FW 187 instead of BF110

[zoomar]

As I understand things, the claim is being made that the Fw-187, armed with DB-610 engines, would have been a potentially great plane. Maybe. Maybe not. We have no way of knowing if the Fw-187 could have been adapted to the much heavier and more powerful engine. The history of aviation is filled with planes that got worse when they were up-engined.

The Fw-187 was a relatively light fighter, designed as a single-seater, with a very small and narrow fuselage. As such, it could, perhaps, have evolved into a plane equivalent to the P-38, but there is no hard and fast evidence this would have happened. I agree with the poster who suggests the Falke is better compared to the Grumman F5F than the Lightning - a late 1930's concept that had to be completely redesigned before a useful fighter (the F7F) resulted. At that point put your eggs into the Ta-154 basket and fix the damn glue. The Falke would have been poorly suited as a night fighter, even with the a radio/radar operator squeezed in. It was also very lightly armed as designed. Hard to imagine the sleek Fw-187 carrying a battery of cannon and MGs equivalent to the Bf-110 without these being in underfuselage packs that would affect performance.

Bottom line, I have no problem with folks speculating that the Falke might have been a really useful plane for the Luftwaffe in 1940-43, but there is no reason to presume this would be the case.

 

[Bill Garvin]

As I understand things, the claim is being made that the Fw-187, armed with DB-610 engines, would have been a potentially great plane. Maybe. Maybe not. We have no way of knowing if the Fw-187 could have been adapted to the much heavier and more powerful engine. The history of aviation is filled with planes that got worse when they were up-engined.

The Fw-187 was a relatively light fighter, designed as a single-seater, with a very small and narrow fuselage. As such, it could, perhaps, have evolved into a plane equivalent to the P-38, but there is no hard and fast evidence this would have happened. I agree with the poster who suggests the Falke is better compared to the Grumman F5F than the Lightning - a late 1930's concept that had to be completely redesigned before a useful fighter (the F7F) resulted. At that point put your eggs into the Ta-154 basket and fix the damn glue. The Falke would have been poorly suited as a night fighter, even with the a radio/radar operator squeezed in. It was also very lightly armed as designed. Hard to imagine the sleek Fw-187 carrying a battery of cannon and MGs equivalent to the Bf-110 without these being in underfuselage packs that would affect performance.

Bottom line, I have no problem with folks speculating that the Falke might have been a really useful plane for the Luftwaffe in 1940-43, but there is no reason to presume this would be the case.

Well Said!!

 

[Just Leo]

As I understand things, the claim is being made that the Fw-187, armed with DB-610 engines, would have been a potentially great plane. Maybe. Maybe not. We have no way of knowing if the Fw-187 could have been adapted to the much heavier and more powerful engine. The history of aviation is filled with planes that got worse when they were up-engined.

The Fw-187 was a relatively light fighter, designed as a single-seater, with a very small and narrow fuselage. As such, it could, perhaps, have evolved into a plane equivalent to the P-38, but there is no hard and fast evidence this would have happened. I agree with the poster who suggests the Falke is better compared to the Grumman F5F than the Lightning - a late 1930's concept that had to be completely redesigned before a useful fighter (the F7F) resulted. At that point put your eggs into the Ta-154 basket and fix the damn glue. The Falke would have been poorly suited as a night fighter, even with the a radio/radar operator squeezed in. It was also very lightly armed as designed. Hard to imagine the sleek Fw-187 carrying a battery of cannon and MGs equivalent to the Bf-110 without these being in underfuselage packs that would affect performance.

Bottom line, I have no problem with folks speculating that the Falke might have been a really useful plane for the Luftwaffe in 1940-43, but there is no reason to presume this would be the case.

Since the DB610 is 2 coupled DB605s, I highly doubt they would fit at all. The DB601 is a direct injection variant of the DB-600 which was fitted and flew in the V6, with 175 more hp.

The F7F wasn't that useful, taking up too much deck space, and being post war.

 

[Detlef]

The Fw187 was a totally diferent bird. Kurt Tank did the math, and realised that a single engined fighter would be lacking in range, and tried to build a long range fighter with two engines that would have the hability to dice with single engined types. Since nobody in the LW (and let's face it, nowere) antecipated the need for escort fighters, the LW could not understand the concept and tried to alter it to fit its destroyer role, a task for wich the Fw187 had not been design. So when we talk of the the LW replacing the Bf110 with the Fw187, we are really talking of the LW abandoning the premature multirole aircraft concept and embracing the long range interceptor/escort fighter concept, something the USAF and the IJN/IJAAF had done out of necessity (the Pacific demanding great range) not out of inovative tactical thinking. The only way to get that range with 1939/40 engines was by a lightweight fighter (the Zero aproach) or a twin engined one. (The P38/Fw187 aproach).
Since the LW was in essence a tactical AirForce (like the later VVS) to give it the Fw187 in its design form we need a different LW (one with long range quad engined bombers as well)

You might be able to get a bit closer to that "different LW" with Wever surviving the airplane crash?
On page 1 of this thread it was mentioned that he opposed the Bf110. On the other hand he asked for the development of an "Ural bomber / Bomber A". Assuming he is successful with his ideas then we might see a limited number of "long range quad engined bombers". (Maybe without that insane dive bombing requirement?)
A long range escort fighter then would make sense?

 

[Deleted member 1487]

As I understand things, the claim is being made that the Fw-187, armed with DB-610 engines, would have been a potentially great plane. Maybe. Maybe not. We have no way of knowing if the Fw-187 could have been adapted to the much heavier and more powerful engine. The history of aviation is filled with planes that got worse when they were up-engined.

The Fw-187 was a relatively light fighter, designed as a single-seater, with a very small and narrow fuselage. As such, it could, perhaps, have evolved into a plane equivalent to the P-38, but there is no hard and fast evidence this would have happened. I agree with the poster who suggests the Falke is better compared to the Grumman F5F than the Lightning - a late 1930's concept that had to be completely redesigned before a useful fighter (the F7F) resulted. At that point put your eggs into the Ta-154 basket and fix the damn glue. The Falke would have been poorly suited as a night fighter, even with the a radio/radar operator squeezed in. It was also very lightly armed as designed. Hard to imagine the sleek Fw-187 carrying a battery of cannon and MGs equivalent to the Bf-110 without these being in underfuselage packs that would affect performance.

Bottom line, I have no problem with folks speculating that the Falke might have been a really useful plane for the Luftwaffe in 1940-43, but there is no reason to presume this would be the case.

The FW187 was tested with DB600 engines, which were only 60 lbs less than the DB601 engines. That's not a large increase in weight, nor were the dimensions very different either.

And I never said that it would be a good nightfighter either. But remember that the Germans didn't have an airborne interception radar until 1942 and only in small numbers when it was replaced by the Ju88G and He129.
So the Falke could operate as a nightfighter without a radar, just as the Bf110 did IOTL until 1942-3. In fact there is no reason it would be any less effective in that role before AIR, as the rear gunner/radio man in the BF110 couldn't spot bombers in front of the airplane where it mattered.

Also the FW187 had the same armament of the 1939-42 BF110. The only difference was the rear mounted defensive gun:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Fw_187

Armament
4 × 7.92 mm (.312 in) MG 17 machine guns in fuselage sides
2 × 20 mm MG FF cannon in lower fuselage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_110

Armament
Guns:
2 × 20 mm MG FF/M cannons (180 rpg - 3 drums with 60 rpg, cannon were reloaded by rear gunner or radio operator during flight)
4 × 7.92 mm (.312 in) MG 17 machine guns (1,000 rpg)
1 × 7.92 mm (.312 in) MG 15 machine guns for defense

 

[Catspoke]

If this avoids the whole ME 210 screw up its worth it on just that alone, there will be much more of these produced in 41-42 than ME 110s in OTL. Losing the 110 as a Jabo in 41-42 isn't a big deal since there just wasn't many of them.

You also don't have to have rear gunners so there is some flight capable personel available to train as pilots for the extra craft (I wonder what different requirements gunners vs pilots had as raw recruits, vision reaction time, had to be an officer etc...).

 

[Deleted member 1487]

If this avoids the whole ME 210 screw up its worth it on just that alone, there will be much more of these produced in 41-42 than ME 110s in OTL. Losing the 110 as a Jabo in 41-42 isn't a big deal since there just wasn't many of them.

You also don't have to have rear gunners so there is some flight capable personel available to train as pilots for the extra craft (I wonder what different requirements gunners vs pilots had as raw recruits, vision reaction time, had to be an officer etc...).

IIRC its conservatively estimated about 2000 aircraft were lost during the ME210 fiasco, from those that had to be scrapped and production time/personnel wasted. Tooling for the ME210 started in 1939 and the project wasn't cancelled until 1942!

 

[Just Leo]

110 prototype and pre-production examples, 90 German production examples, 320 partially built in storage, and 267 Hungarian-built.

 

[Guilherme Loureiro]

110 prototype and pre-production examples, 90 German production examples, 320 partially built in storage, and 267 Hungarian-built.

The Hungarian-built Me-210 wasn't quite the same as its German predecessor; the Hungarians did manage to fix the Me-210, mainly by lengthening it enough to fix the handling problems, and a lot of it got copied in the Me-410.

 

[Just Leo]

During WWI, the Fokker D-VII was being evaluated for service and was about to fail. Antony borrowed the test aircraft for a week-end and welded in an extra bay in the rear fuselage, to improve stability. History was made. Life was so much simpler then.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I recently came across an interesting post that I think would add to this thread:
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/superior-german-fighter-37322-3.html

I would really like to see the figures that will convincingly show that the Fw-187 would have done all of these things, particularly the climbing and diving: I have Hermann and Petrick's book on the Fw 187 and all I see are lots of projected performance figures for planned Fw 187 derivatives when fitted with various engine types, including the DB605. There is no mention anywhere of the confirmed or projected diving speeds so I cannot see how such claims can be confirmed.

Fw 187 V4 rate of climb = 12.1 m/sec = 2,381 ft/min, gross weight = 4,900 kg: projected Fw 187 with DB605 = 13 m/sec = 2,559 ft/min, gross weight = 8,200 kg.
There was only one Fw 187, the V5, tested with DB601s using evaporative cooling; the only performance figure quoted is 635 km/h (394 mph) "at low altitude", with the engines developing 1,350 hp - there is no indication whether this was with armament or at full loaded weight. It is doubtful whether the RLM would have continued with evaporative cooled DB601s because the system was far too vulnerable to battle damage, not to mention the nightmares of maintenance at a unit level, and supply issues involved in manufacturing and issuing yet another version of the DB601 when there were already problems involved in manufacturing and supplying the standard models. Another problem was that supplies of C3 96 Octane fuel were always problematic and unreliable.

If you have this book and has read it accurate (and the book is accurate translated) I can't understand your claims here, because they are simply wrong!

1. The climb rate you are claiming is with a 1000kg Bomb at external racks, without the 1000kg Bomb it was 18,0m/s; Page 135
2. The FW 187 V5 didn't receive DB 601 H engines, it was flying with the DB 601 V40 + V42 with 1100PS; Page 78
3. The FW 187 V5 didn't flew with an evaporative cooling (Oberflächenverdampfungskühlung), it flew with a Dampfheißkühlung. This system is fundemental different to the He 100 evaporative cooling, where water was circulating through the wings. The system of the FW 187 was an experimental high pressure cooling with very smal convential radiators (no water at the wings)and every later developed engine from DB 605, Jumo 213 and DB 603 received a steam seperator for high pressure cooling. Page 73-78
4. Look at page 81/82 you can see the radiators under the engine.
5. Also there are several reports from pilots about the flight performance of the FW 187 at Rechlin (Page 37) and at Page 95 against a Me 110 with DB 601 engines at Denmark.

I see DonL is going to design a new twin from the Fw 187, with heavier engines, never built, and state that it would not be outclassed by anything, despite that fact that, except for the Mosquito and P-38, there were very few successful day twin fighters. I'd say there might be some interesting development ahead.

I haven't anything designed Mr. GregP the FW 187 was built with DB 601 engines ( FW 187 V5) and the FW 187 was constructed from the scratch to the DB engines, because this was the advertisement of the RLM
The FW 187 V5 flew from 1939 till 1942 and FW was able to receive countless of flight data's and the FW 187 V5 had not a single problem with the g-limit

And the P-38 was faster than the proposed Fw 187 might have been with the proposed DB 601's. The P-38 and some Mosquitoes were at least over 400 mph. The DB engined FW 187 would not have been by a good margin, if you look at power increase alone. Add some frontal area increase and it get slower. You could not substitute a 34% heavier engine with more power without encountering a bigger radiator and the atendant cooling drag increase, not to mention the heavier engine mounts and attendant strengthening of the airframe to support the heavier engines at the g-limit. My estimate with standa aedodynamic equations would have it in the 380 - 385 mph range with the DB 601's. Good, probably. But the best? Maybe.

Mr. Greg P you has realy no clue about what you are writing!

1. The FW 187 was designed to support the heavier engines from the beginning, no modifications are necessary.
2, The change from Jumo 210 engies to DB 601 engines had reduced the drag of the ME 110 significant through much better radiators and resulted in a speed increase of 85km/h with bigger engines.. The FW 187 A0 flew the same radiotors and engines as the Bf 110 B with Jumo 210 engines.
So what do you think would be the speed increase of the FW 187 with the change to the DB 601 engines, if the Bf 110 could increase it's speed about 85 km/h and the FW 187 had the better aerodynamic?

To show you the aerodynamic category of the FW 187 from hard clocked facts/datas, we can compare the FW 187 V1 and the FW 187 V4.


FW 187 V1 single seater

loaded weight: 3.850 kg
Wingspan: 30,00 m²
Wing loading: 128,33 kg/m²
engines: Jumo 210D 2x680 PS
Top speedt 501 kmh at 3.000 m
climb: 17,5 m/s

FW 187 V4 two seater

loaded weight: 4.900 kg
Wingspan: 30,20 m²
Wing loading:165,56 kg/m²
engines: Jumo 210G 2x730 PS
Top speedt 545 kmh at 4.600 m
climb: 12,5 m/s

The main difference were the engines, because the 210G had a two speed supercharger, fuel injection and was the first Jumo 210 with boost effect.
As you can see the FW 187 V4 was 1000kg heavier then the Fw 187 V1, but could increase it's top speed through the better supercharger and boost effect from 500 to 540 km/h.

This is the official specification from FW engineers of the FW 187 with DB 605 engines:

Official specification:

Fw 187 - destroyer/nightfighter from 1942

Wingspan: 15,3
Wing area: 30 qm
Length: 12,45
crew: 2 (200 kg)
empty weight: 5600 kg
take off weight: 8200 kg (with 1 x 1000 kg Bombe)
engine: DB 605
estimated range with internal fuel: 1200 km
estimated range with internal fuel and 900 Liter drop tank: 2100km

Performance:
682 kmh at 7.000m altitude (at 6.620 kg), 658 kmh at 7.000 m with 1000 kg bomb capacity at external racks
547 kmh (at 6.620 kg)at SL
climb rate at SL: 13,0 m/s at 8.200kg (with 1000kg bomg capacity) , 18,0 m/s bei 6.620 kg
climb: 6000m in 5,7 Minuten (with 6.620 kg),
armament:
4 x 151 / 20 with 250 bullets each - fixed to the front
2 x 131 with 450 bullets each - as "Schräge Musik"
1 x MG 81 with 750 bullets - flexible to the back
in summaryt: weapons 392 kg; munition 306 kg)
loading:
maximal 2.000 kg
1 x 1000 kg + 2 x 500 kg or
1 x 1000 kg + 4 x 250 kg or
10 x 50 kg bzw. 10 x AB 23 / 24

With what arguments do you claim that this datas are wrong and a Moussie and a P38 would be faster?
With what arguments do you claim that FW engineers, educated piston engine aircraft engineers are wrong with their official specification, with countless datas of testflights of the FW 187 A0 and FW 187 V5 with DB 601 engines.
From engineers that presented official specifications for the FW 190 A0- A9, FW 190-D9-13, Ta 152 H, FW 200 etc and all this official specification were reached in real-life from production a/c's.

Where is your argument that engineers who worked about 5 years with this a/c can't do a proper official specification but you know it better?
Are you a piston engine aircraft engineer?

So it looks like this aircraft would have been able to top the Spitfire by at least 25mph with the engines that the Bf110 had been given as of the BoB. It would have also exceeded the Spitfire in range by 2.5 times, as well as had a better dive and climb rate, had it stuck to its original single seat design. Plus it would have had a significantly higher economical cruise speed than its main opponent, the Spitfire; the Hurricane would have been toast in comparison.

I can't find any reference that says the Fw 187 V5 was ever equipped with other than Jumo 210 engines. Maybe the paper follow-on planes were calculated with DB 601, DB 603 or DB 605 engines, but can anyone post a reference that shows an actualy flying Fw 187 was so equipped? I can find only the Fw 187 V6 that had DB's and it had the carbureted DB 600A's, not DB 601's. It also had a surface evaporative cooling system that gave a lot of trouble.

I believe the three 2-seat Fw 187's were used as factory test beds, but have never found out the details of the tests or the changes made to them before they were taken out of service, other than that in the winter of 42/43 they were used to study the potential use of the Fw 187 as a night fighter. That does not imply engine changes.

The subject hasn't exactly been completely documented in the books I have read, so maybe there are some data out there showing such. The planes LOOK good and seemed to perform at a good level, but seem to have been killed both by politics and by lack of defensive armament in being selected for the Destroyer role.

The complete history of this a/c is in this book:
http://www.amazon.de/Focke-Wulf-FW-187-Illustrated-History/dp/0764318713


The book is basing on original documents from Focker Wulf.
At this book are official original specifications from Focker Wulf engineers with layout drawings for the FW 187 V4/A0 and the FW 187 as nightfighter/destroyer (1942) and as high altitude single seater fighter (1942). Also there are many photos at this book, also from the FW 187 V5 with DB 601 engines, that showed the small radiators of the FW 187 V5, which was not flying with a surface evaporative cooling system.

Here are several members at this forum with this book and I hope they will confirm my informations.

I think this is the German version of the book:
http://www.amazon.de/Focke-Wulf-187...ie=UTF8&qid=1370292962&sr=8-1&keywords=fw+187

 

[phx1138]

it would be a sublime "Boom and Zoom" aircraft

Which makes me wonder if this doesn't demand P-38s as escorts from the very start. At a very minimum, push the need for escorts higher on the agenda.

I would have been in favor of the Falke, but I wasn't in charge. Neither was Wolfie. I would also have favored development of the He-100, but nobody asked me.

+1.

Isn't the world a better place because neither of us was a Luftwaffe general in 1936, tho?

if sealion wasn't going to happen then there was no point to [the daylight penetration raids] in the first place as the LW could never generate the necessary sorties to subdue britain's entire war effort

I would disagree with the fundamental premise there. Raids of this kind need not "subdue" as much as "divert", & they'd have paid enormous dividends if applied against Coastal Command bases. Even against Bomber Command, they'd have been very useful, if not decisive. The need to improve defenses, reallocate resources, fortify, add home defense fighters--not to mention replace losses--were all to Germany's good.

 

[Just Leo]

Isn't the world a better place because neither of us was a Luftwaffe general in 1936, tho?

I'm an inveterate salaryman and cannot accept a commission.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Which makes me wonder if this doesn't demand P-38s as escorts from the very start. At a very minimum, push the need for escorts higher on the agenda.

For the US? Not sure why this would be an issue more than OTL when unescorted bomber losses were too savage as it was. The P-38 was pretty badly misused over Europe as it was, so I don't think the Falke changes a thing. What it does change is how the BoB is carried out, though I'm not sure whether it would change the outcome. It wouldn't hurt though, as the LW would be innovating similar tactics to what the US eventually used to decimate the LW in 1944: linger over airfields as the RAF is taking off and landing thanks to the Fw187 having triple the range of the Me109. The RAF didn't scramble to deal with fighter sweeps alone, so preceding a bomber attack with FW187s crossing the Channel and waiting over RAF fighter bases would be a successful tactic. Also have waves, so there are always some lingering over fighter command airfields during a bomber raid (used as bait to draw out Fighter Command), which the Fw187 could handle, as the Spitfire had far less range than the Fw187 and would burn it up tangling with Me109 bomber escorts or chasing Fw187s.

Also the He100 would have been a total waste.