DBWI: Dogger Bank Incident is Ignored?

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by Doctor Evulz, Aug 25, 2013.

  1. Orville_third Banned

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    Would it have prevented the rise Orthodoxy, to say nothing of the Roerich Movement and the Rasputniks in the West?
     
  2. CaliBoy1990 Iconoclastic Liberal.

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    If you mean the rise of the Orthodox dictatorship in the Ukraine(and the one that followed in Belarus).....it wouldn't be impossible, but hard to pull off; the reason that they even succeeded in the first place was mainly because of the success of the Soviet Revolution, and the aborted attempt to create the Ukrainian Worker's Soviet Republic in 1920.

    The Rasputniks were largely a British & German phenomenon, and wouldn't have existed without Grisha Rasputin himself. Take him outta the picture and they'd be gone, too.

    As for the Orthodox people that briefly seized the south of Russia in 1916-20, that might not have happened either.

    BTW, if you're looking for a good alt-history novel of an ATL World War I, check out Harry Turtledove's "Short Love" stories: the POD is actually in June of 1904, and in America of all places, but a damn good read, if you can go thru all 10 of the books. Spoilers: World War I gets delayed 10 years, Woodrow Wilson doesn't win in 1920(and doesn't die in office), nor runs in 1912, Adolf Hitler survives an ATL version of the Vienna Cafe Putsch, and Stalin lives until 1953.....

    OOC: the aforementioned series is basically OTL with a few minor changes.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2013
  3. wcv215 Well-Known Member

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    If a communist revolt overthrows the tsar there is going to be something in the Ukraine. Germany isn't going to want a hostile and polar opposite power several times its size on its front door, and Russia isn't powerful enough to stop them from doing what they want. OTL the only time the Russian were able to threaten the Ujraine dictatorship, and its twin in Belarus was while they thought Germany was too busy fighting its naval war with Britain. Given the pounding the German army gave them thanks to technological advances the Russians missed out on while rebuilding following five years of civil war it can be assumed the Germans are going to be keeping an eye on them carefully.

    Eh, only to the point of Germany was where he started up his little cult. The fact it spread to Britain only once the Germans kicked him out you probably have a point here.
     
  4. Doctor Evulz Well-Known Member

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    The Soviet Union was hardly Communist even before the Second World War. I'd go so far as to say that far right groups dominated for the latter half of the Union's history, as they do in modern-day Russia. Royalists (inspired by Nicholas II's survival of the revolution) even had a decent following after the Union's defeat in World War II. Despite not being nearly as devastating as the First World War, it forced Russia to cede Belarus and the Ukraine, which as stated above, fell to Orthodox dictatorships. The Soviet Union was only ever restricted to Russia and the Caucasus in the first place. How else could a Georgian like Uncle Joe come to power?
     
  5. CaliBoy1990 Iconoclastic Liberal.

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    Well, that was true, but only up until WWII; Then the Ukrainians got curbstomped, and the Western Tsar, as they called him, found himself staring down the barrel of Soviet rifles by the end of Oct. 1944. And then they spent the better half of 4 decades as a Soviet satellite, as did Belarus.

    OOC: I'm sorry but I don't think far-right groups would even be *allowed* in the U.S.S.R., let alone get the chance to become dominant. Also, the Russian Empire didn't survive the war, or the Revolution, therefore, it stands that the USSR almost certainly would have controlled Siberia, and likely Kazakhstan with it, as well, if they took most of European Russia. Furthermore, the Ukraine was independent *before* World War II.
     
  6. Doctor Evulz Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry, but that sounds as implausible as almost every other book that Turtledove guy wrote. I had to look up Adolf Hitler and he couldn't have gotten any political power in Austria-Hungary. His "Austrian Workers' Party" never got more than a thousand members at its peak, despite the Deep Depression happening. Even then, that was several years before he got involved. There is NO way Hitler could have taken over that dying party and seized power. His little coup attempt in Vienna proved that.

    Also, the World War happened when it did for a reason. If an analogue war doesn't happen within five years of that time, it probably wouldn't happen at all.
     
  7. Doctor Evulz Well-Known Member

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    OOC: This is an alternate USSR. Note that they rose only after the Soviets' defeat in World War II. If people think that communism led to their defeat, a far right leader could take control of the government. 'Soviet' means 'council' after all, not necessarily a communist one, so a Soviet Union could still exist.
     
  8. CaliBoy1990 Iconoclastic Liberal.

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    OOC: Also,

    It's a lot more plausible than you'd think. I assume you haven't read all 10 books. I have, and it is *quite* plausible.....certainly much more so than Clive Disraeli's "Columbian Empire", which seems to be quite adored by a lot of the same people complaining about Turtledove.
     
  9. wcv215 Well-Known Member

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    Not really. Sure the Russian claimed to have control over them, but it didn't stop the Ukraine from doing whatever it wanted when the Germans turned their attention back to the East in '46 and the war ended. The only reason it was even nominally a Spviet state was because Germany was too tired from fighting the British and Turks since '36 to go in and give them another bloody nose.

    I've always questioned this whole "Second World War" business that people like to mention. It was more like a series of small wars that tend to get conflated. You had Germany at war with the Russians, the British and the Turks. The British at war with Germany and Japan. Japan at war with Britain, China, and the United States. The United States at war with only Japan. ThevTurks at war with Austria-Hungary and Germany, etc. Austria, Japan, the United States, China, and Russia never acted outside their respective theater and weren't at war with most of the other major players. Sure casualties were three times those of the World War, but it was also spread out over almost ten years versus the three of the World War.
     
  10. Doctor Evulz Well-Known Member

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    I couldn't get past the first. I don't know, maybe it is plausible, but I don't see how.
     
  11. CaliBoy1990 Iconoclastic Liberal.

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    OOC: What? Sorry, but this explanation doesn't make sense.

    IC: Nope,the second World War was from 1938-45(partisan fighting DID continue until '46, though, but the Germans lost. You sure you aren't reading from Stirling?). Apparently you've been reading the wrong history books. :confused:

    Admittedly, the first one was a bit flawed in some respects. All the others are pretty good overall, though.

    My main gripe with the "Columbian Empire" was that it got away with a lot more actual skirting of plausibility simply because it was edgy at the time(1991-95), than Harry T. did.....but that's another story.
     
  12. Doctor Evulz Well-Known Member

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    Some call it the Second World War, some call it the Wars of 1938. The Americans call it the Patriotic War, the British call it the German Affair. Really, every nation has its own personal name for it.
     
  13. CaliBoy1990 Iconoclastic Liberal.

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    OOC: I don't think the U.S. would call it the "Patriotic War". Russia seems far more plausible, TBH.

    IC: Actually, that was the Russians who called it the Patriotic War. We Americans just call it WWII.
     
  14. Doctor Evulz Well-Known Member

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    I'll concede that with Turtledove, the later books in the series are always more plausible and less arbitarily 'convergent' than the first few.
     
  15. CaliBoy1990 Iconoclastic Liberal.

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    True. And to Disraeli's credit, he actually didn't converge too much; but unfortunately, his problem was that he *abused* the butterflies at times and sometimes tried to use that as an excuse for some of the more questionable aspects of the canon, when criticized. Turtledove did a better job explaining *his* methods, TBH.

    Anyhow....
     
  16. Doctor Evulz Well-Known Member

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    Really? I've heard some of the more... well... "conservative" folk call it that. Like in President Olsen's infamous "Cold War Turns Hot" speech after the Aleutian Islands Incident. Thank God the Germans were able to mediate and prevent another major war.
     
  17. CaliBoy1990 Iconoclastic Liberal.

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    IC: Some do, yeah, but it's not the official name. As for Mr. Olsen, he was probably the greatest politico to ever come out of Minnesota.....and Chancellor Goldmann(Social Democrats) deserves credit as well. :D
     
  18. Axeman Insufferable Contrarian

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    Because the combatants again were de-facto alligned into 2 camps and fighting each other.

    The British were not officially at war with Austria-Hungary, but they just blockaded that Adriatic and sunk 3 Austrian dreadnaughts when they tried to make a dash for Salonika through the blockade to Bulgarian Waters. It was just diplomatic ease and financial reasons " No Mr. Banker, we are only at war with 1 country, nevermind the fact that all that countries allies shoot at us and won't trade with us, loan please " .

    Also in America I've heard the terms " World War II, Patriotic War, and The Golden Gate War " Back to avenge the Golden Gate by '48 " .
     
  19. Doctor Evulz Well-Known Member

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    My grandfather was visiting San Francisco when the bomb on the Golden Gate Bridge went off. He hasn't trusted a single Asian person since. If Japan was trying to intimidate us, it backfired horribly.
     
  20. Doctor Evulz Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, I dislike Olsen and the surge of conservative Democrats he helped create. Goldmann's role was far more instrumental. Olsen just knew how to take all the credit.