Germany's 1914 Eastern Plan?

[Riain]

I've heard many claims that Germany had a plan to go into Russia rather than France in 1914 and they could and even should have done it.

Does anyone have any details on what it was? What forces were attached to this eastern plan, what were the jumping off points and what were their initial objectives?

 

[BobTheBarbarian]

I don't recall the Germans ever having seriously considered such a thing. Their original Schlieffen Plan called for 90% of the land army to crash through France and the Low Countries, hopefully knocking them out of the war in time for a pivot east to focus on Russia. In the intervening time those forces in Prussia and eastern Germany would have assumed a defensive stance in the hopes that France could be defeated before Russia totally mobilized.

 

[Riain]

Granted it wasn't even close to being a favourite option, but there must have been a plan somewhere in 1914 that had armies mobilised in the direction of Russia rather than France.

It's not that hard to imagine that 1st and 2nd Armies would be deployed against Russia, those IOTL were dedicated to offensive action on the Right wing in Belgium. But what about 3rd Army, would it be deployed east as well leaving the defnece of the western fronteir to 4 armies? What about the seige train that IOTL attacked Leige and Antwerp, would that go east or would that stay in the west and be used defensively?

 

[NoMommsen]

I don't recall the Germans ever having seriously considered such a thing.

Simply wrong. Schlieffen himself came - in a way - back - to ideas of Moltke the elder in 1903 (Generalstabsreise Ost 1903 General staf journey, thats how they called and made kind of manovering tests on plans).

Their original Schlieffen Plan called for 90% of the land army to crash through France and the Low Countries, hopefully knocking them out of the war in time for a pivot east to focus on Russia. In the intervening time those forces in Prussia and eastern Germany would have assumed a defensive stance in the hopes that France could be defeated before Russia totally mobilized.

just to remind : the "schlieffen-plan" was originally a paper on overall strategic possibilities, that ofc included the idea of first beating Russia and then France.

What most people call the "Schlieffen-Plan" was (just) the one variant that came into practice and was favored by Moltke the younger.

Unfortunatly, the materials of the "East-first"-varaint of Moltke the Elder, his successopr, Waldersee and was still considered up tp 1913, when Moltke the Younger decided for the "West-variant", that have been archived were after that decision and due to later courses of war (WW II) scrapped and lost.

There is just almost nothing of these plans and papers left.

However, what is known of these plans, mainly from the Waldersee-time, called for an approximatly 1/3 of troop in the east, taking on Russia together with A-H and 2/3 in the west on defense against France.

Schlieffen put up a variant of 1/2 in the east and 1/2 in west in about 1903/1904. The "last" variant of the Schlieffen-plan (stratetic) include an "Aufmarsch West I", an "Aufmarsch West II", an "Aufmarsch East I" and an "Aufmarsch East II" dealing with different possible political alignments.
But as said earlier in 1913 Moltke the younger scrapped all east-plan for leaving only the west-variants and tried to "optimize" them.

(main reference : the german wiki-site on the Schlieffen-plan)

 

[Riain]

Interesting that you use the word 'scrapped' to describe the east plan from 1913. I assume that to mean that the plan was not updated in 1913 and 1914, which might not sound that important but it was in those years that the German army expanded by 135,000 men, the first exapnsion in years, a decade even. So in effect there was no plan to deploy the German army as it stood in 1914 on a mobilisation-offensive against Russia, only a plan to deploy the army of 1912 on the infrastructure of 1912 on a mobilisation-offensive against Russia. That doesn't really cut it for a plan.

 

[NoMommsen]

Interesting that you use the word 'scrapped' to describe the east plan from 1913. I assume that to mean that the plan was not updated in 1913 and 1914, which might not sound that important but it was in those years that the German army expanded by 135,000 men, the first exapnsion in years, a decade even. So in effect there was no plan to deploy the German army as it stood in 1914 on a mobilisation-offensive against Russia, only a plan to deploy the army of 1912 on the infrastructure of 1912 on a mobilisation-offensive against Russia. That doesn't really cut it for a plan.

That's right.
Sry I'm no "natural" english ... couldn't find a better word.

ASAIK it was 'updated' as a mind exercise 1912/1913 the last time. It was the tradition of the german army - as well as the navy - to do such purely intellectual "winter-exerces" and "winter-homeworks" - the homeworks for the lower echolons, the exercises for the general staff.

But at that time Moltke was already most in favor for the west-plan in thinking :
1st : the russians need at least 6 weeks for mobilization
2nd: after japanes-russian war the abilities of the russian army were rendered ... VEERY low
3rd : the french are faster than that but also quicker to beat (much shorter distances)

From 1913 these exercises and homeworks were put somewhere deep down to the archives and these parts - as it seems - get lost in the following times. ... Unfortunatly for us.


But for 1914 : I still think and assume that there must have been some kind of planning, though not in detail but some ... "rough"(?) lines, on how to move the whole army after the hoped for quick victory eastwards.

The general ideas - at least during the Waldersee times - were something similar to what the Wehrmacht did in 1939 :
(together with A-H) a big pincer cut off the polish teritories and entrapp and beat the russian forces there. There weresome thoughts of perhaps also encircling russian troop in the baltic region around Riga. And after beating off the western russian army the Tsar would/should come to terms of surrender.

There were never any thoughts on repeating the desastrous Napoleon stunt : trying to reach Moscow or anywhere east of Minsk.

 

[rast]

The German plan for 1914/15 was to deploy one army in the east, the 8th. Should the Russians, however, not have attacked, this army might have been switched to the offensive - in co-operation with the AuH armies.

The maximum deployment east in Schlieffen's and Moltke's times was four armies. However, only three armies could be deployed simultaneously, army number four would have to be brought in belatedly.

Obsolete plans were not kept but destroyed. To avoid confusion, only the valid plan was in the vaults. Thus, in 1914, they had the mobilisation and deployment plan 1914/15, valid since April 1st, 1914.

 

[NoMommsen]

Obsolete plans were not kept but destroyed. To avoid confusion, only the valid plan was in the vaults. Thus, in 1914, the had the mobilisation and deployment plan 1914/15, valid since April 1st, 1914.

Not completly true : what was destroyed were actual 'ordering' plans or orders, meant to be issued to the troop commanders in case. (just too much paper to store). These exercises and homeworks of the general staff were stored (otherwise we wouldn't know anything of the development of i.e. the "Sichelschnitt"-plan of 1939/40).

 

[Riain]

Thanks for the replies. The picture I'm getting is that no proper plan, which I assume includes unit orders, railway timetables and the likes, was drawn up after 1912-13 but a bit of a halfarse update was done by line officers but not the General Staff. At most the Germans would deploy 4 Armies to the East, but only 3 would be in the first wave, I don't understand why that would be given the huge spaces available in the east. I also don't know where these armies would detrain from and what their objectives would be although presumably there would be at least one army in East Prussia where IOTL 8th Army was.

 

[rast]

All three - and eventually four - would have been in East Prussia.

 

[Riain]

All three - and eventually four - would have been in East Prussia.

Really? What about the rest of the frontier? What would these 3 armies objectives be, the Baltics and Poland?

 

[NoMommsen]

The "rest" of the border, Pozsnan and Silesia, were to be hold by secondary units called "Landwehr", formed by soldiers - or now civilists - after their reservist time has ended, almost purely defensive.

Why all in East- and maybe also West-Prussia :
see what happend in 1939 , as A-H was also considered a participant.

One german pincer from north going south east of Warszaw, one pincer going north from Galicia, both meeting somewhere west of Brest-Litowsk. By then - hopefully - having encircled and crushed what was there of russian troops.
Maybe "helped" by an additional thrust through the baltic to Riga and further on, Lake Peipus, if successfull even further with the "high price" ... St. Peterburg .
But that were - if ever - very, vey distant goals ... or dreams.

For the 3 armies variant :
1 defending east of Königsberg, with possible offensive action in the direction of Riga, trying to encirle russian troops with their back to the sea
2 and 3 south-southeastwards trying to catch every russian army that might be there (envision something a bit bigger as the Tannenberg-battle went).

 

[Glenn239]

Interesting that you use the word 'scrapped' to describe the east plan from 1913. I assume that to mean that the plan was not updated in 1913 and 1914, which might not sound that important but it was in those years that the German army expanded by 135,000 men, the first exapnsion in years, a decade even. So in effect there was no plan to deploy the German army as it stood in 1914 on a mobilisation-offensive against Russia, only a plan to deploy the army of 1912 on the infrastructure of 1912 on a mobilisation-offensive against Russia. That doesn't really cut it for a plan.

Right, after 1912 the eastern plan was not updated so the copy was based on old OOB and infrastructure. As this was probably over 95% the same as in 1912, it would do for about 95% of a plan.

General impression is the plan was to send 4 armies to the east with the immediate objective of taking Warsaw. Moltke didn't consider Poland as valuable as a shot to take France out of the war, so it always seemed a poorer sister to the western option. It was only after the failure of the Schlieffen Plan and the odium of invading Belgium became clear that the eastern offensive started to look like a good bet.

 

[Riain]

That's what I would have thought 3 armies out of East Prussia would do. IOTL Russia planned to mobilise 27 divisions in 15 days and invade East Prussia, 52 divisions in 23 days and all 90 divisions in 60 days, Germany would be ready to rock and roll in 2 weeks so about the same time as Russia has the 27 divisions ready.

If it was looking like Germany was going to head east I imagine Russia would defend for a week with its 27 divisions that IOTL invaded East Prussia and if given the chance move onto the offensive once the 52 divisions were ready. I think waiting 60 days would be too long, Germany might be 100 miles across the border with 3 armies in 23 days, who knows how fay they'd get in 60 days.

 

[rast]

This is from the 1912 eastern deployment. You'll need a map with the old German names to understand it.

1st to 4th army will deploy behind fortified lake line northwest of Bischofstein - Rössel.
2nd army: deploys in line Ortelsburg - Rhein for advance on Lomza, Wizna and Osowiec.
1st army: deploys in line Mlawa - Willenberg for advance on Narew between Pultusk and Ostrolenka.
3rd army: deploys in line Lötzen - Angerburg - Darkehmen for advance on Augustow - Wisztymiec.
4th army: deploys in line Insterburg - Ragnit for advance on southern Njemen behind 3rd army.

 

[Zheng He]

For whatever it is worth:

http://www.amazon.com/Grey-Tide-Eas...qid=1460207575&sr=8-1&keywords=grey+tide+east

 

[NoMommsen]

This is from the 1912 eastern deployment. You'll need a map with the old German names to understand it.

1st to 4th army will deploy behind fortified lake line northwest of Bischofstein - Rössel.
2nd army: deploys in line Ortelsburg - Rhein for advance on Lomza, Wizna and Osowiec.
1st army: deploys in line Mlawa - Willenberg for advance on Narew between Pultusk and Ostrolenka.
3rd army: deploys in line Lötzen - Angerburg - Darkehmen for advance on Augustow - Wisztymiec.
4th army: deploys in line Insterburg - Ragnit for advance on southern Njemen behind 3rd army.

Cool !

Where from do you have this info ?

 

[rast]

Where from do you have this info ?

Der Schlieffenplan - Analyse und Dokumente, ISBN 978-3506756299. The discussion is what you've come to expect from the MGFA, but as annex they've put in the material (recovered by the Russians in 1945) that the Forschungsanstalt für Kriegs- und Heeresgeschichte had collected regarding German mobilisation and initial deployment planning.

 

[Glenn239]

If it was looking like Germany was going to head east I imagine Russia would defend for a week with its 27 divisions that IOTL invaded East Prussia and if given the chance move onto the offensive once the 52 divisions were ready. I think waiting 60 days would be too long, Germany might be 100 miles across the border with 3 armies in 23 days, who knows how fay they'd get in 60 days.

Moltke concluded the Russians would fall back and the Central Powers (about 85 Austrian and German divisions) would hit air.

 

[BobTheBarbarian]

Schlieffen put up a variant of 1/2 in the east and 1/2 in west in about 1903/1904. The "last" variant of the Schlieffen-plan (stratetic) include an "Aufmarsch West I", an "Aufmarsch West II", an "Aufmarsch East I" and an "Aufmarsch East II" dealing with different possible political alignments.
But as said earlier in 1913 Moltke the younger scrapped all east-plan for leaving only the west-variants and tried to "optimize" them.

(main reference : the german wiki-site on the Schlieffen-plan)

Interesting. I had never heard of this before, will have to check it out.