Confederate Navy

Greatest alternate History country

  • Confederate States of America

    Votes: 29 50.9%

  • Nazi Germany

    Votes: 9 15.8%

  • Holy Roman Empire

    Votes: 10 17.5%

  • Draka Empire

    Votes: 9 15.8%
  • Total voters
    57

David S Poepoe

Banned
"Could there be a Confederate/German alliance by WW 1? If so how would the Confederacy contribute to Germany in WW 1 such as troops or weapons or thier navy? If WW 1 went the same way what limatations would be put on Germany and the Confederacy as of a treaty?"

There could be a Confederate/German Alliance, but thats too Turtledovian I think to consider realist, without other modifications to the TL. First off, (why does it always appear that I'm repeating myself) the Confederates will have to transport any troops or weapons past the Anglo-French blockade. They will be stopped. The Allies are not going to permit supplies to reach Germany. If the Confederacy contributed their navy then they will be at war with the Allies. Since its unlikely that the Confederate Navy will be any sort of threat to the Royal Navy, I don't see the Confederates being able to do much of anything.

If the Confederacy had entered the war upon Germany's side, and the war gone the same then one would expect the peace treaty to be just as harst as in OTL. With the United States involved, probably from whenever the South declared war, its likely that the South will experience territorial loss also.

"The cruisers ordered would be delivered - other nations only seized the ones they seized OTL because the CSA was no longer either willing to pay or a good gamble."

I was thinking of the Laird Rams when I wrote this, which were seized and bought by the Royal Navy to prevent any diplomatic problems.

I would think, much like modernizing Japan, that by the 1910s the Confederacy would have the infrastructure and industrial capability to build its own ships, or order parts aboard and assembly them at home.

The Confederate Navy of the 1890s, may be, a few coastal battleships and predominately torpedo boats. Armoured cruisers will be what is used to show the flag in foreign ports. The rise of the Jeune Ecole school of thought played havock in all the navy's of the world, but I think the Confederate Navy would closely mirror the United States'.
 

Straha

Banned
with the loss of the CSA expect america to embrace progress to the point whee technologyi s encouraged. The first tanks are likely to be union inventions. If the CSA tries anytihng funny expect blitzkrieg to be demonstrated in 1918 and by union tanks rushing south. Expect the republic of liberatia(a black nation),seqoyah(olkahoma tribes),Texas,Mexico Norte(northern mexico),Cuba,Puerto Rico,congaree(another lback republic carved out of the northern CSA). The rump CSA would recieve sometihng comparable to the morganthau plan but worse as white confederates are forced to work as slave labor. The rump nation would be called New Liberia.
 

ConfederateFly

I don't agree. I think the Confederacy will invent the tank first because they were innovaters in technology in OTL , but didn't have the supplies. I think they will only lose their territories outside the continetal C.S.A. They willstill have the Mexican States, they will just lose Cuba, Puerto Rico, Phillipines, thier African Colony Angola, and thier 2 ports 1 in China and 1 in Japan.
 

David S Poepoe

Banned
SurfNTurfStraha said:
with the loss of the CSA expect america to embrace progress to the point whee technologyi s encouraged. The first tanks are likely to be union inventions. If the CSA tries anytihng funny expect blitzkrieg to be demonstrated in 1918 and by union tanks rushing south. Expect the republic of liberatia(a black nation),seqoyah(olkahoma tribes),Texas,Mexico Norte(northern mexico),Cuba,Puerto Rico,congaree(another lback republic carved out of the northern CSA). The rump CSA would recieve sometihng comparable to the morganthau plan but worse as white confederates are forced to work as slave labor. The rump nation would be called New Liberia.
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Unless the CSA was occupied there wouldn't be any white confederates forced into slave labor. I also doubt there would be any "rump nations" but full scale annexation of territory by the United States. Depending on how advanced the CSA is it probably won't be too much for something like the Morganthau Plan to be enacted. At worst there will be territory administered as a League of Nations Mandate by the United States, then eventually statehood/readmission.
 

Straha

Banned
in that TL with a CSA joining the gemrnas there has to be osme resentment maybe a lost war agaisnt the CSA i nthe 80-'s. I neversaid it was plausible
 

ConfederateFly

In the TL I was thinking of the British and French boycott Confederate cotton, so the Germans pick up the slack and buy Confederate Cotton and the Confederates start buying the heavy siege Krupp guns the Germans were using.
 

David S Poepoe

Banned
ConfederateFly said:
I don't agree. I think the Confederacy will invent the tank first because they were innovaters in technology in OTL , but didn't have the supplies. I think they will only lose their territories outside the continetal C.S.A. They willstill have the Mexican States, they will just lose Cuba, Puerto Rico, Phillipines, thier African Colony Angola, and thier 2 ports 1 in China and 1 in Japan.
Click to expand...

I agree with Straha the tank, most likely will be developed by the Union. I'm saying this strictly with consideration that the Union was just as innovative than the South, it has a far larger industrial base and a economy that will continue to promote technological development. I don't see the Confederacy maintaining any advantage because of the basic nature of the society. I don't expect the Confederacy to be able to last any sort of long war over two years.

Regarding their war losses:

1. They aren't going to have a port in Japan to lose to begin with.

2. They aren't going to have a port in China to lose to begin with.

3. They most likely won't have the Philippines - how are they getting it?

4. There is no way the British or French are going to permit the Confederacy to receive any African territory in order to promote the slave trade. They'll sink Confederate slave traders first and even would forcibly stop the transshipment of slaves also.
 

Straha

Banned
I justl ike the idea of the 1918 america unleashign a storm of tanks

what did you think about my idea of blitzkrieg?
 

ConfederateFly

They get the port in China because they are part of the force putting down the boxer rebellion. They recieve the Phillipines the same way the U.S. recievied it in OTL. They have a Pacific port at Guyamas after they had purchased the Northern Mexican States of Baja California, Sonora, Chiuhuhua, Tampulias, Neuvo Leon, and Coahulias.
 

David S Poepoe

Banned
SurfNTurfStraha said:
what did you think about my idea of blitzkrieg?
Click to expand...

Too Turtledovian for my taste. While certainly never to be known by any German phrase, I think it would develop more on the transmississippian front where the terrain it better. I suspect any front along the Ohio River or the Potomac would see the tanks advancing with troops.
 

David S Poepoe

Banned
ConfederateFly said:
They get the port in China because they are part of the force putting down the boxer rebellion. They recieve the Phillipines the same way the U.S. recievied it in OTL. They have a Pacific port at Guyamas after they had purchased the Northern Mexican States of Baja California, Sonora, Chiuhuhua, Tampulias, Neuvo Leon, and Coahulias.
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There was no great carving up of China following the Boxer Rebellion, so if the Confederacy gets a port so would the US.

I doubt they would get the Philippines it is entirely outside their own backyard. You must be suggesting two Confederate-Spanish Wars since theres no way they would get it in the 1870s. The Confederacy doesn't have the capability to war a long distance war like that, and there's no way they can suggest it, let alone receive it from the Spanish at the peace table. They aren't threatening it - besides the Confederacy would have such a hard to winning against the Spanish it would need some time to recouperate.
 

Straha

Banned
Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesus christ! WTF is the CSA doing with the phillipines and an afircan colony!?
 

ConfederateFly

If you put it that way here we go!!!! Why did the U.S. get the Phillipines, that is the same way the C.S.A. and they try to get an African colony because in the TL they stiil have the Slave Trade but very secretly they even trick the U.S. nad G.B. by sending 2 warships to patrol the coast as part of the no-slave trade patrol.
 

David S Poepoe

Banned
ConfederateFly said:
If you put it that way here we go!!!! Why did the U.S. get the Phillipines, that is the same way the C.S.A. and they try to get an African colony because in the TL they stiil have the Slave Trade but very secretly they even trick the U.S. nad G.B. by sending 2 warships to patrol the coast as part of the no-slave trade patrol.
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Trying to be realistic, no wishful dreaming, etc.

1. The Slave Trade is not going to be permitted to be renewed. The likes of William Gladstone will see to that. It doesn't matter if there are two Confederate Warships or what, its fairly easy to figure out if the slave trade has been reestablished. Don't try hoodwinking the US or Great Britain, they'll come down like bricks on the Confederacy.

2. The US won the Philippines since it had the military capability to do so while fighting a war in the Caribbean, the Confederacy doesn't. It has limited capabilities in 1860s and won't be anywhere near to accomplishing anything in 1880. You have an extremely exagerated, delusional view of the Confederacy's capabities as an agrarian country.
 
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