El Caudillo Andrés Novales: An Alternate History Scenario (Take 2)

[Cuāuhtemōc]

I'm starting to appreciate the Synod of Manila and its respect for the native tongues.

A modern nation of the 19th century would not. Just saying.

Exactly. My parent's homeland mostly spoke Native American languages until the late 19th century because the political elite wanted their country to feel more European and realized they weren't a popular destination for immigrants.

 

[Simeon]

There are way too few pure-blood Spaniards to run the Philippines and way too far for any large-scale European immigration (for now). I'd guess there will be some accommodation of the richer and socially influential mestizos and natives, whomever they may be.

And that means creolization and hispanization of the vocabulary will creep at the earliest days of the republic.

I propose this: The Philippine languages will mostly preserve their grammar(s) (and maybe standardized later on, but WILL NOT be bastardized), but the vocabulary and phonemes will be more hispanic than OTL. I just think Chavacano is too hispanic, in a grammatical sense (even though I didn't knew that language , explain it to me, senpai).

Think of Tagalog with more hispanic words replacing the original words, and the same with Pampangeño, but with both retaining their grammar.

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

I suspect that will be more of a trend amongst the more "sophisticated" Filipinos. How else would they make themselves pretend to be better than everyone else around them?

 

[Simeon]

I suspect that will be more of a trend amongst the more "sophisticated" Filipinos. How else would they make themselves pretend to be better than everyone else around them?

Captain: FUEGOOO!!!
Soldier: SUGOOOD!!!

Let's just leave it to @ramones1986 to fill it out on later posts.

Turn this to a full-fledged TL, please (beautiful eyes).

 

[Tredecimus]

What will be the foreign relations of this republic towards her neighbors? Any chances of them opening Japan instead of the US?

How about Imperial China?

 

[ramones1986]

What will be the foreign relations of this republic towards her neighbors? Any chances of them opening Japan instead of the US?

The US would still reopen Japan to the world, like in OTL. As for its relationship with the rest of Southeast Asia, well..., let's see....

How about Imperial China?

Let's see from the point of view of the Hokkien traders residing in Binondo...

 

[Tredecimus]

The US would still reopen Japan to the world, like in OTL. As for its relationship with the rest of Southeast Asia, well..., let's see....

I find it quite funny that the US will still reach Japan first before the Philippines. Remember my suggestion about an agreement with the Dutch? That might go a long way towards a trade access to Dejima.

 

[ramones1986]

La Ciudad de Iloilo: The Agony of Juan Antonio Martínez

While the island of Luzón, now known to the rebels (now as Junta Provisional de las Provincias Unidas de las Islas Filipinas) as Territorio Libre (Free Territory), became independent on the 12th of June,1823, the Colonial Government of the Spanish East Indies, led by its Governor-General Juan Antonio Martínez, relocated to the the city of Iloilo, the second most important Visayan city, after they fled from the province of Pampanga. Immediately, the Governor-General sent a series of letters to provincial-level authorities across the Visayas and northern Mindanao to improve their governance, especially in the island-province of Bohol, where there was an ongoing rebellion for almost eighty years; the Governor-General feared that anytime, the Junta Provisional ("the government of the rebels") could use the rebellion for their expansion.

Publicly, Juan Antonio Martínez appeared to be a respectful leader, especially among the liberal sectors of the society. Privately, he blamed himself for the events that led to the rebellion in Intramuros and consequently, the loss of the Luzón provinces to the rebels: in his first year as Governor-General of the Philippines, he continued the relatively liberal policies established by his predecessor Mariano Fernández de Folgueras on his last two years as Governor-General. Martínez knew that instituting reforms to the Islands would be difficult to execute because he felt that he was sandwiched by two rival factions: the radicalized liberals, whose opinions ranged from "reform at all cost" to complete independence, and the conservatives, who thought that the proposed reforms by the current Governor-General would endanger their status quo, particularly among the Roman Catholic friars. The same problems that encountered Juan Antonio Martínez in Manila were the same when he relocated to the City of Iloilo.

In his diary, the Governor-General blamed himself for trusting too much to Andrés Novales' elder brother Mariano for defending the gates and walls of Intramuros that he didn't know that the former would be betrayed, especially when he found out that Mariano was secretly supporting the views and aspirations of his younger brother. In addition, Martínez reflected in his diary that the proverb "blood is thicker than water" was the summary of such betrayal, beyond politics and ambition. At times, Juan Antonio Martínez asked in his diary, would he forgive the Novales brothers, especially Mariano? Not for now, he wrote; however, he further explained that he can forgive the brothers in the future if he resigned as the Governor-General of the Philippines.

What could be the real relationshp between Mariano Novales and Juan Antonio Martínez?​

 

[Tredecimus]

Martinez should at least defend central Luzon. He can call upon reinforcements from the northern garrisons like he did OTL.

If they still lose, then a fighting retreat towards Bataan or Zambales is possible.

Another thing. Royalist ships can bombard Manila to distract the rebels from actively pursuing Martinez.

 

[Simeon]

I find it quite funny that the US will still reach Japan first before the Philippines. Remember my suggestion about an agreement with the Dutch? That might go a long way towards a trade access to Dejima.

Wait, wait...

If the Philippine-Dutch alliance shall ever arise, what the relationship would be? Dutch dominating, or a not-so-token respect? The latter is desirable, since this IS A PHILIPPINE TL!!!

But the question of what the Dutch will get should be addressed first and foremost.

Anyways, if you are talking about trade and relations, here are the questions:

1. Will the PH economy grow and industrialize?

2. Are the Dutch willing to trade with them, esp. raw materials?

3. Military strength of both nations?

4. Attitudes of the government and diplomats from both sides?

Answers:

1. Considering that industrialization is still young at this point of time, it will be at least a decade before PH industrializes, in the most of all liberal sense. However, the government may restructure the economy to make it better and in turn, more powerful.

Sell to the Dutch? Yes, but at the same time, develop and expand the middle class better through fair trade (although the Ilustrados may have a harder time entering Spain now! NO IDEAS!!! (although the Dutch can help)

2. I dunno

3. Ha! the Dutch had naval superiority at 'tis point of time. Develop ship-building capabilities. Consult locals about heavy-duty wood (considering ironclads are not a thing at 'tis moment).

And the labor question? Some will shout over forced labor, albeit this time, a paid one. However, the real problem in the forced labor system is the payment that are just kept by the employers instead of being given over the workers. The government may battle this type of corruption. However, one will only see how effective this will be.

4. I dunno about the Dutch, but Philippines will have to see the Dutch as a "mentor", meaning that: acknowledging that you're a bit inferior, ally with them so to get key and desirable benefits, and turning a blind eye once the Dutch fucks.

 

[Timaeus]

In all honesty, I see the Philippines being a British ally and actually opposing the Dutch at every turn. After all, the clearest road of expansion is south.

 

[Simeon]

In all honesty, I see the Philippines being a British ally and actually opposing the Dutch at every turn. After all, the clearest road of expansion is south.

Maybe. Philippines, after all, there is a need to balance the colonial dutch, and the option is "perfidious Albion. Anyways, they can go to Oxbridge!

I also don't see any reason why Philippines will expand beyond its recent borders, at least for 1820's, and if they ever colonize beside of nationalistic wankery, which is unlikely for now, it's because they want farmland to make room for "little farmers" and haciendas.

 

[Timaeus]

Maybe. Philippines, after all, there is a need to balance the colonial dutch, and the option is "perfidious Albion. Anyways, they can go to Oxbridge!

I also don't see any reason why Philippines will expand beyond its recent borders, at least for 1820's, and if they ever colonize beside of nationalistic wankery, which is unlikely for now, it's because they want farmland to make room for "little farmers" and haciendas.

*Oil industry!*

 

[Simeon]

*Oil industry!*

IT'S 1823, WARHAWK!!!

 

[Timaeus]

IT'S 1823, WARHAWK!!!

It's the only way to make the Philippines a regional power.

 

[Simeon]

It's the only way to make the Philippines a regional power.

ARANETA AND COJUANGCO DON'T NEED SULU, WE NEED TAIWAN!!!

Eh, anyways, should they not annex Sulu, they should heavily vassalize Sulu at the south and convince them and the British to turn down the lease on Sabah later on, because you know, for more rice fields. If they are reluctant, offer parity rights over the resources on that region.

Anyways, speaking of annexations, you can easily annex mainland Mindanao.

 

[Tredecimus]

What are you guys talking about? Sabah won't even become an issue at this point in time.

Why do we need to fight the Dutch? Compromise is a much better solution.

As for Mindanao, how big were the northern settlements at that time? They're probably concentrated around the coast, especially in OTL Cagayan de Oro. Lake Lanao or Rio Grande de Mindanao would make a interesting demarcation line between Christian and Muslim Mindanao.

 

[Simeon]

That's why they will not annex Sulu. However, it may become an issue once 1) the population, especially farming population increases (considering that the outgoing farmers of haciendas will be replaced), and 2) imperialism from both sides. It may happen in the 50's.

And the Dutch, they should never fight the Dutch, let alone the Brits. It's just that @Timaeus wants oil.

In all honesty, I see the Philippines being a British ally and actually opposing the Dutch at every turn. After all, the clearest road of expansion is south.

*Oil industry!*

It's the only way to make the Philippines a regional power.

HA!

 

[ramones1986]

As for Mindanao, how big were the northern settlements at that time? They're probably concentrated around the coast, especially in OTL Cagayan de Oro. Lake Lanao or Rio Grande de Mindanao would make a interesting demarcation line between Christian and Muslim Mindanao.

They're relatively modest compared to Luzon and Visayas; indeed, the only principal settlements at that time were coastal Misamis, partcularly Cagayan de Oro and Zamboanga.

 

[Simeon]

They're relatively modest compared to Luzon and Visayas; indeed, the only principal settlements at that time were coastal Misamis, partcularly Cagayan de Oro and Zamboanga.

Just wait for the "emancipation of serfs".