Fate of Italy, Germany without the French revolution

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by some kind of chimp, May 24, 2009.

  1. some kind of chimp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2008
    Exactly what it says on the tin. Say the French Revolution is averted by handwaving (economic reform, no aid in the Revolutionary war, take your pick). So what would the 19th century look like, particularly for Italy and Germany. Without first the trauma of French conquest, and more importantly the resulting nationalism, how would those countries have developed.

    Would Italy and Germany have united eventually, or would both have remained divided?
     
  2. MRig They say in Harlan County...

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2008
    Location:
    East Jersey Province, State of New York
    I don't remember which, but there's a book out there about modern German history that begins with the sentence, "In the beginning, there was Napoleon." If we see something like nationalism, which we probably will sooner or later, it will have a remarkably different character than it did in OTL. When Prussia bests Austria, which is probably unavoidable by the start of the 19th century, we might see something like the German Empire that makes no claims to being German. In this case we may see them leave Alsace-Lorraine alone but grab some territories the Kaiserreich didn't have IOTL. It's also possible that Prussia will revive the HRE, which may still be around if Napoleon hasn't dealt it its deathblow.

    I don't know enough about Italy to speculate very well, but perhaps the Hapsburgs will turn to the Peninsula when Prussia knocks them out of the Germanies.

    On the other hand we may just see a bigger, badder revolution happen a few decades later. France, as usual, is the best candidate. In this case what happens in Germany and Italy would depend heavily on the political developments between the OTL revolution that didn't happen, and the new revolution that did.
     
  3. DuQuense Commisioned Officer CSN

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2004
    Location:
    Florida ,CSA
    Without the French Revolution ?Do Whe still get the 1848 Revolutions?.
     
  4. rcduggan 大元帅

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2007
    Location:
    New England Democratic Republic
    Not in the OTL form, as many of the revolts were against the reactionism and new absolutism that many rulers displayed in the aftermath of the French Revolution. If that pivotal event doesn't happen, no slide back to conservativism and reactionary politics, and no 1848 revolutionary wave.
     
  5. fhaessig Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2004
    Location:
    Leiden ( Netherlands )
    Actually, without the french revolution, you may see the ROYAL french armies coming around for a set of war/conquest.

    It's extremely likely, the wars will be shorter and France will likely have some allies ( other than Spain ), and while the armies will be different, french artillery superiority will still be there. The royal french armies would have a lot ( but definitely not all ) of the advantages of the french revolutionary armies and be better on some revolutionary shortcoming. The french Navy, especially is going to be an entierely different beast.

    So you delaying the french revolution may actually get you a bigger France when/if the revolution finally comes ( definitely if no serious societal changes ), which could include parts of OTL Germany or Italy or Belgium ( I don't really know where royal france would have fought and what territory exchange deal it may have done )
     
  6. Philip One L only

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2007
    That seems to create a challenge: Can you get Napoleon at the head of Louis XVI(I)'s armies?
     
  7. fhaessig Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2004
    Location:
    Leiden ( Netherlands )
    I don't see how. He was barely a noble.

    OTOH, nearly the same could be said of Sebastien Le Pestre de Vauban.

    We could imagine that Napoleon has a career similar to Vauban, but it will take time before he is Marshall ( I think he will stay general for a long time and only get Marshall if/when he manages some extreme victory ). I don't see him as possible head of all the armies.

    OTOH, even if Napoleon manages to become a Marshall, there's the possibility of quite a lot of the revolution/empire general and marshalls ( those that were at least small nobility to begin with ) to get equivalent ranks. And that, I think, is more to the advantage of the french armies than getting Napoleon.

    EDIT : For exemple : you could get Berthier ( Or Davout ) as Marshall ( or even commander in chief in extreme case ) and General Bonapartes serving under him. How is that for irony?

    Of course, that supposes that Napoleon doesn't end up serving the Ottoman throne, as he nearly did OTL before the revolution.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2009