Eisen, Blut und Fernhandel -German Unification in the 1860s

@bm79
It is not that well known, but Max von Brandt was a big proponent OTL of taking or buying Hokkaido in the 1860s.


That really is fascinating. Any German colonial designs and adventures prior to 1884 look just so ATL in any case.


@Hörnla
Who says it is the third war (kind of) that is butterflied away? For those with intimate knowledge of the intra-german politics it is clear that 1866 might have been very different with just a few different events before. As a hint, if austrian foreign minister von Rechberg would have gotten the guarantees he wanted from Bismarck, the war would not have happened.
In ATL unlike OTL, Bismarck will have reasons to give von Rechberg these guarantees.


I am sorry, someone's earlier comment led me to that assumption. I fall easily for that, because, IMHO, German unification is easier to imagine without the Deutsch-Französischer Krieg than with the war of 1866. But I agree that in the 1860s, there is so much in fluid, there are so many plans and proposals - and actually lots of small steps being undertaken towards German unification prior to Jan 18th, 1871.


The British would not have done much about Hokkaido, no matter the moaning of the "Rule Britannia" pink glases. Many of them seem unable to read the UK´s own documents if it does not support their worldview. (rant off)
At that time, Japan was a side play, Germany would stay out of China, which the UK wanted and as long as India is not in danger, London would care less or not at all, what Germany does on an Island far from the Empire´s main possessions.


I agree that Hokkaido is not Britain's sphere of interest, also I say that such a step would be seen more positive in the 1860s than at the start of German colonialism in the 1880s when the scramble to claim the last open spaces was on and when Germany had become Europe's semi-hegemon.

But I am positive that there would be some sort of reaction towards a step in Prussian politics which would be seen as very novel.


Even accounting for the huge distance, the economic boost for the Zollverein states will be massive.
I do not want to spoil too much, so I just say that the ATL Shogun will be the equivalent to the OTL PM.


This development of the Shogunate makes perfect sense to me. But the economic boost....these distances really are huge at that point of time. The possibility for fair trade with the emerging industry of Germany (German economy in the 1860's is not nearly as strong as it is to be a few decades later) will boost Japan's economy first, in the long run, I agree, the possibilities are mutual and exponential!



HMMMM - did you just say the war of 1866 will not happen TTL???

This will definitely have impacts further down the road. as the War of 1866 had a secondary theater: Italy. Will Austria keep Venetia? and if AUstria is not fighting 1866 - what about the Ausgleich? Is Austria even part of the coalition against France if Otls 1870 war happens. Or is Austria busy taking over Mexico from France ??? - OMG....Mexico part iof a future Central powers ... and as the Empress is of Belgian descent is Belgium inclined to side with the CPs this time...????


The way Beer alludes at 1866 not happening, I do not see Franz Josef seeing himself forced to give up Venetia (and still fighting over it to keep face); and Italia won't take on Austria alone.

I speculate here, that we might see a re-run of 1859 somewhen around 1870 BUT this time with the rest of Germany not only mobilizing, but siding with Austria against France and Italy.

Concerning the Ausgleich, Empress Elisabeth was not a powerful political figure but whatever weight she had, she used to push the Hungarian cause. However, without a defeat and threat of imminent collapse of the monarchy, I expect such an Ausgleich to be much more carefully drafted and allow for Hungarian autonomy, but not such a devoluted Con-Federation. Butterflies might also lead to trialism at this point of time.

However, with such far-reaching butterflies, it is moot to speculate already about a global war in 1914....
 

Beer

Banned
Hi Hörnla!

Interesting comment by you!
You are right that a reaction would be happening in London. But it will be changing over time. At first, London will be rather amused about the "fumbling" fools in Berlin, we cannot forget the supreme arrogance displayed by the British Empire in that timeframe. "Look at the Prussians, their first foray into getting a real colony and what happens? They let themselves being pulled over the table by Slant-eyes. These poor Sods!"
Decades later London will still be arrogant, but now, with the positives Germany got over time, it will be more thoughtful. Or even envious.

Hokkaido might be a turning point in the German colonial ambitions even before they really start. Now if we just assume for a moment that Hokkaido would be developed along the lines already thought about, then after a few decades Hokkaido will be settled by Germans, Japanese, some eurasian offspring and the rest of the Ainu. The Island, since being developed more or less by two nations will boast a higher population and will be both an agricultural and industrial center.
Now the great colonial grab begins and Germany takes say, DSWA/Namibia for all the reasons of that Era. Hokkaido was not cheap for Germany, far from it, but the result is impressive. Now Berlin hopes for a second Hokkaido, but what happens? Nothing of that sort! Due to climate and other things (not the last being Hokkaido itself), there is only a trickle of settlers and Berlin just pays and pays, without all that much coming out of it. Unlike the Japanese the tribes in DSWA have no wish to become a Great Power, so in comparison to Hokkaido, DSWA will be seen as an epic fail by Berlin. Under these circumstances I cannot see ATL Germany doing much in the colonial department later on, because Berlin will be spoiled rotten by the success of Hokkaido and will overlook that ATL Hokkaido is the colonial outlier and not the norm.
Less colonial adventures will mean less colonial tensions, another butterfly.

Yes, in the early days, Japan might get more out of her membership in the Zollverein, but the european part of the Zollverein has every incentive to ramp up production and expansion, with both sides pushing the other forward. If we extrapolate from OTL with it´s less optimal start points, it would not be bold to speculate that Germany and Japan reach their 1910 level a decade earlier ATL, maybe even a bit more earlier.
 
Very interesting timeline. Subscribed. I am looking forward to where you take it, and to learning some more about the period from the discussion.

Korea was mentioned earlier. Given that Japan is now a member of the Zollverein, will they be feeling less threatened by the other powers, especially Russia? Could Korea gain admission as an equal, or at least junior partner rather than a puppet? This could butterfly the Russo-Japanese war, since I think the Russians would hesitate against a Japan that is closely linked to Germany.

Alternatively, it might advance matters. If the Russians see Japan getting close to Germany, and they still want to pressure Japan, then perhaps they get closer to France. Assuming a similar Franco-Prussian war, this might lead to OTLs Russo-Japanese war replaced by a smaller version of WW1, with say Germany + Austria-Hungary + Japan against France + Russia + Italy? Possibilities, possibilities.

For that matter, if Japan participates in the Franco-Prussian war, they probably can not do anything in Europe. However, they could sweep the French out of Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos; and collect up any French concessions in China.

As for Britain, I don't see them as getting involved militarily against Germany. IIRC Britain was interested in maintaining naval superiority. Assuming Tirpitz doesn't talk Germany into building a short range fleet to challenge the RN, I don't see them having a problem with Germany. As you put it, they may mock and first, and later envy, but both Britain (from tradition and their current empire) and Germany (from their new Zollverein partner on the other side of the planet) now have strong vested interests in freedom of navigation and trade.

I just can not see how Tirpitz could be successful, since the trade routes between Germany and Japan are impossible to safeguard from the British. Given that Germany has strong incentives to keep Britain friendly or neutral, I see the future German Navy about a quarter the size of the Royal Navy with a bunch of cruisers and a small battle fleet. They now have lengthy trade routes to protect.

As you point out, they will also not have the same colonial conflict drivers. Hokkaido will be a success, and Namibia, not so much. After that, they probably will not press for anything else in Africa, which will reduce tensions with the British.

They probably will still be looking for other colonies for naval bases along their route to Japan. I expect they will still be interested in the Carolines assuming the Spanish American war happens ITL. For that matter, they might want to buy some of them from Spain to set up a cross-Pacific alternative to the Indian Ocean - Suez - Med route.
 
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Concerning an alternate trans-Pacific route between Germany and Japan: Could Germany enter a joint venture with the USA to build the Panama Canal?
 
Korea was mentioned earlier. Given that Japan is now a member of the Zollverein, will they be feeling less threatened by the other powers, especially Russia? Could Korea gain admission as an equal, or at least junior partner rather than a puppet? This could butterfly the Russo-Japanese war, since I think the Russians would hesitate against a Japan that is closely linked to Germany.

I'd rather think the opposite: It's already made clear that Japan will benefit greatly from this, and likely also earlier. As a consequence Japan would be stronger than IOTL plus allied with Germany. Furthermore, the Japanese do not hold Hokkaido, so have even more incentive to expand elsewhere.

I think Japan taking Korea is more likely ITTL, and with full access to the Japanese market the Germans will support that. Russia, OTOH, should be more reluctant to oppose that. After all, Russian expansion also threatens German Hokkaido!

Alternatively, it might advance matters. If the Russians see Japan getting close to Germany, and they still want to pressure Japan, then perhaps they get closer to France. Assuming a similar Franco-Prussian war, this might lead to OTLs Russo-Japanese war replaced by a smaller version of WW1, with say Germany + Austria-Hungary + Japan against France + Russia + Italy? Possibilities, possibilities.

That's more likely IMHO, albeit with AH as an ally of France and Russia and Italy allied with Germany.

For that matter, if Japan participates in the Franco-Prussian war, they probably can not do anything in Europe. However, they could sweep the French out of Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos; and collect up any French concessions in China.

I think it is too early for Japan - or Germany - to take on French Indochina.

Nevertheless, both sides will concentrate on securing the sealines between them. On one hand that means placating Britain, on a second hand this means that a cruiser fleet is needed, and thirdly both will plan colonial expansion to secure coaling stations in between. Colonial expansion of Germany is likely increased in comparison to OTL, and the same might hod for Japan.

As for Britain, I don't see them as getting involved militarily against Germany. IIRC Britain was interested in maintaining naval superiority. Assuming Tirpitz doesn't talk Germany into building a short range fleet to challenge the RN, I don't see them having a problem with Germany. As you put it, they may mock and first, and later envy, but both Britain (from tradition and their current empire) and Germany (from their new Zollverein partner on the other side of the planet) now have strong vested interests in freedom of navigation and trade.

Very true.

Another thing to consider is that Japan and Germany are likely at odds with Russia, which doesn't really alienate them from Britain either.

As you point out, they will also not have the same colonial conflict drivers. Hokkaido will be a success, and Namibia, not so much. After that, they probably will not press for anything else in Africa, which will reduce tensions with the British.

They probably will still be looking for other colonies for naval bases along their route to Japan. I expect they will still be interested in the Carolines assuming the Spanish American war happens ITL. For that matter, they might want to buy some of them from Spain to set up a cross-Pacific alternative to the Indian Ocean - Suez - Med route.

With trade to the far East this important, Germany needs coaling stations. Their colonial Empire will likely look very different from OTL, particularly if there's a war with France anytime soon. But it wouldn't be smaller IMHO. Tansania plus Sansibar makes a good base in the Indian ocean. Germany and Japan will definitely be very interested in the Spanish Philippines. Something along the Western coast of Africa is also needed.
 
Colonial expansion of Germany is likely increased in comparison to OTL, and the same might hod for Japan.

You skipped a post by Beer:

Under these circumstances I cannot see ATL Germany doing much in the colonial department later on, because Berlin will be spoiled rotten by the success of Hokkaido and will overlook that ATL Hokkaido is the colonial outlier and not the norm.
Less colonial adventures will mean less colonial tensions, another butterfly.
 

Beer

Banned
Hi!

Thank you all for the compliments and the very thoughtful comments!

As far as independence goes, ATL Korea is screwed. Japan will be strong a lot earlier than OTL and they have the same wish as OTL to be part of the Great Powers. That Germany might hold Hokkaido is not that much a factor, since the Island is held by a good friend and as said, Hokkaido was never that much a factor in Japanese politics before their industrialisation. But Tokyo will expand and Korea is a tasty treat just around the corner.
Berlin, with free access to the japanese market unlike most other nations, will not stop them. The only thing is that Berlin will try to hinder the worst excesses the Japanese did there. This is ATL a bit easier. The Japanese are under a bit less pressure and considering how ATL Nippon herself rose in status, Tokyo might really get the idea to make a "Zollverein very light".

Yes, Germany´s colonial ambitions will change into a whole new direction. As said in the posts above, taking large chunks of colonies will not happen, the obvious different developments of Hokkaido compared to the rest will sour an large scale expansion.
A row of small to medium "supply colonies" along the way to Japan is a must, but even these "coaling colonies" will generate less tension for Germany since their extend is limited and leave the big crisis´for other colonial powers.

The Panama Channel might become a thing that brings Germany and the US closer. Germany has no interests in the Americas beyond trade and a faster way to Japan would be really nice. I can definitely see a plausible cooperation there.

On naval matters, I think that ATL develops in the direction that von Hallmann will get his way and Germany will build a cruiser fleet with only the necessary number of Dreadnoughts.
Hell, Tirpitz was no dummy OTL, so I think even his ATL counterpart can see that Germany needs a Fleet with a different load-out under the circumstances. By the time Tirpitz and von Hallmann are in the position to make naval policy, Germany and Japan trade for roughly 40 years on a massive level. Both men will grow up with that fact. I doubt that the positions of those two will be as different as they where OTL.
 
A row of small to medium "supply colonies" along the way to Japan is a must, but even these "coaling colonies" will generate less tension for Germany since their extend is limited and leave the big crisis´for other colonial powers.

That sounds quite reasonable. I'm no expert, but how many "coaling colonies" are needed to get to Japan?
 

Beer

Banned
That sounds quite reasonable. I'm no expert, but how many "coaling colonies" are needed to get to Japan?
Hi!
That depends on the max range of the steam ships. Since I am no expert on the ships of the mid/late 19th century, I have to look into it first. Or if some maritime fans can tell me, that would be great.
 
By the way, and to continue my tradition of mostly useless quips, I actually misread the TL's title as "Eisen, Blut und Fernandel" :D

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Buying (more) shares of the Suez might be seen as wise (both countries might do it) OTL the sale of shres was slow and only when the Khedive bought in large the project took off - maybe TTL Prussia (and maybe Austria too thinks differently)
 
Damn, I'm not really sure about the whole German Ezo thing. It's one thing to open your country wide to a trustable gaijins, it's another to sell an island practically attached to your homeland, a backwater it maybe, even if the said friendly country is oceans away. Needless to say that Japan will demand a lot from this. When you first mentioned it I'd thought Germany only aims for something of a concession without entirely transfer of ownership over the island. What I can see is something of a co-dominium or a rent-lease. They surely won't mind sharing the cost of defense against Russia with Doitsujins. Simply giving it away though, I think won't bode so well for Japan's prestige. Of course German colony there won't be defensible at all against Japan(which puzzles me: why and how did the Germans even develop interest for it anyway?), but why should even do what the Japanese can do for you ? Sharing responsibilities will be cheaper for both parties, and Germany will still get a base and land there.

And as for Korea I would say it's a much nicer and cheaper way to make them an economic colony by adding them to Zollverein.
 
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Tyr Anazasi

Banned
In OTL the British (and Prince Adalbert) tried to convince Bismarck to get large chunks of the French fleet as well. Bismarck, who knew Germany had no men to crew them, declined. Here the fleet might be a bit bigger.

Germany here needs a cruiser fleet and a battle fleet large enough to keep the French (and Russians perhaps) at bay. The problem is, in how far Britain will see that as threat... If Fashoda and the great game happen, Britain would use both as Allies agaist the French. The problem is the point, in which Germany is detected rightfully as main rival...

The Weyer Fleet almanach of 1914 is a good source for some bachround infomation. In it the duality between Japan and USA in the Far East is already described. We will have to see what will happen here.

As for colonies: DSWA, DOA, Deutsch-Neuguinea, Togo, perhaps Cameroon as well. Why? There should be three ways to Japan. One via America. Here no colony can be acquired (perhaps some Virgin islands). Africa is another thing. Here you need two routes, one via Suez, the other via Cape of Good Hope. If you want DSWA you need also stations before. Here Togo, Cameroon and Congo could be acquired. In the east you could acquire everything from Somalia to Mosambique. Here another colony is needed as well.

India is Britain's playground, but New Guinea and the Solomon islands could be acquired. And then you're there.
 
Selling Hokkaido makes sense from the Japanese standpoint. In OTL, Japan went heavily into debt to finance the Meiji reforms; here, it has a chance to convert some under-used territory into cash that they can use to develop its heartland. (It will still have to go into debt, but not as much, which might make Japanese politics more stable later on.)

Coaling stations: I guess that depends on which route the German-Japanese trade will follow. If the ships are going through Suez, Germany might want a station on the Horn of Africa (maybe Obock/Djibouti), one in southeast Asia, and maybe a Hong Kong-like enclave on the coast of China. If they're going around Africa, then there will need to be a colony in West Africa, one in East Africa, plus the southeast Asia and China stations. If they're going around Cape Horn, Germany will want a couple of Pacific islands and might even make a bid for Tierra del Fuego. I have no idea whether shippers of the time would prefer the Africa or South America route, although if Suez were available, I assume they'd use it.

One thing that might be considered is that the Japanese would want Germany to have colonies, because that would give them free access to the colonies' products. Depending on how close the two countries get, Japan might even want to participate in a couple of the German colonial ventures.
 
Hi Hörnla!
Interesting comment by you!.

Thank you very much. I appreciate contributing to this timeline.

You are right that a reaction would be happening in London. But it will be changing over time. At first, London will be rather amused about the "fumbling" fools in Berlin, we cannot forget the supreme arrogance displayed by the British Empire in that timeframe. "Look at the Prussians, their first foray into getting a real colony and what happens? They let themselves being pulled over the table by Slant-eyes. These poor Sods!"
Decades later London will still be arrogant, but now, with the positives Germany got over time, it will be more thoughtful. Or even envious..

Well, that is a reaction. Benevolent or not, a major nation (Prussia is not Belgium or Denmark) entering the colonial scene will be marked upon.
 
Now the great colonial grab begins and Germany takes say, DSWA/Namibia for all the reasons of that Era. Hokkaido was not cheap for Germany, far from it, but the result is impressive. Now Berlin hopes for a second Hokkaido, but what happens? Nothing of that sort! Due to climate and other things (not the last being Hokkaido itself), there is only a trickle of settlers and Berlin just pays and pays, without all that much coming out of it. Unlike the Japanese the tribes in DSWA have no wish to become a Great Power, so in comparison to Hokkaido, DSWA will be seen as an epic fail by Berlin. Under these circumstances I cannot see ATL Germany doing much in the colonial department later on, because Berlin will be spoiled rotten by the success of Hokkaido and will overlook that ATL Hokkaido is the colonial outlier and not the norm. .

I am afraid that this is not how that era's chauvinism would work. A success in Hokkaido will only encourage other designs. If they are less successful economically? They won't be presented that way beforehands, and they won't be given up once failure is proven. That also didn't hinter OTL's Germany at all. AFAIK, only Togo was marginally profitable for the Kaiserreich. ITTL, I am certain that the net gains from Hokkaido will be used to present a good balance of the German Colonial Empire and to promote more gains.

That's how I understand the consequences of being "spoilt rotten" by a "Hokkaido economic miracle": such a success might encourage Germany to acquire more territories earlier instead of putting those chances down (as Bismarck OTL prefered to until 1884).
 
Yes, in the early days, Japan might get more out of her membership in the Zollverein, but the european part of the Zollverein has every incentive to ramp up production and expansion, with both sides pushing the other forward. If we extrapolate from OTL with it´s less optimal start points, it would not be bold to speculate that Germany and Japan reach their 1910 level a decade earlier ATL, maybe even a bit more earlier.
I fear you exaggerate the possibilities. Please detail on us what they shall trade with each other which would generate so much economic growth? For Germany, Japan is about the geographically most remote possible trading partner!

I am not an expert, but probably only manufactured goods would be valuable enough to justify such a distance. How'd Japan whose economy is a step behind Germany's pay for those? What would both partners produce which couldn't be rather produced on the home market, or, despite tarriffs, still be cheaper imported from the UK, the USA or in the respective neighbourhood?

I am not saying that this kind of Zollverein were a bad idea. I am just very much arguing that you shouldn't expect wonders.
Crucial would be the following:

Japan must find export-areas (China/Korea) where they can sell their goods which they are enabled to produce due to German investment resp. with equipment bought in Germany. Japan could obtain these at fairer prices than elsewhere. It would IMHO work as a trade-triangle at the expense of non-Japanese East Asia, with Japan indirectly profiting by having a higher turnover and quicker development, economically and due to more revenues in infrastructure, too, and Germany being the main profiter as it would have an excellent growing market for its most advanced goods.
But, I might be wrong or overlook something.

As for Britain, I don't see them as getting involved militarily against Germany. IIRC Britain was interested in maintaining naval superiority. Assuming Tirpitz doesn't talk Germany into building a short range fleet to challenge the RN, I don't see them having a problem with Germany. .

I won't say that Anglo-German conflict was inevitable. But economic rivalry was a key proponent of that, too. In OTL, did Britain have the gravest colonial disputes around 1900 with Germany? No, with France and Russia. Which country had the ability in 1914 to built a fleet to match and challenge the Royal Navy? Not Germany, which had to afford a huge first-class Army and was unable to keep up with the British naval programme, but rather, if at all, the United States. If there is a war in the 1910s, and your POD is pre-1900, it is up to personal taste whether Germany and Britain fight with or against each other.

As you point out, they will also not have the same colonial conflict drivers. Hokkaido will be a success, and Namibia, not so much. After that, they probably will not press for anything else in Africa, which will reduce tensions with the British.

Again, Germany's African colonies were hardly the decisive conflict drivers up to 1914, with the possible exception of East-Africa. However, London and Berlin could cooperate neatly enough to envisage a partition of the Portoguese territories on that continent.
 
 
 

Beer

Banned
Hi Ridwan!

Max von Brandt was an early Far East expert. He wrote a lot of books about China, Japan, etc. ,which were one, two notches in quality above most other works of his time. And unlike many would-be colonists, he knew what a potentially successful colony for Germany (or other Europeans) should look like.
a) climate acceptable for Europeans
b) agriculture possible and space for industrial development, bonus points if resource rich
c) outside the main colonial inroads, making it easier to hold and less problems with neighbours
d) cheap to get
e) if possible, keeping good relations with the guys you took/bought it from

It is often underestimated due to Japan´s development later, how few thoughts Tokyo spared in centuries about Hokkaido. Von Brandt learned about this during the Eulenburg expedition and how close the Island was to the points he thought important in a colony.
He pushed in Berlin to make a bid in Tokyo for Hokkaido, but thae situation in Europe stood mostly against that. Bismarck wanted to do that only after unification and by that time, the Meji-time had begun, making Hokkaido really expensive to get. So it never came to that.
But as posted sometime earlier, if for whatever reason Bismarck would have made a bid, he would have tried for a co-development, due to the great distances involved. So even with Hokkaido fully german, the Japanese would still had a foot in the door. Especially on the cultural level, this would have been a highly interesting experiment. Just imagine this Hokkaido after 150 years in the now.
 
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