DBWI: Good Britain and France, Evil Germany, Italy, and Russia

[mlp]

The Japanese were instrumental in helping to liberate China and ensure the creation of a unified China, India and Indonesia, and note that the development of Pan-Asianism allowed for the gradual independence of Korea and the souring of UK-Japanese relations. Having the militarists in power could actually see the creation of an Anglo-French-Japanese alliance.

With that in mind, the Korean independence movement may become more militant and aggressive if we see a militarist Japan. Possibly even some assassinations and car explosions. Good thing it didn't, so we only have the demonstrations in OTL history.

 

[tigercat]

Will the Italians ever forgive the Germans for Taranto . I know Northern Italy had fallen to the French but the Neopolitan republic was neutral at the time .The commander of the Neopolitan Navy promised he'd never let the French use his fleet but the Germans launched operation Katapult nonetheless.

 

[Charles RB]

You want to butterfly this, gotta go right back to the Scramble for Africa. France and Britain both were democracies at the time and yet decided to expand their empires, and worse than before; we both made it clear democratic principles took a back seat to owning foreigners so we could profit off them. The imperial dick-waving of it leads us to the First World War and yeah, there's fools who say we'd have avoided National Imperalism if we'd won but come on. Look up the Asia Minor Agreement. Britain promised freedom to the Arabs and then quietly struck a deal with France to carve up Arabia. We were already going down that road.

Does anyone believe Trump's bluster when Russia or the Republic of Arabia report that "the greatest threat to the North American continent and the Western Hemisphere is the threat of a nuclear-armed United States of America..." Apparently Defense Minister Putin is warning about such threats on RTV,...

Ah, the Arabs don't actually believe that. They just go along with what the Russians say, and I'm not sure Putin actually believes a nuclear-armed USA is possible or if he just pretends to appease part of his base; they're desperate to prove the 'Russian century' isn't over and they won't have to learn Congo-dialect French.

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

Ah, the Arabs don't actually believe that. They just go along with what the Russians say, and I'm not sure Putin actually believes a nuclear-armed USA is possible or if he just pretends to appease part of his base; they're desperate to prove the 'Russian century' isn't over and they won't have to learn Congo-dialect French.

I wouldn't be so sure - Trump is mad enough to try building the bloody things in the face of world opinion. Hey, it's not like he's ever cared before.

Funny how things worked out, regarding up-and-coming countries. After the war - OK, it made sense for people to learn Russian or German or Japanese as a second language. But who'd have guessed Congo-dialect French or Malay, of all things?

 

[Charles RB]

I wouldn't be so sure - Trump is mad enough to try building the bloody things in the face of world opinion.

He's mad enough but he's got to actually form his new US, then get enough nuclear scientists to make it, then people to make the missile, and the uranium. Then he has to do it all without being spotted and bombed.

Funny how things worked out, regarding up-and-coming countries. After the war - OK, it made sense for people to learn Russian or German or Japanese as a second language. But who'd have guessed Congo-dialect French or Malay, of all things?

I dunno, the Congo has a lot of resources in it. I think it was always going to end up a great power. Malaysia though, I don't think even Malaysia saw that coming. The university programmes of the early 60s really paid off.

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

He's mad enough but he's got to actually form his new US, then get enough nuclear scientists to make it, then people to make the missile, and the uranium. Then he has to do it all without being spotted and bombed.

I suppose.

I dunno, the Congo has a lot of resources in it. I think it was always going to end up a great power. Malaysia though, I don't think even Malaysia saw that coming. The university programmes of the early 60s really paid off.

True. I mean, I doubt if it would have happened without the Greater East Asia Alliance and the development aid, but now... Yeah, Kuala Lumpur's the commercial hub of Asia. One wonders how long it'll last, of course.

 

[GeorgeUK]

Not to mention that it is not a good idea to praise National Imperialism nor its crazed leaders here in the Kingdom of Great Britain. We are not so distracted by trying to work out how to keep Finland in the Anglo* Zone, not that they seem to care much, that we won't notice.

As we have proven the true way to being a power in the world is to make really good cars and appliances and turn out machine like football teams to win World Cups.

Leave things like Mormon State to the Russians and Germans they like being the world's policemen



*stupid name for a currency the Pound was fine but hey people will always want to buy British goods so it was easy to sign up 10 other countries and then they let in Finland after they fiddled the books after that well there was a mess just waiting to happen.

Your mention of the World Cup reminded me of that incident in Clapton. The one where an antifascist kicked six bells out of a fan for "waving a symbol of Imperialism" (it was, in fact, the national flag). All the poor sod had been doing was celebrating our victory in the final.

 

[torten]

Your mention of the World Cup reminded me of that incident in Clapton. The one where an antifascist kicked six bells out of a fan for "waving a symbol of Imperialism" (it was, in fact, the national flag). All the poor sod had been doing was celebrating our victory in the final.

These so called AntiFascist scum should go and rot. Winston Churchill only meant to save the country from the treaty of Versailles, and save the Irish from their German backed puppet state.

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

These so called AntiFascist scum should go and rot. Winston Churchill only meant to save the country from the treaty of Versailles, and save the Irish from their German backed puppet state.

Yes...he did such a good job 'saving' it that even the Northern Unionists ended up repudiating Britain, they were so sickened by British atrocities...

Mind you, it did lead to one good thing. Before the invasion and the Rape of Dublin, Ireland was divided between Catholic and non-Catholic. After the invasion, Irish men and women of every creed were united in hating England... And, over time, that unity became a more wholesome one. These days, it doesn't matter a damn if you're Catholic or non-Catholic - hell, most of the country's atheist or agnostic anyway. And from being what some of your charming politicos called a 'priest-infested backwater', we became one of the more liberal countries of Western Europe by 1950.

We still don't like you lot, though...

 

[RodentRevolution]

countries of Western Europe by 1950.

We still don't like you lot, though...

Just keep on buying our cars and washing machines and televisions, now there's a good fellow

 

[Charles RB]

Your mention of the World Cup reminded me of that incident in Clapton. The one where an antifascist kicked six bells out of a fan for "waving a symbol of Imperialism" (it was, in fact, the national flag). All the poor sod had been doing was celebrating our victory in the final.

We really should've made a clean breast of it and created new flags after the war. I mean, I see why the restoration government kept them ("these are the nation's symbols and not Churchill's", as the speech went) but they're all compromised to hell now.

 

[torten]

Yes...he did such a good job 'saving' it that even the Northern Unionists ended up repudiating Britain, they were so sickened by British atrocities...

Mind you, it did lead to one good thing. Before the invasion and the Rape of Dublin, Ireland was divided between Catholic and non-Catholic. After the invasion, Irish men and women of every creed were united in hating England... And, over time, that unity became a more wholesome one. These days, it doesn't matter a damn if you're Catholic or non-Catholic - hell, most of the country's atheist or agnostic anyway. And from being what some of your charming politicos called a 'priest-infested backwater', we became one of the more liberal countries of Western Europe by 1950.

We still don't like you lot, though...

It still is a priest infested backwater. The Catholic church control the government, and they supress the Protestants in the north, who wait for the day of liberation. The Free Irish Army shows how popular the Liberation was. They raised six divisions who fought bravely in the American Crusade.

 

[Historyman 14]

It still is a priest infested backwater. The Catholic church control the government, and they supress the Protestants in the north, who wait for the day of liberation. The Free Irish Army shows how popular the Liberation was. They raised six divisions who fought bravely in the American Crusade.

And most of thous in the six divisions was either dead, capture, or fled to Canada by the time the Americans kick Britain and France out.

 

[GeorgeUK]

On a less argumentative note, how would this affect pop culture? I'm sure we're all familiar with the episode of Fawlty Towers with the obnoxious German tourist, as well as the well-known joke about British tourists getting up at the crack of dawn to bag all the poolside loungers.

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

On a less argumentative note, how would this affect pop culture? I'm sure we're all familiar with the episode of Fawlty Towers with the obnoxious German tourist, as well as the well-known joke about British tourists getting up at the crack of dawn to bag all the poolside loungers.

Well,Russian and German cinema probably wouldn't be the big sellers. Though who would be? Britain?

I shudder at that thought. OK, I like the deconstructionist anti-authoritarian turn that British literature and stuff (especially sci-fi. I used to read Dark Future comics all the time as a kid - full of dystopia and anti-monarchism) took in the 60s and 70s, when the 'Past-Hater' generation were doing their thing, but British cinema? Films that drag on for interminable hours with nothing happening?

OOC: I'm imagining that in the aftermath of the war, British pop-culture saw a huge rise in violent dystopian literature and comics - 2000AD and the 'Sevenpenny Nightmare' would be thought of as light reading here Catering to a generation who combined the disaffection of OTL with a hatred of previous generations for getting them into two losing wars.

 

[MusuMankata]

Will the Italians ever forgive the Germans for Taranto . I know Northern Italy had fallen to the French but the Neopolitan republic was neutral at the time .The commander of the Neopolitan Navy promised he'd never let the French use his fleet but the Germans launched operation Katapult nonetheless.

Taranto? Considered that it resulted in the death of Inigo Campioni, president of the Neopolitan Republic, whose name is stain upon my hometown's history and destined to be remembered with infamy; and considered that it killed more French personnel than Italian one, we kind of forgave them already.

Rather, we are more angry about the fact that we didn't get to have Corsica back. Better yet, all of it.

On a less argumentative note, how would this affect pop culture? I'm sure we're all familiar with the episode of Fawlty Towers with the obnoxious German tourist, as well as the well-known joke about British tourists getting up at the crack of dawn to bag all the poolside loungers.

Well, we wouldn't see as many "Spaghetti-eating surrender monkeys" jokes around, or see the French accent as the evil accent by antonomasia for sure.

Something of higher impact I could imagine would be less movies about the reconstruction of Ireland and England after the war, and the sights of general poverty in the population. Also, less peplum movies focused on the Roman conquest of Britain and the defeat of Boudicca's revolt.

 

[HIM Dogson]

Don't listen to Churchill apologists, they're just goblining, I'm sure Anthony will kick them soon. In any case, the next time I see Russians claiming they won the war I'm going to go insane. Seriously, we Germans bore the brunt of the fighting for the majority of the war!

 

[xie323]

Don't listen to Churchill apologists, they're just goblining, I'm sure Anthony will kick them soon. In any case, the next time I see Russians claiming they won the war I'm going to go insane. Seriously, we Germans bore the brunt of the fighting for the majority of the war!

The problem is that the leadership in Britain is obsessed with gaining "concessions" back from the Indians and the Irish and claimed the Falklands "rightfully belongs to the British". Not to mention the Prime Minister, Niall Ferguson, was also a member of the Anglo Heritage Textbook Reform Conference in the 1990s. He wants to popularity to repeal Article 6 of the reformed British Constitution.

You want to butterfly this, gotta go right back to the Scramble for Africa. France and Britain both were democracies at the time and yet decided to expand their empires, and worse than before; we both made it clear democratic principles took a back seat to owning foreigners so we could profit off them. The imperial dick-waving of it leads us to the First World War and yeah, there's fools who say we'd have avoided National Imperalism if we'd won but come on. Look up the Asia Minor Agreement. Britain promised freedom to the Arabs and then quietly struck a deal with France to carve up Arabia. We were already going down that road.

You'd also have to maybe discredit the eugenics movement too, that justified French NatPop Racial laws culminating in "The Catastrophe" and the Final Order. Alternatively had Napoleon or even the "Unify with Belgium movement" been discredited maybe it would bury notions of French "espacevital" that De Gaulle tried to invoke in his book.

Possibily a POD where the New Entente never forms could have maybe the Syndicalists actually succeeding in 1919, as ASB as that sounds, and establishing the Commune of France(Yes much like the Red Europa mod(ooc: TTL's Kaiserreich mod) for HOI2), or have "Georgian Democracy" reforms continue after death of George V.

The Red Triumvirate in America of Long, Foster and Reed was brutal, and it all led to the even worse Browder taking over but the United Soviet Republic of American did set aside all racial hatreds and condemn it as a product of capitalism and imperialism after the failure of the various hemispheric wars after the Mexican war that led to the Second America revolution.

 

[Charles RB]

On a less argumentative note, how would this affect pop culture?

Probably no Dark Future comics for a start, and who wants to live in that world? Comics in general will be incredibly different - no Lex Christian sorting out the post-war East End[1], no Comrade America punching out Churchil, none of the underground "Lord Snooty" strips, and more Tintin without Herge's execution.


--

[1] Actually the genesis of Dan Dare!

 

[Mr_ Bondoc]

One of the biggest problems for Latin America, in regards to Trump are the recent talks by President Marco Antonio Rubio's talks to have the Florida Alliance rejoin the United States of America. Also, Texas President Rick Perry has announced his intent to join the American ultra-nationalist movement. The scary thing is that this is all taking place during the current fighting in the Great Plains against the American Indian Movement (AIM) guerrillas,...