It's a reasonable guess that the Marajoara were Arawakan. The language family is all through the Amazon - even Santarem could be Arawakan. But I'm not sure how similar the culture will be to the Carribean Arawaks. For one thing, the languages might be as different as English and Swedish, meaning they have to be learnt to communicate and each side is always seen as foreign to the other. For another, it's a different environment that will change the culture. The Caribbean Arawaks didn't have fish farms, for example, but we know the Marajoara did. Come to think of it, the Caribbean Arawak have been fairly drastically changed by the Point of Departure, becoming more like the Carib. That won't have affected the Marajoara, at least not at first.
Giving Doug Muir's "Bronze Age New World" Another Look
- Thread starter Hnau
- Start date
I think I did not make myself too clear, my bad
. While I certainly agree with you, I was refering to an outsider look, as it would be very likely that the Marajoara culture would be severely affected by tloggotl, and maybe extinct together with the *Taino.Also, it should be noted that there should be divergence among the *Taino as well, as we're talking of a thousand years in a culture without writing (at least initially) and dispersed through the whole Caribbean; it should not be a homogeneous society at all, which each region with its own peculiarities. So, the *Taino that would colonize OTL Guyanas and Amapa would actually be a transitional society between the *Marajoara and the *Arawak.
I'm working on two things here:
1) organizing the thoughts about the *Arawak, which I strongly think we should begin to refer with other name, to make things less confusing - I suggest Aracuhaipan or Arapaguan, respectively the heavenly people and the people of the sea, already Spanicized.
2) mapping out the best locations for *Arawak colonization and settlement. In the south from S. Juan River to Amapa, what do you think? The gulf of Darien, La Guajira, the Maracaibo basin, the Paranagua isle and most of OTL Falcón state wouldn't either have the suitable climate or nbot enough people to trade to. The Magdalena river delta, on the other hand, seems like a perfect place for a *Arawak colony on their apex. To the north, I don't have a clue yet, and restricted to the Keys. Where should be some colonies up north?
On a unrelated line of thought: in the *Arawak trading boats, would it be possible to rats travel undercover? If yes, we have to choose our vector for whichever diseases we want to spread, specially tloggotl.
Cheers!
Hi, I'm back! Glad to see you all still working on this.
I think the ideas on the Amazon seem pretty good. It all seems fairly plausible. Considering that tloggotl is meant to appear in the 8th or 9th centuries if I'm not mistaken, I suggest the Amazon be recovering by the 1492, with more complex societies appearing on the banks of the Amazon. Unfortunately, the only other civilization we can really expect them to be interacting with are the Incas and only slightly.
I'm still thinking about the Chumash. It occurred to me that we have a reason for them to go so far as nor th as the Puget Sound (tying into the previous installments), the Salish Wool Dogs. There could be a small but regular trade for the wool (very thick and strong) in return for bronze tools.
I think the ideas on the Amazon seem pretty good. It all seems fairly plausible. Considering that tloggotl is meant to appear in the 8th or 9th centuries if I'm not mistaken, I suggest the Amazon be recovering by the 1492, with more complex societies appearing on the banks of the Amazon. Unfortunately, the only other civilization we can really expect them to be interacting with are the Incas and only slightly.
I'm still thinking about the Chumash. It occurred to me that we have a reason for them to go so far as nor th as the Puget Sound (tying into the previous installments), the Salish Wool Dogs. There could be a small but regular trade for the wool (very thick and strong) in return for bronze tools.
Maybe they could also have contact with those inhabitants of Xingu region, in Mato Grosso, that were forming some kind of urban civilization:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3077413/
http://oblate-spheroid.blogspot.com/2008/08/urban-sprawl-grid-discovered-in-xingu.html
Hnau
Banned
Some notes I made about the Xingu culture.
- Men play flutes which women aren't allowed to see.
- Hereditary diplomat-chiefs rule over tribes.
- Lots of marrying between tribes.
- "Huka-Huka" inter-tribal wrestling contests.
- Collective fishing (What does that entail exactly?)
- Fur taboo.
- Public quarrels and fighting are a serious moral violation, those who do so are given harsh punishments decided by the entire village.
- Adult brothers form an oligarchy in each 'House', consisting of an extended family, rule over the holdings. Husbands move in with their wives and their sisters. In this way, each House is ruled by a council of male in-laws.
- Five-year gender separation period for boys and girls to be taught certain tasks.
- The hammock is popular, along with flutes, canoes, and fish nets. Luxury items.
- Animistic religion, the favorite animal-deity is the Fish.
- Small wooden disks are inserted into pierced lips for men, symbolizes maturity and masculinity.
- Ceremonies involving elaborate body-painting.
It seems the Xingu share a few cultural traits with my invented Beni culture. I like the idea of a fur taboo to add more emphasis on the worship of fish and disdain for other animals. The other "ring-village cultures" as Mann titles them are probably share even more cultural similarities with the Xingu.
Good links Gonzaga.
I like that very much. Can the wool dogs themselves be exported southwards? I've never heard of them before.
When does tloggotl break out. It seems funny in the original BANW that it only really wreaked havoc during the Aracuhaipan collapse... shouldn't at least very mild outbreaks have occurred before then? Also, are we keeping the collapse dated to 1270? I've established that deforestation could become a problem at any time, from 1100 on, and that by the 900s there are no more easy island-frontiers to expand the population into, so the civilization could go Malthusian any time after that.
- Men play flutes which women aren't allowed to see.
- Hereditary diplomat-chiefs rule over tribes.
- Lots of marrying between tribes.
- "Huka-Huka" inter-tribal wrestling contests.
- Collective fishing (What does that entail exactly?)
- Fur taboo.
- Public quarrels and fighting are a serious moral violation, those who do so are given harsh punishments decided by the entire village.
- Adult brothers form an oligarchy in each 'House', consisting of an extended family, rule over the holdings. Husbands move in with their wives and their sisters. In this way, each House is ruled by a council of male in-laws.
- Five-year gender separation period for boys and girls to be taught certain tasks.
- The hammock is popular, along with flutes, canoes, and fish nets. Luxury items.
- Animistic religion, the favorite animal-deity is the Fish.
- Small wooden disks are inserted into pierced lips for men, symbolizes maturity and masculinity.
- Ceremonies involving elaborate body-painting.
It seems the Xingu share a few cultural traits with my invented Beni culture. I like the idea of a fur taboo to add more emphasis on the worship of fish and disdain for other animals. The other "ring-village cultures" as Mann titles them are probably share even more cultural similarities with the Xingu.
Good links Gonzaga.
Atom said:
I like that very much. Can the wool dogs themselves be exported southwards? I've never heard of them before.
When does tloggotl break out. It seems funny in the original BANW that it only really wreaked havoc during the Aracuhaipan collapse... shouldn't at least very mild outbreaks have occurred before then? Also, are we keeping the collapse dated to 1270? I've established that deforestation could become a problem at any time, from 1100 on, and that by the 900s there are no more easy island-frontiers to expand the population into, so the civilization could go Malthusian any time after that.
The wool dogs might be able to be imported southwards.... The real problem is that they need to be kept very very separated from the main population of dogs to ensure a pure white color.
I suggest it be spread by the Aracuhaipan circa 1000 CE across the Caribean/Gulf of Mexico. That'll give it time to penetrate all the way to the Southeast, which is already canon.
I've found some more details on the Tapajos Indians, the ones living around what's now Santarem. This is from Amazonia: Man and Culture in a Counterfeit Paradise by Betty Meggers. There's been some controversy over Meggers' work but what follows is mostly quotes from older sources so it should be kosher. Anyway:
The language family the Tapajos speak is unknown, except we know it isn't Tupian.
Villages were 20-30 people in size, towns could be 300-700, and the capital could supply 60,000 warriors. Except for fishing stations they are all above the flood level and mostly on hilltops. They include wells for drinking water.
The only clothing is ceremonial robes made from cotton and feathers.
They cultivate maize, manioc, and fruits, and also gather wild rice.
The Tapajos make high-quality pottery which they trade to other groups along with rice wine.
They practice polygyny and drown adulturous wives in the river.
Each village has a chief, and there's a high chief who's said to be strictly obeyed. Chiefs are chosen by ability rather than heredity. Warfare is common, with large numbers of warriors using lethal poisoned arrows. Slavery is known but less common than in some other groups.
After death, the body is wrapped in a hammock and left to rot. Then the bones are pulverised, mixed with wine and drunk. There's no other kind of cannibalism.
Painted idols and the bodies of dead chiefs are worshipped, and one-tenth of the maize crop is donated to the shrines, where it's made into wine for the festivals. There are also specialist priests who read omens.
That seems like plenty to work with.
The language family the Tapajos speak is unknown, except we know it isn't Tupian.
Villages were 20-30 people in size, towns could be 300-700, and the capital could supply 60,000 warriors. Except for fishing stations they are all above the flood level and mostly on hilltops. They include wells for drinking water.
The only clothing is ceremonial robes made from cotton and feathers.
They cultivate maize, manioc, and fruits, and also gather wild rice.
The Tapajos make high-quality pottery which they trade to other groups along with rice wine.
They practice polygyny and drown adulturous wives in the river.
Each village has a chief, and there's a high chief who's said to be strictly obeyed. Chiefs are chosen by ability rather than heredity. Warfare is common, with large numbers of warriors using lethal poisoned arrows. Slavery is known but less common than in some other groups.
After death, the body is wrapped in a hammock and left to rot. Then the bones are pulverised, mixed with wine and drunk. There's no other kind of cannibalism.
Painted idols and the bodies of dead chiefs are worshipped, and one-tenth of the maize crop is donated to the shrines, where it's made into wine for the festivals. There are also specialist priests who read omens.
That seems like plenty to work with.