
 
Hmm...makes the Graf Spee's skipper look better then. If you've expended 2/3rds of your ammo versus Force H, you'd have to expect that the magazines at this point would be down to just HE & GP for the most point, as well as smoke and flare shells. If you've got say only 5-8 full AP salvoes left to go up against Force H, that's almost suicide. You'd need much of that just to straddle the fresh RN heavy cruiser Cumberland, while ignoring Ajax and Achilles. Reminds me of how the Houston went down, one aft turret left, and firing flares shells by the bitter end.:(

Her engines were apparently in a horrible state as well. In the footnotes of Whitley's book was a excerpt of the Spee's war diary and it's said that the engines were in such a bad shape that no gurantee for them could be given if a speed of 17 knots was exceeded.
This is mentioned along the battle damage, so probably wasn't realised until she had to do flank speed for hours.
 
Hmm...makes the Graf Spee's skipper look better then. If you've expended 2/3rds of your ammo versus Force H, you'd have to expect that the magazines at this point would be down to just HE & GP for the most point, as well as smoke and flare shells. If you've got say only 5-8 full AP salvoes left to go up against Force H, that's almost suicide. You'd need much of that just to straddle the fresh RN heavy cruiser Cumberland, while ignoring Ajax and Achilles. Reminds me of how the Houston went down, one aft turret left, and firing flares shells by the bitter end.:(

I read that before the HOUSTON's last engagements, the crew hand carried all of the shells from the damaged turret to the two undamaged turrets.
 
“The Battle for Christmas Day” Part Three – ATL Sink the Admiral Graf Spee

“The Battle for Christmas Day” Part Three – ATL Sink the Admiral Graf Spee – 24th/25th Dec 1940


The strike was already 5 minutes over due and the pilot of the shadowing Loire 130 decided to break radio silence and call them

No answer. A second attempt by the radio operator after getting roundly abused by the pilot got a response from Bearn saying that they should have arrived already

With just over 30 minutes of sunlight left the pilot decided that the time for subtleness was gone.

Hauling back on the control column and increasing power to the aircrafts 12 Cylinder engine and began to climb and at 1000 m altitude he flipped on the navigation lights and began to circle

There was now 25 minutes until sundown

Mean while the Strike group which was about 5 kms North and later than planned due to a head wind a spotter on the strike leaders PL10 had spotted the lights to the south

Realising what this meant the strike leader immediately turned the formation south and in minutes they had rendezvoused with the amphibian and there just to the east of them was the prize


On board the Graf Spee a shout “Aircraft Bearing One Nine Zero” came the cry from one of the spotters

All officers and spotters moved to look in that direction and then a report from the port 5.9 Director which had aligned itself to that bearing

“Multiple Aircraft Twelve Plus range 10,000 meters bearing Two Zero Zero, Height.....Three Thousand Meters”

For Captain Langsdorff this was a nightmare come true

He had seen firsthand the damage even a small bomb can do to a cruiser after seeing the damage to the Graf Spee’s sister ship Deutschland when she had been bombed and badly damaged by Spanish Republican Aircraft in 1937 while part of the International Non-Intervention Committee patrol

Another update from the Port side director

“Raid has split into 3 groups 1 high 2 low – low groups splitting to port and starboard”

Langsdorff immediately ordered general quarters and for the engines to go to maximum revolutions which added perhaps another half knot to her top speed despite a protest from his chief engineer and gave orders for the ship to start zig zagging

He realised with a cold certainty what the raid was doing 1 group of dive bombers – and 2 group of Torpedo planes. It would force him to split his AAA.

The next couple of minutes he knew would decide the fate of his ship the entire crew.

Langsdorf was not to know it but the ‘high group’ was not comprised of Dive bombers at all. Bearn did not carry any.

Instead the high group was comprised of the 4 Fighters and 2 Reconnaissance planes – the former, in case the Cruiser launched her aircraft and the latter for additional command and control of the strike.

Despite this almost half of Graf Spees weapons were directed at them and as the 3 groups of aircraft closed and one of the Dewoitine 373 was damaged forcing the high group to take evasive action.

The two low groups however had dropped down to wave top level and had begun to close in at over 100 kts

For all of the pilots this was the first time that they had attacked an enemy ship and the first time that they had been shot at

Pre war practice was that the chances of hitting a manoeuvring warship at speed with a torpedo went up exponentially the closer the weapon was dropped to the target.

But with multiple 2cm and 3.7cm tracers streaming out of the Cruiser at them and flak shells exploding above them most of the crews dropped their fish at maximum range and got the hell out

Two pilots however did not

The Senior pilot leading the port side group of torpedo planes did not and even while his fellows had dropped their fish and turned away this pilot waited until the Graf Spee ‘filled’ his forward horizon before dropping his fish and then died a second later as a 3.7 cm shell impacted one of the main struts and filled the cockpit and its 3 occupants with fragments.

The aircraft on fire one wing almost torn off flipped over and then cart wheeled across the ocean before resting up side down 400 meters from the Cruiser

The remaining aircraft was the strike squadron’s commanding officer.

He wasn’t scared.

He had been.

In fact, he had found to his shame that he had become increasingly scared ever since he had been ordered to plan the strike on the German Heavy Cruiser.

The knowledge that success was now down to the skill and bravery of his Squadron had not helped one little bit and the fear of Death, Injury and the possibility of failure had quite unmanned him.

Despite this he was determined to do his duty.

But had no intention of doing so sober and he had made sure that he had not one but two brandy filled hip flasks with him as he took off from the Bearn and by the time they had reached the Graf Spee and begun their attack both flasks were empty and he was, as he would shamelessly admit with a twinkle in his eye during post war interviews, in very good spirits.

He spent the entire attack run ignoring the increasingly heavy AAA, shouting vile curses at the German ship (while his Observer and gunner increasingly shouted vile curses at him) before dropping the torpedo at the last moment before pulling the biplane around in a creaking turn almost crossing over the Graf Spee’s stern before wave hopping away having not received so much as a scratch to the paint work.

Behind him first 1 and then a second torpedo slammed into the German ship.

TBC
 
I know the BEARN was nothing special but a POD where she gets some upgrades allowing her to operate Buffaloes and Vindicators to start the war would be interesting.
 
I know the BEARN was nothing special but a POD where she gets some upgrades allowing her to operate Buffaloes and Vindicators to start the war would be interesting.

Or F4F Wildcats?

I did smile when I looked up the aircraft that she was operating in 1939

It makes the Swordfish, Skua and Fulmar look positively Space aged

As for the Bearn - her lift arrangement was quite odd - from what I can tell it was like a 'street elevator' (as seen in Shaun of the dead!) with a cage that pushed open 'deck flaps' rather than a lift that formed part of the deck. Maybe there is an advantage in such a setup but I fail to see it!
 
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