Could anybody think of any WI scenarios re how recipes would've developed, had certain foodstuffs not been accepted and adopted into the national cuisines of particular countries ? Say, if Italy hadn't been exposed to Chinese noodles in order to influence the development of pasta in all its varieties (spaghetti, ravioli, tortellini, etc) ? Or if the Irish hadn't adopted the potato as their national staple after it was introduced from South America ?
Cuisine WI scenarios
- Thread starter Melvin Loh
- Start date
Redbeard
Banned
...or what if Hamburg (or Frankfurt) had been located where Berlin is, what would JFK had said in his famous speech to the citizens of said city?
Ich bin ein.......
...or what if the Vikings had been more sucessful in consolidating their empires, then 1st class cuisine would have been based on three principples: 1: barley flower porridge made on water, 2: setting fire to a dead pig and 3: eating anything from a sheep! I suddenly realise that I may have discovered the real reason for why the vikings so readily went native when having conquerred new territory!
...or what if Marco Polo hadn't brought home noodles from China, but Hot Dogs? I guess Lassie movies would be of a rather different character?
...or what if there had been responsible authorities when potaoes were taken across the pond. They would of course instantly have forbidden anybody to eat anything from such a poisonous plant as the potatoplant (and tomatoes). Then the Irish would never have become so many, they wouldn't have starved and not have gone to America, and the American language would sound much more posh. That again would have ruined the OTL careers of John Ford and John Wayne...
Regards
Steffen Redbeard
Ich bin ein.......
...or what if the Vikings had been more sucessful in consolidating their empires, then 1st class cuisine would have been based on three principples: 1: barley flower porridge made on water, 2: setting fire to a dead pig and 3: eating anything from a sheep! I suddenly realise that I may have discovered the real reason for why the vikings so readily went native when having conquerred new territory!
...or what if Marco Polo hadn't brought home noodles from China, but Hot Dogs? I guess Lassie movies would be of a rather different character?
...or what if there had been responsible authorities when potaoes were taken across the pond. They would of course instantly have forbidden anybody to eat anything from such a poisonous plant as the potatoplant (and tomatoes). Then the Irish would never have become so many, they wouldn't have starved and not have gone to America, and the American language would sound much more posh. That again would have ruined the OTL careers of John Ford and John Wayne...
Regards
Steffen Redbeard
Here are a few, taken from the Crazy Days ATL I'm working on:
-The Nationalists win the Chinese Civil War. China trades with the West and a real market for Chinese Food develops during the 1950's. Japan picks up on this Asian-food market trend and Asian cuisine is popularized by the 1960's.
-India experiences a Communist Revolution and millions of refugees flood the US, UK, and other areas, thus making Indian food much more widely available and popular in American, European, and Asian cities.
-Mussolini becomes a Communist instead of a Fascist. The average North African's (and Mediterranean person's) meals consist of Italian food/rations during much of the 20th century. Also Italian refugees make Italian food very common in America, non-Communist European states, etc.
-The Nationalists win the Chinese Civil War. China trades with the West and a real market for Chinese Food develops during the 1950's. Japan picks up on this Asian-food market trend and Asian cuisine is popularized by the 1960's.
-India experiences a Communist Revolution and millions of refugees flood the US, UK, and other areas, thus making Indian food much more widely available and popular in American, European, and Asian cities.
-Mussolini becomes a Communist instead of a Fascist. The average North African's (and Mediterranean person's) meals consist of Italian food/rations during much of the 20th century. Also Italian refugees make Italian food very common in America, non-Communist European states, etc.
Why didn't I think of that question...
Here's a few favourites:
- Petrine Christianity wins out. If Christianity still conquers Europe, that basically means kosher for everyone (well, not really, but many of the dietary restrictions of Jewish tradition would still apply through much of Europe.) I could certainly not see either the widespread use of pork nor the free mingling of dairy and meat cookery, both of which are mainstays of medieval (and modern) European cuisine. Europe (and by extension its colonies) would eat a lot more like the Graeco-Romans, with plenty of fish, many 'neutral' veggie dishes, oil rather than butter, and much leaner meat. That might not be altogether bad...
- The wheat frontier stays south. Wheat and wheat bread became a status symbol in northern Europe in the course of the early middle ages, leading to the use of much prime land for low-yield wheat rather than hardy, high-yield rye and oats. The 'bread dependency culture' of the later middle ages might not materialise, and with better land utilisation, many of the persistent local and regional famines could be avoided. Of course, it would also mean more people eating porridge and knackebrod, but that's healthy (and anyway, good knacke is a real treat). A northern diet based on buckwheat porridge, rye bread and oatcakes (as oppoased to the southern wheat bread) remains common to this day. Germans eat breakfast porridge rather than breadrolls. As an aside, no breadcrumbs used for thickening sauces means either an earlier development of butter-flour´thickener or the increasing use of boiled-down fruit sauces.
- Reduced Germanic influence in late antiquity. Germanic status foods were meat, mead, and beer. The central role of meat, and much of it, top this day retains its position in the European diet. By contrast, the diet of the Romans (especially the refined eating of the upper classes) had developed a marked tendency towards vegetarianism, and a strong appreciation of expensive fish inherited from Greece. If this had prevailed, Europe's seas might be emptier yet, and her pastures still forests.
- Conversely, with stronger Germanic influence and, maybe, no Lenten fast, fish is almost completely removed from the table and to this day remains poor man's fare. That basically removes the raison d'etre of an entire Canadian province
- no beet sugar processing until WWI or WWII. This might taint beet sugar with the association of 'ersatz wartime food' rather than present it as 'a breakthrough of modern science' as was done in the 19th century. Central Europe still imports most of its sugar from Latin America and Africa, adding to the region's slightly greater prosperity. Cane sugar shortage became a serious issue in many Communist states in the 80s.
- No humoral pathology. This would have huge repercussions for European culture (especially if we posit the Empiricist school of medicine won out instead), but for foods this would lead mostly away from certain ideas that define European cuisine to this day. Firstly, a distrust of powerful flavours would not develop. Europe is almost unique in the relative blandness of its upper-class cuisine. Compare the liberal use of spices and sweeteners in Arab, Chinese, Thai, Indian or South American cookery. That is because the medical opinion of centuries militated against imbalances. Lower-class cuisine (and those areas mercifuilly untouched by the authoritry of those doctors) retained a fuller appreciation of the glories of sorrel, vinegar, garlic and onion. Imagine a Europe where plentiful garlic, salads, strong marinades and fiery sauces held uncontested sway. The same goes for raw fruit and vegetables - dangerous, according to the professionals.
- This comes closer to ASB, but what if (for some reason) pigs were not domesticable? Without this easy, handy source of animal protein, many parts of the world would suffer real shortage.
- An earlier introduction of maize and potatoes into Europe could have averted several hunger crises - including, possibly, that of the 1780s. Conversely, a later one might make the 'hungry 40s' much hungrier. Industrialisation might benefit from workers being literally starved into submission, or the whole edifice of bourgeois society could come crashing down...
- If the South won the Civil War (yeah, couldn't resist), would the great herds of Texas still be shipped to the stockyards of Chicago? Would beef become a national staple at a later date? Or at all? Would the resentful CSA export its bully beef tins from vast slaughterhouses on the Gulf Coast to Britain, leaving the US dependent on the beef of Minnesota and imports from Argentina?
- Distilled alcohol stays a medical preparation. The role of hard liquor in the pacification and mobilisation of Europe's underclass should not be underestimated (the large-scale production of brandy and gin in the 1400s created what can best be described as a drug crisis, complete with attendant petty crime, prostitution, and human misery). Until the late 19th and 20th centuries, millions of poor found solace in a shot of hard stuff or three. I am also convinced that liquor played a role in the mad courage of Europe's conquerors abroad, and we don't need to mention the effect its introduction had on native populations throughout the world.
- Finally; what if there was a large, edible species of insect grub in Europe? Oh, I think we had that already...
Here's a few favourites:
- Petrine Christianity wins out. If Christianity still conquers Europe, that basically means kosher for everyone (well, not really, but many of the dietary restrictions of Jewish tradition would still apply through much of Europe.) I could certainly not see either the widespread use of pork nor the free mingling of dairy and meat cookery, both of which are mainstays of medieval (and modern) European cuisine. Europe (and by extension its colonies) would eat a lot more like the Graeco-Romans, with plenty of fish, many 'neutral' veggie dishes, oil rather than butter, and much leaner meat. That might not be altogether bad...
- The wheat frontier stays south. Wheat and wheat bread became a status symbol in northern Europe in the course of the early middle ages, leading to the use of much prime land for low-yield wheat rather than hardy, high-yield rye and oats. The 'bread dependency culture' of the later middle ages might not materialise, and with better land utilisation, many of the persistent local and regional famines could be avoided. Of course, it would also mean more people eating porridge and knackebrod, but that's healthy (and anyway, good knacke is a real treat). A northern diet based on buckwheat porridge, rye bread and oatcakes (as oppoased to the southern wheat bread) remains common to this day. Germans eat breakfast porridge rather than breadrolls. As an aside, no breadcrumbs used for thickening sauces means either an earlier development of butter-flour´thickener or the increasing use of boiled-down fruit sauces.
- Reduced Germanic influence in late antiquity. Germanic status foods were meat, mead, and beer. The central role of meat, and much of it, top this day retains its position in the European diet. By contrast, the diet of the Romans (especially the refined eating of the upper classes) had developed a marked tendency towards vegetarianism, and a strong appreciation of expensive fish inherited from Greece. If this had prevailed, Europe's seas might be emptier yet, and her pastures still forests.
- Conversely, with stronger Germanic influence and, maybe, no Lenten fast, fish is almost completely removed from the table and to this day remains poor man's fare. That basically removes the raison d'etre of an entire Canadian province
- no beet sugar processing until WWI or WWII. This might taint beet sugar with the association of 'ersatz wartime food' rather than present it as 'a breakthrough of modern science' as was done in the 19th century. Central Europe still imports most of its sugar from Latin America and Africa, adding to the region's slightly greater prosperity. Cane sugar shortage became a serious issue in many Communist states in the 80s.
- No humoral pathology. This would have huge repercussions for European culture (especially if we posit the Empiricist school of medicine won out instead), but for foods this would lead mostly away from certain ideas that define European cuisine to this day. Firstly, a distrust of powerful flavours would not develop. Europe is almost unique in the relative blandness of its upper-class cuisine. Compare the liberal use of spices and sweeteners in Arab, Chinese, Thai, Indian or South American cookery. That is because the medical opinion of centuries militated against imbalances. Lower-class cuisine (and those areas mercifuilly untouched by the authoritry of those doctors) retained a fuller appreciation of the glories of sorrel, vinegar, garlic and onion. Imagine a Europe where plentiful garlic, salads, strong marinades and fiery sauces held uncontested sway. The same goes for raw fruit and vegetables - dangerous, according to the professionals.
- This comes closer to ASB, but what if (for some reason) pigs were not domesticable? Without this easy, handy source of animal protein, many parts of the world would suffer real shortage.
- An earlier introduction of maize and potatoes into Europe could have averted several hunger crises - including, possibly, that of the 1780s. Conversely, a later one might make the 'hungry 40s' much hungrier. Industrialisation might benefit from workers being literally starved into submission, or the whole edifice of bourgeois society could come crashing down...
- If the South won the Civil War (yeah, couldn't resist), would the great herds of Texas still be shipped to the stockyards of Chicago? Would beef become a national staple at a later date? Or at all? Would the resentful CSA export its bully beef tins from vast slaughterhouses on the Gulf Coast to Britain, leaving the US dependent on the beef of Minnesota and imports from Argentina?
- Distilled alcohol stays a medical preparation. The role of hard liquor in the pacification and mobilisation of Europe's underclass should not be underestimated (the large-scale production of brandy and gin in the 1400s created what can best be described as a drug crisis, complete with attendant petty crime, prostitution, and human misery). Until the late 19th and 20th centuries, millions of poor found solace in a shot of hard stuff or three. I am also convinced that liquor played a role in the mad courage of Europe's conquerors abroad, and we don't need to mention the effect its introduction had on native populations throughout the world.
- Finally; what if there was a large, edible species of insect grub in Europe? Oh, I think we had that already...
Some of these may not be too likely, but ...
- The Russians beat the Ottoman Empire much worse than in OTL in the late 1870s. Russia annexes Istanbul and her client state of Bulgaria takes most of the rest of former Ottoman territory in the Balkans. For one reason or another, no other powers move to stop this. Most of the Islamic population is either driven out at the point of a gun or discriminated against so badly that they leave by the end of the 19th century. Many of these Balkan Muslims immigrate to the USA. Among other things, they introduce new styles of food that eventually enter the US mainstream along with other ethnic foods like Italian and Chinese.
- In the late 17th century, a strange "wheat blight" sweeps through much of Europe, ruining wheat crops. It also effects many other grain crops to a lesser degree. In a desperate effort to find some new staple crop, maize and potatos from the Americas are adopted throughout much of Europe. Tomatos and squash are also adopted as food crops to a considerable degree. This change in staple crops will change the cuisine of many parts of Europe considerably.
- Sugar cane reaches the Mediterranean world in Roman times instead of much later. The Roman upper classes develop a voracious "sweet tooth", which leads to a huge rise in cavities and rotten teeth but also affects many other aspects of their diet. Large sugar-growing latifundia are set up in the more well-watered areas of the Mediterranean, and sugar becomes affordable to the middle classes as well, at least as an occasional treat. Just to make things more interesting, say that coffee and/or tea are discovered earlier and also manage to reach the Mediterranean in Roman times.
- The Russians beat the Ottoman Empire much worse than in OTL in the late 1870s. Russia annexes Istanbul and her client state of Bulgaria takes most of the rest of former Ottoman territory in the Balkans. For one reason or another, no other powers move to stop this. Most of the Islamic population is either driven out at the point of a gun or discriminated against so badly that they leave by the end of the 19th century. Many of these Balkan Muslims immigrate to the USA. Among other things, they introduce new styles of food that eventually enter the US mainstream along with other ethnic foods like Italian and Chinese.
- In the late 17th century, a strange "wheat blight" sweeps through much of Europe, ruining wheat crops. It also effects many other grain crops to a lesser degree. In a desperate effort to find some new staple crop, maize and potatos from the Americas are adopted throughout much of Europe. Tomatos and squash are also adopted as food crops to a considerable degree. This change in staple crops will change the cuisine of many parts of Europe considerably.
- Sugar cane reaches the Mediterranean world in Roman times instead of much later. The Roman upper classes develop a voracious "sweet tooth", which leads to a huge rise in cavities and rotten teeth but also affects many other aspects of their diet. Large sugar-growing latifundia are set up in the more well-watered areas of the Mediterranean, and sugar becomes affordable to the middle classes as well, at least as an occasional treat. Just to make things more interesting, say that coffee and/or tea are discovered earlier and also manage to reach the Mediterranean in Roman times.