Could dueling have survived to the present day? Stayed upper-class or spread down? Pistols or sabers? First blood, to the death or one shot?
Dueling
- Thread starter EvolvedSaurian
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NapoleonXIV
Banned
As a violent confrontation, no. Even in it's heyday it was criticized as legalized murder. It would look particularly silly after WWI, which showed people that death could be mass produced and there was no longer any skill or courage required to kill someone.
As a nonviolent contest, doesn't it still exist? Debating societies and whatnot
As a nonviolent contest, doesn't it still exist? Debating societies and whatnot
I would think that for dueling to survive in the modern world, it would probably have to be with the blade, and only fought to first blood. Dueling to the death opens all kinds of doors for legalised murder, and firearms are not really suited to any form of non-lethal dueling. On the other hand, if two consenting adults want to swipe swords at each other until one of them picks up a relatively minor injury, I could see that being somewhat accepted.
If duelling were to be re-allowed, IMHO a professional class of duellists would develop. Want to humiliate an enemy? your professional would insult him, and put him in a position where he either looks a wimp or has to duel.
It is quite a popular theme in SF books, btw. It might make a come-back, why not?
It is quite a popular theme in SF books, btw. It might make a come-back, why not?
LordKalvan said:
Such as Weber's Honorverse.
One of the things that David Weber does in the Honorverse is televising duels between important people (Honor v. Summervale was recorded and IIRC, the Honor v. Young duel was televised). Would televised duels between important people become popular?
NapoleonXIV
Banned
Since the challenged has the choice of place and weapons can't he just make it ridiculous?
Lincoln was challenged to a duel. He at first specified the place as a cow pasture and the weapons as cowpies. When the challenger demanded real weapons Lincoln agreed to swords but gave a postion in Lat and Long which was the middle of the Mississippi River. The challenger finally gave up.
Lincoln was challenged to a duel. He at first specified the place as a cow pasture and the weapons as cowpies. When the challenger demanded real weapons Lincoln agreed to swords but gave a postion in Lat and Long which was the middle of the Mississippi River. The challenger finally gave up.
Aldroud
Banned
What do you mean 'Come Back'?
After WW2 there was a movement in France to renew dueling, as was a similar movement in Germany. Something called Mansaur or Manseur. Man, trust the Germans to come up with something like this: you and your opponent face eachother one blade's length away with eye/nose protectors and a padded sleeve. First one to draw blood on the face of their opponent wins. And there were German college societies that did this for FUN?!
(still do if some of the stuff I've heard is true).
Anyways, I'd fully support a return to dueling. Oh, but it has to have a 'to the DEATH!' clause in it. I would imagine it would bring a sharp comeback to civility and politeness in society.
An Armed Society is a Polite Society
After WW2 there was a movement in France to renew dueling, as was a similar movement in Germany. Something called Mansaur or Manseur. Man, trust the Germans to come up with something like this: you and your opponent face eachother one blade's length away with eye/nose protectors and a padded sleeve. First one to draw blood on the face of their opponent wins. And there were German college societies that did this for FUN?!
(still do if some of the stuff I've heard is true).Anyways, I'd fully support a return to dueling. Oh, but it has to have a 'to the DEATH!' clause in it. I would imagine it would bring a sharp comeback to civility and politeness in society.
An Armed Society is a Polite Society
Heidelberg was a classic place for students' duelling: if I remember right, the name was "Mensur". It was strongly discouraged after WW2, since it had strong links with Junkers and nazis, and it never did a real come back. It's a bit like those guys who on week ends dress like medieval knights, and re-enact jousts and pageants. Creative Anachronism.
And when you quote Robert Heinlein ('an armed society is a polite society'), give him his due.
And when you quote Robert Heinlein ('an armed society is a polite society'), give him his due.
Max Sinister
Banned
@Aldroud: The thing about the Mensur in Germany is true. It started in the 19th century IIRC, was very popular during the Second Empire, later declined, but is around even today (although there are few, and they're considered rightists or even fascists or at least weirdos by the majority). IMO it should die. Mark Twain wrote about it in his stories about Europe. And it's a fact that the students were proud to have scars in the face, so the doctors had to do a bad job, so the scars would look even worse.
Tielhard
Banned
1) Student dueling still goes on at Heidleberg and at least one other German University. I have no idea if it is legal or just tolerated (in a similar fashion to the way prostitution is treated in some places).
2) There is at least one country in Europe where dueling is legal it was in last week's Independent. May be Sweden?
2) There is at least one country in Europe where dueling is legal it was in last week's Independent. May be Sweden?
I suppose an analogy might be extreme abusive sexual practice. There was some debate a few years back in the UK about the legality of consensual S&M in which one or both partners suffer actual bodily harm. (IIRC it's still illegal in the UK even if both sides are entirely in their right minds and consent to it.)
I daresay the same law would apply to voluntary duelling societies: no matter how many waivers you signed, you'd still be liable for ABH or other offences.
Incidentally, I was a second at a mock-duel at uni. Two members of the fencing club met at dawn on King's Bridge and played twelve hits (in full gear, so no physical danger). The loser bought us all breakfast - was good fun!
I daresay the same law would apply to voluntary duelling societies: no matter how many waivers you signed, you'd still be liable for ABH or other offences.
Incidentally, I was a second at a mock-duel at uni. Two members of the fencing club met at dawn on King's Bridge and played twelve hits (in full gear, so no physical danger). The loser bought us all breakfast - was good fun!
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