Gone
- Thread starter othyrsyde
- Start date
I missed the update, my bad.
It's always a bit harder for me to parse the guatemalan updates. I get used to the nahuatl and related languages and then suddenly this stuff comes up.
The Guatemalan theater seems to be taking on an overall different character than the Mexico theater, it seems that the build-up is much more clearly coming together in opposition to Red Sun and the Spaniards in general. Plus the mention of not bothering to remember a "stupid Tlaxcalan's name" makes me think that Guatemala, or whatever states emerge in the area around there and southern OTL Mexico will consider themselves quite separate from the Nahuatl/Tlaxcalan/central peoples' states. The historical talk to what I'm assuming is younger children by a future person in the region also seems to be using less loanwords and fewer concepts from Christianity and the Spanish, which makes me think that they will be more firmly in the native religion/syncreticist camp compared to, say, the Tlaxcalans with their partial adoption of dress and adoption of Spanish/Christian names or some of the Mexica rebels under the Queen that are openly fond of some of the Franciscans and their ideas. They do mention that polygamy is no longer permitted, which could potentially be Christian influence, or it could be a mostly indigenous reform or borrowing to address issues of property, inheritance, etc. On the whole though, I'm getting a slightly more "foreign", if that's the right word, feel from the Guatemalans than the other areas.
I don't want to make too many predictions, but I am beginning to think the Spanish will create an India-like empire of mixed sovereignty relying on combinations of local rule and direct rule in Mexico and at best a *Protectorate of Guatemala, and at worst(for the Spaniards) a full or nearly independent (collection of) Maya state(s).
I also really enjoyed the conspirators and their situation. It was nice to see the adaptation towards cavalry warfare, even if it was only partially successful due to the panicking of Paco's square and relied a lot on Spanish arrogance and stupidity. Plus, it's really interesting to see people from all corners of the New Spanish society interacting and allying even when they have things they are really uncomfortable about, such as Juan with human sacrifice. I also really enjoyed Juan's little remembrances of Akan/Ashanti sayings and ideas. Plus, I have read in the past that the Iberian slavetrade had a very different understanding of the role of slaves prior to full colonization, but it's rare to see those situations where Africans were soldiers, naval crews, and artisans almost as often as they were laborers. I enjoyed the difference.
It's always a bit harder for me to parse the guatemalan updates. I get used to the nahuatl and related languages and then suddenly this stuff comes up.
The Guatemalan theater seems to be taking on an overall different character than the Mexico theater, it seems that the build-up is much more clearly coming together in opposition to Red Sun and the Spaniards in general. Plus the mention of not bothering to remember a "stupid Tlaxcalan's name" makes me think that Guatemala, or whatever states emerge in the area around there and southern OTL Mexico will consider themselves quite separate from the Nahuatl/Tlaxcalan/central peoples' states. The historical talk to what I'm assuming is younger children by a future person in the region also seems to be using less loanwords and fewer concepts from Christianity and the Spanish, which makes me think that they will be more firmly in the native religion/syncreticist camp compared to, say, the Tlaxcalans with their partial adoption of dress and adoption of Spanish/Christian names or some of the Mexica rebels under the Queen that are openly fond of some of the Franciscans and their ideas. They do mention that polygamy is no longer permitted, which could potentially be Christian influence, or it could be a mostly indigenous reform or borrowing to address issues of property, inheritance, etc. On the whole though, I'm getting a slightly more "foreign", if that's the right word, feel from the Guatemalans than the other areas.
I don't want to make too many predictions, but I am beginning to think the Spanish will create an India-like empire of mixed sovereignty relying on combinations of local rule and direct rule in Mexico and at best a *Protectorate of Guatemala, and at worst(for the Spaniards) a full or nearly independent (collection of) Maya state(s).
I also really enjoyed the conspirators and their situation. It was nice to see the adaptation towards cavalry warfare, even if it was only partially successful due to the panicking of Paco's square and relied a lot on Spanish arrogance and stupidity. Plus, it's really interesting to see people from all corners of the New Spanish society interacting and allying even when they have things they are really uncomfortable about, such as Juan with human sacrifice. I also really enjoyed Juan's little remembrances of Akan/Ashanti sayings and ideas. Plus, I have read in the past that the Iberian slavetrade had a very different understanding of the role of slaves prior to full colonization, but it's rare to see those situations where Africans were soldiers, naval crews, and artisans almost as often as they were laborers. I enjoyed the difference.
twovultures
Donor
Fascinating update-and it is very interesting to see African slaves joining the resistance!
The interactions of Africans and Native Americans produced some fascinating results in our timeline, militarily and culturally. It would be interesting to see an African contribution to the coming cultural exchange in the free Native states.
The interactions of Africans and Native Americans produced some fascinating results in our timeline, militarily and culturally. It would be interesting to see an African contribution to the coming cultural exchange in the free Native states.
I's all good, dude.
It's always a bit harder for me to parse the guatemalan updates. I get used to the nahuatl and related languages and then suddenly this stuff comes up.
The Guatemalan theater seems to be taking on an overall different character than the Mexico theater, it seems that the build-up is much more clearly coming together in opposition to Red Sun and the Spaniards in general. Plus the mention of not bothering to remember a "stupid Tlaxcalan's name" makes me think that Guatemala, or whatever states emerge in the area around there and southern OTL Mexico will consider themselves quite separate from the Nahuatl/Tlaxcalan/central peoples' states. The historical talk to what I'm assuming is younger children by a future person in the region also seems to be using less loanwords and fewer concepts from Christianity and the Spanish, which makes me think that they will be more firmly in the native religion/syncreticist camp compared to, say, the Tlaxcalans with their partial adoption of dress and adoption of Spanish/Christian names or some of the Mexica rebels under the Queen that are openly fond of some of the Franciscans and their ideas. They do mention that polygamy is no longer permitted, which could potentially be Christian influence, or it could be a mostly indigenous reform or borrowing to address issues of property, inheritance, etc. On the whole though, I'm getting a slightly more "foreign", if that's the right word, feel from the Guatemalans than the other areas.
I don't want to make too many predictions, but I am beginning to think the Spanish will create an India-like empire of mixed sovereignty relying on combinations of local rule and direct rule in Mexico and at best a *Protectorate of Guatemala, and at worst(for the Spaniards) a full or nearly independent (collection of) Maya state(s).
As you said, there is definitely a different theme in Guatemala vs what's going on in Central Mexico. A big part of it is different leadership and a very different political landscape. The Spaniards didn't have a central authority to not only replace, but build an effective indigenous coalition against. The K'iche's empire was largely gone for a generation before Colombus even stumbled upon the Caribbean. And when Alvarado/Red Sun marched there, the power vacuum from their fall had yet to be filled. Plus you factor in Alvarado/Red Sun's brutality and impatience toward even his allies also failed to rally anyone to his side for long. His rule was maintained through sheer brutality, and he faced numerous rebellions through his 15 year or so reign of terror; also unlike what Cortes accomplished in Mexico, he almost completely failed in co-opting the Maya nobility into the Spanish colonial government. If it wasn't for generations of mistrust, and the general exhaustion from decades of war coupled with the European pandemics, he would have most likely faced defeat.
As for the events of TTL, there was a tipping point that pushed everyone over the edge at the right time. In effect creating a perfect storm of resistance. Now we need to see is how an effective coalition can be created by the more far-seeing parties. This also plays into how the area develops. Since it's more about coming together than factional infighting in the north, the area's society, government, and religion will tip more on the indigenous side than Euro-Christian. The lack of polygamy is an effect of this "Christianization" though.
As for the narrator talking to her children, it's a Xochitl from the opening narrative in Update #2. It wasn't as clear as Salazar being the narrator in the updates in Mexico, so sorry about that. From now on when it switches over to the 1st person POVs, I'll try to make it more clearer.
When it came to the conspirators, I wanted to reflect the heterogeneous nature of the Conquistadors' armies. This also gets into how slavery was different, especially for Africans, in the earlier colonial period than what's generally pictured. My goal was similar to what Jonathan accomplished in Malê Rising, in humanizing and showing the role the colonized played in empires. It's a refute of a post in another thread debating surviving indigenous polities, stating "The story of the Americas post-1492 is the story of the English, Spanish, Dutch, and French."
And I'm very happy you enjoyed the portrayal, along with all the other tidbits.
Exactly. It's a history that is greatly overlooked, and goes into my response to Jord, about the role of the colonized played in challenging colonialism - from outright military challenges to adaptions. And Native-African relations will be explored even more in the next update since we're going to see how the Caribbean is being effected by this war. (Hopefully sooner than later too
)Thank you both for commenting.
The Maya have learned how to deal with cavalry in stand-up battles, which is a major step. As you say, they're just starting to figure it out, and their victory had a lot to do with the conquistadors' own formation being disorganized - but next time they'll do better, and the knowledge that they can stand up to cavalry charges will be worth a great deal.
I suspect that, in time, the combination of disease, gunpowder and internal divisions will force the Maya to submit, but they're likely to get much better terms than OTL, and to survive at least as princely states. That could also end up affecting how the Spaniards ultimately deal with the Andes.
Excellent stuff as always.
I suspect that, in time, the combination of disease, gunpowder and internal divisions will force the Maya to submit, but they're likely to get much better terms than OTL, and to survive at least as princely states. That could also end up affecting how the Spaniards ultimately deal with the Andes.
Excellent stuff as always.
Yep. I figured this was a pretty realistic portrayal of them adopting anti-cav tactics for the first time, especially considering the arrogance, disorganization, and small amount they were going up against. And as you said, they now have the knowledge and confidence they can stand up to the horse.
Definitely, but I don't want to get anymore specific and spoil what's coming.
Thank you very much.
Thank you too. Hopefully it won't be too much longer. Most of the update following this is already written, but we all know how RL can shift our focus on other things.
Interesting Historical Fact!
Discovered some facts on the formation of the colonial caste system some of y'all might find interesting. In the early decades of Spanish rule they divided mestizos into two categories.The first category were those who were raised more by Natives, which is how the term I used in the last update, Guajiro,came to be used; especially knowing it's original meaning of "a person of the country/forest" (Puerto Rico's Jibaro had a similar meaning too), and how this Taino term came to evolve into meaning "One of us". The other type of mestizos, ones generally acknowledged by their Spanish fathers and taking up more of their culture, were called Criollos in fact. Those who don't know, this term was for the all-white elite that were born in the colonies. So it's kind of funny how this was used as a term for mixed race people that they would come to despise in a few generations, and desperately prove they weren't long after independence (and even up until today sadly). Also makes sense why it's adaption in other languages (like creole) has come to imply mixed people and languages. Something I always thought was funny considering how it's more commonly used in Latin America, but it all makes sense now.
So this goes to show, along with African Ladinos, how fluid the concept of race was and its role in early colonialism. The term mestizo itself didn't come into use until the 1530s in fact. So there's my FWI.
Discovered some facts on the formation of the colonial caste system some of y'all might find interesting. In the early decades of Spanish rule they divided mestizos into two categories.The first category were those who were raised more by Natives, which is how the term I used in the last update, Guajiro,came to be used; especially knowing it's original meaning of "a person of the country/forest" (Puerto Rico's Jibaro had a similar meaning too), and how this Taino term came to evolve into meaning "One of us". The other type of mestizos, ones generally acknowledged by their Spanish fathers and taking up more of their culture, were called Criollos in fact. Those who don't know, this term was for the all-white elite that were born in the colonies. So it's kind of funny how this was used as a term for mixed race people that they would come to despise in a few generations, and desperately prove they weren't long after independence (and even up until today sadly). Also makes sense why it's adaption in other languages (like creole) has come to imply mixed people and languages. Something I always thought was funny considering how it's more commonly used in Latin America, but it all makes sense now.
So this goes to show, along with African Ladinos, how fluid the concept of race was and its role in early colonialism. The term mestizo itself didn't come into use until the 1530s in fact. So there's my FWI.
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Happy Indigenous Peoples Day!
It's what they changed genocide man's holiday into in my city.
Hooray!
I assume that's what it will be ITTL too
Hooray!
I assume that's what it will be ITTL too
Thanks. As for TTL's Colombus Day or Indigenous People's Day (or whatever), I have no clue how that would turn out yet. Though in the next update I do get into his son, Diego Colombus's actions.
In all seriousness, as to how future people will view the colonization of the Americas and indigenous people in TTL, it will be different. As we know in OTL there wasn't a spot where indigenous cultures weren't almost completely marginalized or outright obliterated. In TTL things will be very different. There will still be plenty of areas that become settler and "creole" colonies, while others will reflect more those of Asia and Africa. It's going to be very interesting to explore.
Anyways, I'm going to be absent from AH.com for probably the rest of the month. I have some rl work stuff that is taking precedence. Also I want finish the next three updates, which are all close to being finished. I've been bouncing between them to keep up my writing interests and to make sure they all vibe together too. So November will be a nice month of several updates instead of this once a month crap.
So I'll see you all then, and have an early Happy Halloween (if you celebrate that).
Deleted member 67076
Wonderful job so far. Not done reading the update but I just have to go in and praise the quality.
Also, you're welcome. It was wonderful to help out.
Also, you're welcome. It was wonderful to help out.
Good to see this back, and I'm happy to have been of help.
Looks like this may be the last of the Native revolts but the first of the maroon revolts, with a syncretic Taino-Christian-Afro-Islamic society in the process of forming. Unfortunately it seems that there is internal conflict on the horizon, which may be why the rebellion doesn't succeed, but like the Jamaica and Surinamese maroons, these rebels could retreat to the mountains and hold out there a long time. And even if the rebellion fails, Valdes' decision could have many consequences for the future.
Looks like this may be the last of the Native revolts but the first of the maroon revolts, with a syncretic Taino-Christian-Afro-Islamic society in the process of forming. Unfortunately it seems that there is internal conflict on the horizon, which may be why the rebellion doesn't succeed, but like the Jamaica and Surinamese maroons, these rebels could retreat to the mountains and hold out there a long time. And even if the rebellion fails, Valdes' decision could have many consequences for the future.
I, the artist formerly known as Novak, am happy to have been of some help. The only thing on my mind is how is Madrid taking all of these revolts? Surely having Heathens successfully resist their rule, even on smaller islands, would infuriate officials.
The only thing on my mind is how is Madrid taking all of these revolts? Surely having Heathens successfully resist their rule, even on smaller islands, would infuriate officials.Excellent update. Good to see the ripples spreading, and I admit, I had thought the Taino more or less done for by this point in history and it is good to be proven wrong on that.
That said, my cynicism still is showing in that I can't help but think there's a lot of internal conflict and bloodshed coming between the Castillian-run reformers, old-style authorities, syncretic Christians, and the Islamic/pagan remnants. Seems like someone's going to come out as a loser in the chaos besides the old-style encomienda owners, and that's not going to be a happy situation.
That said, my cynicism still is showing in that I can't help but think there's a lot of internal conflict and bloodshed coming between the Castillian-run reformers, old-style authorities, syncretic Christians, and the Islamic/pagan remnants. Seems like someone's going to come out as a loser in the chaos besides the old-style encomienda owners, and that's not going to be a happy situation.
Wonderful job so far. Not done reading the update but I just have to go in and praise the quality.
Also, you're welcome. It was wonderful to help out.
Thank you, and glad you enjoyed what you read so far. Hope to hear more when you finish reading it.
It's indeed great to have another update finally up. I just had to read two whole books and some academic articles to get all the info presented, which is what took me so long
. Obviously it paid off, and it's great to be able to show it all off, from the complexity of the Taino's ethinic and ligustic make up to Warokuya's Rebellion. Happy you enjoyed it. Even in OTL, Warokuya's Rebellion was both the last great indigenous rebellion and a bridge to the Maroon revolts. And indeed, the internal conflict, which is colored by both egos and religious differences, is going to come to head in how this situation is resolved, but I don't want to give too much away. Overall, the seeds for TTL's Caribbean having a much different course than OTL are planted here.
And big thanks for the help with Igbo and Akan. I'm going to go over the pronunciation guide you sent me with some more detail to make sure what's already posted is correct when I fix the formatting errors.
I, the artist formerly known as Novak, am happy to have been of some help.
Ah, I had no idea you changed your name, lol. And your help is very appreciated for this update, and just giving me access to the pure knowledge.
In this period, Toledo is actually the seat of the Spanish kingdom in this period. As for Emperor Charles's reaction, this will indeed infuriate him, and plays into why the mentioned "German Crusades" will come about. This in turn will also effect how Spain comes to deal with resolving the post-war situation in the Americas.
Actually at this point Natives were still the largest population in the Greater Antilles. Focusing on Hispaniola, there was about 15 to 20 thousand Natives, of which the majority were Taino. Meanwhile, the African and other non-Indian slave labor was between 10 to 15 thousand; and those considered Spaniards were around 4,000. The often cited "600 remaining Taino" in the 1520s is taken from some really flawed census material that ignored swaths of the actual population counted in other records. By the demographics you can see why the Spanish feared a revolt, and why they didn't just ignore Warokuya even in OTL. If he could successfully hold them off, why couldn't other slaves?
As for the dynamics coming from within and without the factions in the Sankofa Rising, internal conflict, compromises, etc that will really effect the outcome, which won't be all rainbows and butterflies for everyone. Also internal conflict is unavoidable and realistic to expect, just from my own personal experience in activist movements, let alone studying other revolts and social movements in history. Going with my reply to Jonathan's comment, I don't want to spoil anything, but in the next update on the Caribbean, the resolution will be presented.
Thank you all again for the commentary. It's very appreciated.
The next update will be a co-joined one on Guatemala and Mexico, which will be moving closer to the finale of that theater of the Guerra del Indies as well.
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