Most excellent update Glen. I do love reading on the Empire.
Is the capital of Germany the City of Hanover?
Is the capital of Germany the City of Hanover?
Glen
Moderator
Thank you. I had always intended a Grimm update and was inspired to do so now by Google honoring the 200th anniversary of their fairy tales yesterday.
Glen
Moderator
Thanks - you may be right on the surface but I suspect it will have more popular readership than that. Recall too that this 19th century has seen no Victorian Age - sexual mores are a bit looser than OTL even if not formally acknowledged.
Thank God for that!
Good work on the last two updates, Glen! The last one you posted made me think about the differences between Germany and Prussia, though. Namely, in addition to the respective Liberal/Korsgaardist split, what linguistic differences there would be? IMHO Germany would be mostly High German, or a mix of that along with Low Saxon and Franconian dialects (as per OTL's West Germany, just much earlier), but Prussia might be a little trickier given the Polish influence. With that in mind, could their standardized dialect of German eventually come to look like Vilamovian, a German dialect with marked Polish/Slavic influences in orthography, phonology, etc.?
Keep up the good work!
Glen
Moderator
Thank God for that!
To each their own.
The situation that might be most applicable is that of Austria and how that impacted Austrian German.
Thanks, I will endeavor to do so!
Glen
Moderator
One of the hallmarks of the Second Elizabethan Era of the latter 19th century was the continued trend towards liberalized social trends. While some more tradition-minded commentators felt the whole of the 19th century saw a breakdown in traditional values and licentiousness, others saw it as an evolution of values as an outgrowth and successor of the Enlightenment. A part of this was the opening of the Western World to the more esoteric and erotic works of the ancient East.
The first work to make a major impact in the West was the release of the English translation of the Kamasutra (sometimes alternately spelled Kama Sutra) in 1867. Translated by Adventurer-Scholar Robert Hugh Mumby, a British gentleman born and bred in the East Midlands who made his diplomatic and academic career studying and traveling throughout the Indian subcontinent, and translated many Sanskrit and other Hindoo writings into English. His mark on the Zeitgeist of the Second Elizabethan Era, however, was made by his translation of this ancient Hindoo work by Vatsyayana. While fellow scholars also noted all the other details of Hindoo philosophy in the work, the popular press highlighted the sexual content of the work. It proved wildly popular if mildly scandalous in the British Empire and the United States, and was subsequently translated into several other European languages, especially in the West (the work was banned by the Korsgaardian regimes of the East but still German translations from the German Empire were smuggled into Prussia-Poland and Austria-Hungary, as well as underground translations in Slavic languages were made and distributed clandestinely).
The Ottoman Empire, while in the East, had aligned itself more and more with the West both politically, militarily, and culturally by the Second Elizabethan Age. When the Ottoman 'upper crust' started to see the hottest salacious trend from the West, some among them felt that the Ottoman pride demanded their own response, and in fact the Empire had their own heritage to draw upon to counter with. Court member Abd Al-Hadi, known in the West as Abdul Hadi Pasha, translated the classic Arabic work by Muhammad ibn Muhammad al-Nafzawi, The Perfumed Garden of Sensual Pleasure into English and had it published during his stay with the Ottoman legation in London in 1871. This made Abdul Hadi Pasha one of the most popular if infamous foreigners in 1870s London. The Perfumed Garden, as it was often shortened to when discussed, was much more focused on sexuality and more clinical than spiritual in tone, but was, if anything, more popular among the scandalized yet titillated public. There was one chapter of the unabridged work that was often omitted from the most common popular printings, dealing with more forbidding sexual acts for the West, though it was popular in certain underground circles.
The first work to make a major impact in the West was the release of the English translation of the Kamasutra (sometimes alternately spelled Kama Sutra) in 1867. Translated by Adventurer-Scholar Robert Hugh Mumby, a British gentleman born and bred in the East Midlands who made his diplomatic and academic career studying and traveling throughout the Indian subcontinent, and translated many Sanskrit and other Hindoo writings into English. His mark on the Zeitgeist of the Second Elizabethan Era, however, was made by his translation of this ancient Hindoo work by Vatsyayana. While fellow scholars also noted all the other details of Hindoo philosophy in the work, the popular press highlighted the sexual content of the work. It proved wildly popular if mildly scandalous in the British Empire and the United States, and was subsequently translated into several other European languages, especially in the West (the work was banned by the Korsgaardian regimes of the East but still German translations from the German Empire were smuggled into Prussia-Poland and Austria-Hungary, as well as underground translations in Slavic languages were made and distributed clandestinely).
The Ottoman Empire, while in the East, had aligned itself more and more with the West both politically, militarily, and culturally by the Second Elizabethan Age. When the Ottoman 'upper crust' started to see the hottest salacious trend from the West, some among them felt that the Ottoman pride demanded their own response, and in fact the Empire had their own heritage to draw upon to counter with. Court member Abd Al-Hadi, known in the West as Abdul Hadi Pasha, translated the classic Arabic work by Muhammad ibn Muhammad al-Nafzawi, The Perfumed Garden of Sensual Pleasure into English and had it published during his stay with the Ottoman legation in London in 1871. This made Abdul Hadi Pasha one of the most popular if infamous foreigners in 1870s London. The Perfumed Garden, as it was often shortened to when discussed, was much more focused on sexuality and more clinical than spiritual in tone, but was, if anything, more popular among the scandalized yet titillated public. There was one chapter of the unabridged work that was often omitted from the most common popular printings, dealing with more forbidding sexual acts for the West, though it was popular in certain underground circles.
Very interesting. I like that the implication is that the 19th century in general was rather saucy as opposed to OTL where most people think of the 19th century and remember that story about covering up piano legs.
Also, I enjoyed my appearance immensely. Seems this distant ATL relative is in the same mould as Sir Richard Burton of OTL.
Also, I enjoyed my appearance immensely. Seems this distant ATL relative is in the same mould as Sir Richard Burton of OTL.
Glen
Interesting development. That means that basically instead of the Victorian back-lash the relatively open stance of the previous years continued largely unbroken. Although likely to be some back-lash sooner or later and elements like the churches could well be leading it. Also would there be more or less liberal views on things like alcohol consumption - thinking of OTL temperance movements.
The other thing that comes to mind is it won't only be the Ottomans who want to show they can spin some saucy tales. Likely to see a fair number of European writers moving more into such areas or at least getting earlier and more widespread acceptance.
Steve
Interesting development. That means that basically instead of the Victorian back-lash the relatively open stance of the previous years continued largely unbroken. Although likely to be some back-lash sooner or later and elements like the churches could well be leading it. Also would there be more or less liberal views on things like alcohol consumption - thinking of OTL temperance movements.
The other thing that comes to mind is it won't only be the Ottomans who want to show they can spin some saucy tales. Likely to see a fair number of European writers moving more into such areas or at least getting earlier and more widespread acceptance.
Steve
Glen
Moderator
It is true that the Victorian Age ITTL is replaced by the Second Elizabethan Age which is much more socially open and liberal, more a second flowering of The Enlightenment, though I wouldn't call it wanton. Note that the English translation is only twenty years earlier than OTL, though in public circulation and not through a private club.
I am glad you appreciate your ATL relative. He is more scholar than adventurer compared to Burton, and will restrict himself to the Subcontinent unlike Burton.
Glen
Moderator
Yes, though that open stance becomes more mature over time.
Maybe...
That is in my opinion an independent issue, and only time will tell how it will develop...
Yes, true, but that is of limited allohistorical interest, so not likely to be covered in this timeline....
Nice update, Glen! I too enjoy the fact that sexual attitudes seem much more healthy than OTL's Victorian uber-prudishness; granted it can't be that way forever, but at least it's not as extreme.
I have a question about the USA, incidentally; who would you say are its closest political allies? They sat the Global War out, although as you say they also provided aide for the UK and the DSA in terms of supplies and hardware. Does that mean they're in same camp as Britain and Southern America, or just on friendly terms at the time?
I have a question about the USA, incidentally; who would you say are its closest political allies? They sat the Global War out, although as you say they also provided aide for the UK and the DSA in terms of supplies and hardware. Does that mean they're in same camp as Britain and Southern America, or just on friendly terms at the time?
Glen
Moderator
Glad you approve.
America is seen as being allied with the West, and as a promised land of peace and prosperity, profiting from secure borders and a friendly neighbor.
So, does that mean the US is more like OTL Switzerland, except much bigger geographically.
An interesting little butterfly that would be caused by the Second Elizabethan age being relatively open, and lacking the conservative back-lash that OTL's Victorian Age had, would be the lack of symbols like the white wedding dress, and a lot of specific associations/meaning to types of flowers that evolved in the era as a result of the general up-tidiness.
Glen
Moderator
The wedding of the British Empress Elizabeth II in 1865 was covered with fervor by all the Western press, and especially those reporting on style. Prior to that time most wedding dresses were simply well made stylish affairs. However, Elizabeth chose a loose fitting royal blue gown that combined the more practical trend of clothes started in the mid 19th century with a whimsical medieval sensibility, like some Faerie Queen in Cerulean. It set the standards for wedding dresses for at least the next 50 years, and made blue the standard color for the bride (though with a wide range from sky blue to midnight blue being embraced by women throughout the Western World). It is a popular myth that the Empress Elizabeth chose blue to stand for loyalty and purity; she chose the color because she liked the dress.
In the Eastern World (other than the parts in the British Empire such as India and Imperial Japan) in the 19th century, the color red remained the traditional bridal color with the one exception of the United States of China, where most women chose to follow the new Western style, inspired by the Empress who had shown such warmth and interest in their new nation.
Western and Eastern Wedding Dress Styles
In the Eastern World (other than the parts in the British Empire such as India and Imperial Japan) in the 19th century, the color red remained the traditional bridal color with the one exception of the United States of China, where most women chose to follow the new Western style, inspired by the Empress who had shown such warmth and interest in their new nation.
Western and Eastern Wedding Dress Styles
Glen
Moderator
Yep, and in fact you have now inspired another fashion update. Thanks!
Not certain about the flowers thing - have to look into that, but my initial wikipedia foray suggests that the language of flowers predates the Victorian Age, though it will not be popularized as much hear obviously where people are much more likely to say what they mean rather than sending codes.
Looking good as ever, Glen.
I am always impressed with people who use a TL to do more than redraw borders. In your case, you're building a whole new world, changing culture, fashion, political theory and much more. This is much more difficult, but much more rounded and interesting.
Keep up the good work!
I am always impressed with people who use a TL to do more than redraw borders. In your case, you're building a whole new world, changing culture, fashion, political theory and much more. This is much more difficult, but much more rounded and interesting.
Keep up the good work!
Glen
Moderator
Looking good as ever, Glen.
I am always impressed with people who use a TL to do more than redraw borders. In your case, you're building a whole new world, changing culture, fashion, political theory and much more. This is much more difficult, but much more rounded and interesting.
Keep up the good work!
Thank you for the comments and support!