Chaos TL: A world without Genghis Khan's conquests (finished!)
- Thread starter Max Sinister
- Start date
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- genghiskhan
Constantinople
Banned
So, Rome was taked by the muslims!? When did this happen? Where did the Papacy go?
In the second half of 15th century. The Pope returned to his lands in Avignon.
I read all the TL some days ago and I can say that this is one of the best TL in this forum. Congratulations Max.
6.5 East Asia 1450-1500
Max Sinister
Banned
East Asia 1450-1500
@Keenir, Tocomocho, HelloLegend, Darkest: Thank you all, folks!
@Keenir: I didn't make a specific list, and they're not that well thought out... later maybe.
Short addition for the last entry about Eastern Europe:
1500: Settlements in Novorossiya as far as Ob and Irtysh rivers.
And now, East Asia 1450-1500:
1451 (3148, Yin Metal Sheep): Tibet joins the Chinese sphere of influence.
1452-56 (3149, Yang Water Monkey / 3153, Yang Fire Rat): A Chinese treasure fleet sails up the Red Sea, sends a delegation to Egypt. On their return, they also spread tales about the Christian countries.
1457 (3154, Yin Fire Ox): A crisis at the court of the ninth Hong emperor is solved in a pleasing way (see story).
1459: Sultanate of Sulu founded on the Philippines.
1464 (3161, Yang Wood Monkey): Arabs in the city of Taiz, Hejaz, assault the crew of a Chinese ship when they went on land. Although the authorities don't want to anger off the strong Chinese fleet, things become complicated when the assaulters can't be catched, but demand ransom for the crew. The Chinese pay the money, but after the captured crew is returned, they demand from the Seljuk authorities that they punish the criminals, or at the very least return the money. After a demonstration of their cannons' power, the sherif gives in. Some henchmen are actually captured, but their leader stays hidden. The Chinese leave, but many Arabs aren't happy about his humiliation.
1466 (3163, Yang Fire Dog): News of the assault spread to the court, who decided to send another fleet of cannon-stocked ships, which reaches Arabia now. The Chinese approach the Omanis (with whom they have more and better contacts), win them as allies against the Hejaz Arabs.
1474 (3171, Yang Wood Horse): Thai ask Hong emperor to solve a struggle for succession, which he does. This is the precedent for extending Chinese influence in Ayutthaya.
1483 (3180, Yin Water Rabbit): War between the Seljuks and the Hong breaks out, which distracts the Seljuks somewhat from defeating Hungary. Battles in the Red Sea, Omanis make incursions into Hejaz.
Late 1480s: Another uprising against Chinese by Vietnamese, which is suppressed. Annam practically becomes a Chinese province.
1487 (3184, Yin Fire Sheep): Seljuk-Hong war ends with a peace. The Seljuks will send a regular tribute/gift to the Hong emperor, who'll return the favor. Since this is a generous peace, the Seljuks accept it. Arabs start trading with China, bringing glassworks, plants from the Middle East, like coffee, qat and hashish, to China.
1495: Lan Xang (Laos) starts introducing Confucianism.
~1500: Russian merchants make first contact with Chinese traders.
Read [post=661641]how the amentioned crisis was solved[/post].
@Keenir, Tocomocho, HelloLegend, Darkest: Thank you all, folks!
@Keenir: I didn't make a specific list, and they're not that well thought out... later maybe.
Short addition for the last entry about Eastern Europe:
1500: Settlements in Novorossiya as far as Ob and Irtysh rivers.
And now, East Asia 1450-1500:
1451 (3148, Yin Metal Sheep): Tibet joins the Chinese sphere of influence.
1452-56 (3149, Yang Water Monkey / 3153, Yang Fire Rat): A Chinese treasure fleet sails up the Red Sea, sends a delegation to Egypt. On their return, they also spread tales about the Christian countries.
1457 (3154, Yin Fire Ox): A crisis at the court of the ninth Hong emperor is solved in a pleasing way (see story).
1459: Sultanate of Sulu founded on the Philippines.
1464 (3161, Yang Wood Monkey): Arabs in the city of Taiz, Hejaz, assault the crew of a Chinese ship when they went on land. Although the authorities don't want to anger off the strong Chinese fleet, things become complicated when the assaulters can't be catched, but demand ransom for the crew. The Chinese pay the money, but after the captured crew is returned, they demand from the Seljuk authorities that they punish the criminals, or at the very least return the money. After a demonstration of their cannons' power, the sherif gives in. Some henchmen are actually captured, but their leader stays hidden. The Chinese leave, but many Arabs aren't happy about his humiliation.
1466 (3163, Yang Fire Dog): News of the assault spread to the court, who decided to send another fleet of cannon-stocked ships, which reaches Arabia now. The Chinese approach the Omanis (with whom they have more and better contacts), win them as allies against the Hejaz Arabs.
1474 (3171, Yang Wood Horse): Thai ask Hong emperor to solve a struggle for succession, which he does. This is the precedent for extending Chinese influence in Ayutthaya.
1483 (3180, Yin Water Rabbit): War between the Seljuks and the Hong breaks out, which distracts the Seljuks somewhat from defeating Hungary. Battles in the Red Sea, Omanis make incursions into Hejaz.
Late 1480s: Another uprising against Chinese by Vietnamese, which is suppressed. Annam practically becomes a Chinese province.
1487 (3184, Yin Fire Sheep): Seljuk-Hong war ends with a peace. The Seljuks will send a regular tribute/gift to the Hong emperor, who'll return the favor. Since this is a generous peace, the Seljuks accept it. Arabs start trading with China, bringing glassworks, plants from the Middle East, like coffee, qat and hashish, to China.
1495: Lan Xang (Laos) starts introducing Confucianism.
~1500: Russian merchants make first contact with Chinese traders.
Read [post=661641]how the amentioned crisis was solved[/post].
6.6 15th century: Science, summary and a MAP!
Max Sinister
Banned
15th century: Science, summary and a MAP!
Retcon:
~1340: Double-entry bookkeeping invented in Europe
1384: In Szechuan, a young official visiting one of the salt mines accidentally drops some new copper coins (Szechuan has been part of the Hong empire for just a few years) into a zinc tub full of salt solution. Being somewhat cheap, he orders a worker to retrieve them ALL. This takes some time for the worker, since the solution is too thick to see through and too thin that the coins don't sink that fast. After cleaning the coins, the official is surprised to see that some of the coins now look a bit different than others, for they were electroplated. The news spread, and during the next decades Szechuan becomes the center for the production of all kinds of galvanized metal things.
History of science in the 15th century:
1415: In Florence (which wasn't hit by Black Death), the inventor and artist Lorenzo del Vacca starts his work as a studio boy. Until his death in 1463, he'll invent many things way ahead of his time, like the "movable fortress" (a primitive tank), a hang glider, improved guns and bombs, better cryptography, and many others. In addition, he further improves the Rinascita art, leading it to its apex.
General state of the art:
Western Europe: Due to the Black Death, few progresses (except in Florence). The shock of the catastrophe was too harsh. After the invention of the printing press, people start to spread the knowledge (re-)discovered during the Rinascita again, and faster than before.
Islamic World: In conquered Naples (Al-Napuli, as they call it), the Muslims discover the use of glasses, start building telescopes and microscopes towards the end of the century.
Their mathematicians discover an algorithm for calculating nth roots.
India: Kerala school goes on, invents things like:
- Integration of functions
- Solution of transcendental equations
- Mean value theorem, foundation for calculus
- Inductive mathematical proof
China: Salt "batteries", galvanization. Beginning of primitive statistics (concept of probability).
Summary of the 15th century:
East Asia: Hong dynasty makes all of East Asia its sphere of influence, sends Treasure ships to Seljuks, clashes with them.
Muslim World: Morocco conquered by Castille. Seljuks expand greatly, into Egypt, Hejaz, Hungary, Rome. Alliance with Barbary pirates.
Eastern Europe: Russians start to expand into Siberia, Ukraine. Religious schism drives Vladimir-Suzdal and Kiev further apart from each other. Teutonic Order loses its first war.
Western and Central Europe: France wins Second and Third Aquitaine War, kicks out England from its soil. England conquers Scotland, Castille takes Portugal, and both unite to form the Quadruple Monarchy. Territories of the church in HRE seized, leading to 20yr war. All Italian states except Savoy, Venice and Florence lose independence. Netherlands, Switzerland become stronger. Bohemia becomes a theocracy.
Atlantis (America): Europeans start trading tobacco and pelts. Denmark, Scotland, Florence, Sweden, Braunschweig-Lüneburg, England, France and Castille found first colonies (although Scotland loses them again). Mayapan destroyed.
Rest of the World: Portuguese explore West African coast down to Niger river, start slave trade. Songhay replaces empire of Mali.
Read [post=666312]a paper about TTL's 15th century science[/post]!
The middle of the millennium reached! Now let's go on...
Retcon:
~1340: Double-entry bookkeeping invented in Europe
1384: In Szechuan, a young official visiting one of the salt mines accidentally drops some new copper coins (Szechuan has been part of the Hong empire for just a few years) into a zinc tub full of salt solution. Being somewhat cheap, he orders a worker to retrieve them ALL. This takes some time for the worker, since the solution is too thick to see through and too thin that the coins don't sink that fast. After cleaning the coins, the official is surprised to see that some of the coins now look a bit different than others, for they were electroplated. The news spread, and during the next decades Szechuan becomes the center for the production of all kinds of galvanized metal things.
History of science in the 15th century:
1415: In Florence (which wasn't hit by Black Death), the inventor and artist Lorenzo del Vacca starts his work as a studio boy. Until his death in 1463, he'll invent many things way ahead of his time, like the "movable fortress" (a primitive tank), a hang glider, improved guns and bombs, better cryptography, and many others. In addition, he further improves the Rinascita art, leading it to its apex.
General state of the art:
Western Europe: Due to the Black Death, few progresses (except in Florence). The shock of the catastrophe was too harsh. After the invention of the printing press, people start to spread the knowledge (re-)discovered during the Rinascita again, and faster than before.
Islamic World: In conquered Naples (Al-Napuli, as they call it), the Muslims discover the use of glasses, start building telescopes and microscopes towards the end of the century.
Their mathematicians discover an algorithm for calculating nth roots.
India: Kerala school goes on, invents things like:
- Integration of functions
- Solution of transcendental equations
- Mean value theorem, foundation for calculus
- Inductive mathematical proof
China: Salt "batteries", galvanization. Beginning of primitive statistics (concept of probability).
Summary of the 15th century:
East Asia: Hong dynasty makes all of East Asia its sphere of influence, sends Treasure ships to Seljuks, clashes with them.
Muslim World: Morocco conquered by Castille. Seljuks expand greatly, into Egypt, Hejaz, Hungary, Rome. Alliance with Barbary pirates.
Eastern Europe: Russians start to expand into Siberia, Ukraine. Religious schism drives Vladimir-Suzdal and Kiev further apart from each other. Teutonic Order loses its first war.
Western and Central Europe: France wins Second and Third Aquitaine War, kicks out England from its soil. England conquers Scotland, Castille takes Portugal, and both unite to form the Quadruple Monarchy. Territories of the church in HRE seized, leading to 20yr war. All Italian states except Savoy, Venice and Florence lose independence. Netherlands, Switzerland become stronger. Bohemia becomes a theocracy.
Atlantis (America): Europeans start trading tobacco and pelts. Denmark, Scotland, Florence, Sweden, Braunschweig-Lüneburg, England, France and Castille found first colonies (although Scotland loses them again). Mayapan destroyed.
Rest of the World: Portuguese explore West African coast down to Niger river, start slave trade. Songhay replaces empire of Mali.
Read [post=666312]a paper about TTL's 15th century science[/post]!
The middle of the millennium reached! Now let's go on...
Last edited:
Highly doubtful, as there is no "p" in Arabic. Palestine's Neapolis, the former Shechem, evolved into Nablus.
7.1 Middle East 1500-1550
Max Sinister
Banned
Middle East 1500-1550
@mikegold: I'll ask Leo to solve that.
@Constantinople: We'll see. Read this update...
Middle East 1500-1550:
1501/02: Rest of Hungary occupied by Seljuks.
1503: Uprising of Albanians under a local hero named Skanderbeg start. It takes the Rum-Seljuks 20 years to put down the rebels.
1505-09: Austrian War. Seljuks invade Austria, take Vienna, restrict the duke to mountainous Styria and Carinthia. Following that, they also defeat the Bavarian army, taking Salzburg and Bavaria east of the Inn river. Among the fallen is also the former, now titular king of Naples, Charles / Carlo V.
1510: The theocracy of Bohemia pays tribute to the Seljuks.
1516-18: Seljuks invade Florence. Although they stay supreme in open battle, they don't manage to take the new "Italian fortresses". When the Janissaries become discontent because they can't plunder the cities, the Sultan has to cancel the attack, goes into the Marches instead. The tiny republic of San marino is overrun by them as well.
1519-22: The alliance of the Quadruple monarchy, Florence, Venice and some German princes fight the Seljuks to a stalemate along the Po river, which becomes the new northern border of the Seljuk empire.
1521: Crete conquered by Rum-Seljuks. De facto end of Venice as a sea power.
1526: Kumans (also called Kipchaks or Polovtser; at the northern Black Sea coast) who feel threatened by Kiev-Chernigov pay the Seljuks tribute. Maximum of their power reached.
1530: First clash between the Seljuk empire and the Russians. For this time, the Seljuks throw the Russians back into their woods.
1539-48: Seljuk-Persian war breaks out (Persia is backed and influenced by China). Many battles in Mesopotamia. At the end, Seljuks win again, and take Hormus, but the war used up a lot of their resources.
1542: Great uprising of the Carbonari in South Italy, which soon spreads to Rome itself. Florence uses the opportunity and invades Latium. Many volunteers go to Italy to fight against the Seljuks; some pious nobles, mainly from Castille-Portugal, support Florence with money.
1543: Florentine troops stand in Naples and the Marches. Now however, the main army of the Seljuks arrives, and the Florentine army is defeated several times. The chaos allows many carbonari to leave South Italy and flee to safer places. Many will settle in Italia Nuova, which soon includes all of Virginia and Maryland (although thinly settled).
1544: When the Seljuks again fail to take the Florentine fortresses, they make peace, although Florence has to pay some tribute. The people of Rome have to leave their city, which the sultan wants to settle anew with Muslims. Some of them go to Atlantis too, but others swear to retake Rome ASAP.
Read [post=670448]a comment about the rise of the Seljuks...[/post]
@mikegold: I'll ask Leo to solve that.
@Constantinople: We'll see. Read this update...
Middle East 1500-1550:
1501/02: Rest of Hungary occupied by Seljuks.
1503: Uprising of Albanians under a local hero named Skanderbeg start. It takes the Rum-Seljuks 20 years to put down the rebels.
1505-09: Austrian War. Seljuks invade Austria, take Vienna, restrict the duke to mountainous Styria and Carinthia. Following that, they also defeat the Bavarian army, taking Salzburg and Bavaria east of the Inn river. Among the fallen is also the former, now titular king of Naples, Charles / Carlo V.
1510: The theocracy of Bohemia pays tribute to the Seljuks.
1516-18: Seljuks invade Florence. Although they stay supreme in open battle, they don't manage to take the new "Italian fortresses". When the Janissaries become discontent because they can't plunder the cities, the Sultan has to cancel the attack, goes into the Marches instead. The tiny republic of San marino is overrun by them as well.
1519-22: The alliance of the Quadruple monarchy, Florence, Venice and some German princes fight the Seljuks to a stalemate along the Po river, which becomes the new northern border of the Seljuk empire.
1521: Crete conquered by Rum-Seljuks. De facto end of Venice as a sea power.
1526: Kumans (also called Kipchaks or Polovtser; at the northern Black Sea coast) who feel threatened by Kiev-Chernigov pay the Seljuks tribute. Maximum of their power reached.
1530: First clash between the Seljuk empire and the Russians. For this time, the Seljuks throw the Russians back into their woods.
1539-48: Seljuk-Persian war breaks out (Persia is backed and influenced by China). Many battles in Mesopotamia. At the end, Seljuks win again, and take Hormus, but the war used up a lot of their resources.
1542: Great uprising of the Carbonari in South Italy, which soon spreads to Rome itself. Florence uses the opportunity and invades Latium. Many volunteers go to Italy to fight against the Seljuks; some pious nobles, mainly from Castille-Portugal, support Florence with money.
1543: Florentine troops stand in Naples and the Marches. Now however, the main army of the Seljuks arrives, and the Florentine army is defeated several times. The chaos allows many carbonari to leave South Italy and flee to safer places. Many will settle in Italia Nuova, which soon includes all of Virginia and Maryland (although thinly settled).
1544: When the Seljuks again fail to take the Florentine fortresses, they make peace, although Florence has to pay some tribute. The people of Rome have to leave their city, which the sultan wants to settle anew with Muslims. Some of them go to Atlantis too, but others swear to retake Rome ASAP.
Read [post=670448]a comment about the rise of the Seljuks...[/post]
7.2 Central Europe, 1500-1550
Max Sinister
Banned
Central Europe, 1500-1550
@Constantinople, Imajin: Wait and see. The Muslims are stronger ITTL, but we'll have to see how far they can go... Northern Italy, Bavaria, Poland, what's better suited? Or should they liberate Morocco?
First a short retcon:
1470: The young king of Poland has to accept a new constitution, which gives every noble (15% of the Polish population!) the right to vote in the parliament, and introduces separation of powers.
Central Europe, 1500-1550:
1500-1508: Reforms of the HRE. Everlasting Landfrieden ("public peace" - puts an end to the feuds) proclaimed. Braunschweig-Lüneburg gets the ninth electorate. Otherwise, the electorate system isn't reformed - but the clerical electors (the bishops of Cologne, Mainz and Trier) are now really dependent of their princes, the princes of Jülich-Berg, Nassau and Luxemburg respectively. The Gottesfreistaaten of Münster and Würzburg are put into Reichsacht (means: everyone may kill their people and take their lands). The Reichstag is established. It's not a parliament, more a platform for the princes and the other states. The electors (and later Franconia-Pomerania) have one vote each, while the smaller states only have "shared votes". To counter the Seljuk threat, the Reichsarmee (Imperial army) is founded too. HRE now named "Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation".
1506: Jan the Old (also called the Good) elected new king in Bohemia. After the difficult times of the 15th century, he cuts back the radical religious groups, builds up the economy and science again, and starts diplomatic relations with other European powers.
1511: Francois, the Regent for his nephew, French king Charles VIII, elected Roman king (as Franz I). He has to find out soon that the title is far from meaning much power. To counter this, he founds the "Alliance des Alpes / Alpenbund" with Venice, Bavaria and Württemberg-Carinthia, which is mainly directed against the Seljuks.
With the death of Ottokar III of Carinthia, the Przemyslid dynasty ends. His lands are divided between his daughters - Maria, who marries the duke of Württemberg, gets the electorate, Carinthia and Styria (and theoretically Austria), and Elisabeth, who married the duke of Brandenburg, gets Silesia.
1521-23: Hanseatic League clashes with united Scandinavia (later more) which started the Sund toll. However, the Hanse cities lose this time. As a consequence, the Hanseatic League becomes less and less important. While the cities in the Netherlands (and to a lesser extent, in Braunschweig-Lüneburg) profit from the Atlantean trade, the Baltic cities are not that lucky. Not to mention those cities who suffer under the regime of the theocrats. The League continues officially, but it lost power.
1522: After Poland threatens the (shrunk) lands of the Teutonic Order, the knights appeal to the Holy Roman Emperor. Since he and France can use every supporter, Prussia is made a secular duchy and joins the HRE. The Poles are not too happy about this. King Boleslaw VII and his successor Boleslaw VIII now start a policy with the aim of strengthening the power of Poland and themselves: They build many printing presses and several universities, found colonies and reform Poland in various ways.
1530s: Unhappy about the western schism, Christian reform movements spread in the HRE too. The bible is translated independently three times: Into Swabian German by Josef (who later called himself Gotthold) Füssli, into Northern German in Braunschweig-Lüneburg (this version even spreads into the Netherlands) by Matthias Lieber, and into Upper German by Hieronymus Knoblauch in Upper Palatinate. Except for Bavaria and Prussia, most German princes introduce the one or other translated bible, bring the church in their lands under their control.
1533: Religious uprisings in Florence. The radicals are suppressed, but the duke gives in insofar as he has the bible translated into the vernacular. Otherwise, Florence still stands on the side of the pope.
1538: Poland secularizes church property.
1541-44: Swiss-Savoy war. The former win, get the control over Graubünden, Tessin and Veltlin.
1545: Count Friedrich von Hohenzollern of Ansbach and Bayreuth defeats the Gottesfreistaat Würzburg, annexes it, thus forming the duchy of Franconia. For this deed, the emperor promises him to support his claims for Pomerania too.
Read [post=674115]an analysis of the reforms of the Empire here[/post]
@Constantinople, Imajin: Wait and see. The Muslims are stronger ITTL, but we'll have to see how far they can go... Northern Italy, Bavaria, Poland, what's better suited? Or should they liberate Morocco?
First a short retcon:
1470: The young king of Poland has to accept a new constitution, which gives every noble (15% of the Polish population!) the right to vote in the parliament, and introduces separation of powers.
Central Europe, 1500-1550:
1500-1508: Reforms of the HRE. Everlasting Landfrieden ("public peace" - puts an end to the feuds) proclaimed. Braunschweig-Lüneburg gets the ninth electorate. Otherwise, the electorate system isn't reformed - but the clerical electors (the bishops of Cologne, Mainz and Trier) are now really dependent of their princes, the princes of Jülich-Berg, Nassau and Luxemburg respectively. The Gottesfreistaaten of Münster and Würzburg are put into Reichsacht (means: everyone may kill their people and take their lands). The Reichstag is established. It's not a parliament, more a platform for the princes and the other states. The electors (and later Franconia-Pomerania) have one vote each, while the smaller states only have "shared votes". To counter the Seljuk threat, the Reichsarmee (Imperial army) is founded too. HRE now named "Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation".
1506: Jan the Old (also called the Good) elected new king in Bohemia. After the difficult times of the 15th century, he cuts back the radical religious groups, builds up the economy and science again, and starts diplomatic relations with other European powers.
1511: Francois, the Regent for his nephew, French king Charles VIII, elected Roman king (as Franz I). He has to find out soon that the title is far from meaning much power. To counter this, he founds the "Alliance des Alpes / Alpenbund" with Venice, Bavaria and Württemberg-Carinthia, which is mainly directed against the Seljuks.
With the death of Ottokar III of Carinthia, the Przemyslid dynasty ends. His lands are divided between his daughters - Maria, who marries the duke of Württemberg, gets the electorate, Carinthia and Styria (and theoretically Austria), and Elisabeth, who married the duke of Brandenburg, gets Silesia.
1521-23: Hanseatic League clashes with united Scandinavia (later more) which started the Sund toll. However, the Hanse cities lose this time. As a consequence, the Hanseatic League becomes less and less important. While the cities in the Netherlands (and to a lesser extent, in Braunschweig-Lüneburg) profit from the Atlantean trade, the Baltic cities are not that lucky. Not to mention those cities who suffer under the regime of the theocrats. The League continues officially, but it lost power.
1522: After Poland threatens the (shrunk) lands of the Teutonic Order, the knights appeal to the Holy Roman Emperor. Since he and France can use every supporter, Prussia is made a secular duchy and joins the HRE. The Poles are not too happy about this. King Boleslaw VII and his successor Boleslaw VIII now start a policy with the aim of strengthening the power of Poland and themselves: They build many printing presses and several universities, found colonies and reform Poland in various ways.
1530s: Unhappy about the western schism, Christian reform movements spread in the HRE too. The bible is translated independently three times: Into Swabian German by Josef (who later called himself Gotthold) Füssli, into Northern German in Braunschweig-Lüneburg (this version even spreads into the Netherlands) by Matthias Lieber, and into Upper German by Hieronymus Knoblauch in Upper Palatinate. Except for Bavaria and Prussia, most German princes introduce the one or other translated bible, bring the church in their lands under their control.
1533: Religious uprisings in Florence. The radicals are suppressed, but the duke gives in insofar as he has the bible translated into the vernacular. Otherwise, Florence still stands on the side of the pope.
1538: Poland secularizes church property.
1541-44: Swiss-Savoy war. The former win, get the control over Graubünden, Tessin and Veltlin.
1545: Count Friedrich von Hohenzollern of Ansbach and Bayreuth defeats the Gottesfreistaat Würzburg, annexes it, thus forming the duchy of Franconia. For this deed, the emperor promises him to support his claims for Pomerania too.
Read [post=674115]an analysis of the reforms of the Empire here[/post]
Last edited:
Keenir
Banned
When I saw the map just before this, I thought to myself "oh yeah, the Seljuks could go splat in a big way," though a Rome-style fragmentation is also possible, I suppose.
just a thought-observation.
as to the heresies...I was just curious; no worries.
7.3 Atlantis, 1500-1550
Max Sinister
Banned
Atlantis, 1500-1550
@Justin: Hm, you understand German? Well, Terry Pratchett found the name Garlick in historical lists about burned witches, and there were some not so unimportant Germans named Knoblauch too...
@Keenir: We'll see.
And here's Atlantis (from now on with its own entries), 1500-1550:
1500: On their third expedition to Atlantis, the Castillians discover Cuba. This marks the beginning of the colonization of the Caribbean. On their return, they also discover the Bahamas.
A ship from Braunschweig-Lüneburg discovers Bermuda by accident.
1500-10: Settlement of Cuba by Castillians.
1502: Motehcuhzoma II becomes ruler of the Tenochca.
1504: Jamaica discovered by Castillians.
1507: Castillians found Veracruz at the site of OTL New Orleans, start exploring the Mississippi valley.
1509-12: After some clashes with Danish colonists in Atlantis, the Quadruple monarchy declares war against Denmark. Dutch ally with them. In the peace of Hamburg, Denmark loses its lands in Canada to the Quadruple Monarchy and Anderland to the Netherlands. Only the city of Haraldsborg (OTL New York, plus Long Island) and Prince-Haralds-Land (Newfoundland, as a base for fishermen) stay in their hands.
1514: French send an expedition to the Caribbean, claim Hispaniola for themselves, which they call New France.
1517: Puerto Rico becomes Castillian colony.
1518/19: Castillians subjugate the Maya.
1520: A small Castillian expedition (a few dozen men) meets the Tenochca. They're defeated, noone returns. However, the Castillians beat the Tenochca at Tapachula (south of OTL Mexico).
1521: The only surviving heir of the Norwegian (and Scottish) throne, Prince Alasdair / Alexander goes to Atlantis, where he spends some time around the Caribbean. He also approaches the Tenochca and learns about their gold riches.
1522: Prince Alasdair comes to the court of France, warns the king that the Quadruple monarchy is about to conquer the rich lands of the Tenochca. He points out: "If the king owns their gold, he can afford to hire all the mercenaries in the world! You have to stop him now!"
1523: Castillians want to send an expedition to Tenochtitlan, but the ship from Cuba is destroyed in a hurricane, and until replacements are found, necessary time passes.
1524: France manages to smuggle some hundred soldiers and advisors to Atlantis to help Cuitláuac, the military leader of the Mexica, as the Tenochca are now called in Europe. The Tenochca have to convert to Christianity, however.
1526: Battle of Cempoala. French-Tenochca defeat Castillians.
1527: Huayna Capac dies.
1528: King Henrik of Scandinavia takes advantage of the war, takes the islands of Virgin Islands, Anguilla, Saint Christopher and Nevis, Antigua and Barbuda, and Montserrat for his empire.
1530: Castillians explore the north coast of OTL Columbia and Venezuela, discover the Orinoco mouth, occupy the Antilles, build first settlements in South Atlantis.
1531: Dutch found colonies on Guadeloupe, Dominica.
1532: Motehcuhzoma II dies, Cuitláuac becomes new ruler of the Mexica.
1533: Braunschweig-Lüneburg claims the islands of Martinique, Santa Lucia.
1535: Castillians drive the French-Tenochca back to the heart of the old Tenochca Empire, ally with their old enemy Tlaxcala. Only the lack of support prevents them from winning completely.
1536: Florentines take Saint Vincent, Grenada, Barbados (which they call Elba Nuova).
1538: Castillians cross the isthmus of Panama, discover the Pacific. They learn about the lands of the Inca.
1539: Poland joins colonial powers, takes Trinidad and Tobago.
1541-50: Inca conquer Chibcha lands in OTL northern Columbia.
1543: With Scandinavia in Civil War / unrest, the other powers use the opportunity. Nystad, the capital of New Sweden, is taken by the Dutch; the South and West of the Chesapeake peninsula goes to Italia Nuova. The Netherlands and Florence make a treaty, ruling the border between their colonies in Atlantis, and promising to respect their borders.
1544: In Haraldsborg, the last Danish colony, chaos ensued after the mother country fell into civil war. Poland sends soldiers to the city, occupying it. Haraldsborg becomes the portal for Polish and Prussian immigrants to (Northern) Atlantis.
1545: Battle at Ile de la Tortue (OTL Tortuga). French defeat English-Castillian fleet.
1547: After the end of the Great European War, Europeans start regular trade with Mexica and Inca. They keep their independence because neither power wants the other one to own their rich lands. The Quadruple Monarchy cedes West Florida, Panama and the Mississippi valley to France, western Anderland to France's ally Denmark.
1548: French governor starts work in Veracruz, which is renamed Nouvelle-Orléans. France and Scotland found each a harbor city in Mexico to trade with the Tenochca, and another two at the foot of the Andes, to trade with the Inca empire too.
Read [post=677056]the movie review for "Alexander"[/post]!
Here's a map of Atlantis in the years 1450 (upper left) / 1500 (down left) / 1550 (right) respectively.
England: red
France: pink
Castille: yellow
Poland: blue
Sweden: green
Denmark: light blue
Dutch: orange
Florence: pale green
Braunschweig: brown
Scotland: purple
@Justin: Hm, you understand German? Well, Terry Pratchett found the name Garlick in historical lists about burned witches, and there were some not so unimportant Germans named Knoblauch too...
@Keenir: We'll see.
And here's Atlantis (from now on with its own entries), 1500-1550:
1500: On their third expedition to Atlantis, the Castillians discover Cuba. This marks the beginning of the colonization of the Caribbean. On their return, they also discover the Bahamas.
A ship from Braunschweig-Lüneburg discovers Bermuda by accident.
1500-10: Settlement of Cuba by Castillians.
1502: Motehcuhzoma II becomes ruler of the Tenochca.
1504: Jamaica discovered by Castillians.
1507: Castillians found Veracruz at the site of OTL New Orleans, start exploring the Mississippi valley.
1509-12: After some clashes with Danish colonists in Atlantis, the Quadruple monarchy declares war against Denmark. Dutch ally with them. In the peace of Hamburg, Denmark loses its lands in Canada to the Quadruple Monarchy and Anderland to the Netherlands. Only the city of Haraldsborg (OTL New York, plus Long Island) and Prince-Haralds-Land (Newfoundland, as a base for fishermen) stay in their hands.
1514: French send an expedition to the Caribbean, claim Hispaniola for themselves, which they call New France.
1517: Puerto Rico becomes Castillian colony.
1518/19: Castillians subjugate the Maya.
1520: A small Castillian expedition (a few dozen men) meets the Tenochca. They're defeated, noone returns. However, the Castillians beat the Tenochca at Tapachula (south of OTL Mexico).
1521: The only surviving heir of the Norwegian (and Scottish) throne, Prince Alasdair / Alexander goes to Atlantis, where he spends some time around the Caribbean. He also approaches the Tenochca and learns about their gold riches.
1522: Prince Alasdair comes to the court of France, warns the king that the Quadruple monarchy is about to conquer the rich lands of the Tenochca. He points out: "If the king owns their gold, he can afford to hire all the mercenaries in the world! You have to stop him now!"
1523: Castillians want to send an expedition to Tenochtitlan, but the ship from Cuba is destroyed in a hurricane, and until replacements are found, necessary time passes.
1524: France manages to smuggle some hundred soldiers and advisors to Atlantis to help Cuitláuac, the military leader of the Mexica, as the Tenochca are now called in Europe. The Tenochca have to convert to Christianity, however.
1526: Battle of Cempoala. French-Tenochca defeat Castillians.
1527: Huayna Capac dies.
1528: King Henrik of Scandinavia takes advantage of the war, takes the islands of Virgin Islands, Anguilla, Saint Christopher and Nevis, Antigua and Barbuda, and Montserrat for his empire.
1530: Castillians explore the north coast of OTL Columbia and Venezuela, discover the Orinoco mouth, occupy the Antilles, build first settlements in South Atlantis.
1531: Dutch found colonies on Guadeloupe, Dominica.
1532: Motehcuhzoma II dies, Cuitláuac becomes new ruler of the Mexica.
1533: Braunschweig-Lüneburg claims the islands of Martinique, Santa Lucia.
1535: Castillians drive the French-Tenochca back to the heart of the old Tenochca Empire, ally with their old enemy Tlaxcala. Only the lack of support prevents them from winning completely.
1536: Florentines take Saint Vincent, Grenada, Barbados (which they call Elba Nuova).
1538: Castillians cross the isthmus of Panama, discover the Pacific. They learn about the lands of the Inca.
1539: Poland joins colonial powers, takes Trinidad and Tobago.
1541-50: Inca conquer Chibcha lands in OTL northern Columbia.
1543: With Scandinavia in Civil War / unrest, the other powers use the opportunity. Nystad, the capital of New Sweden, is taken by the Dutch; the South and West of the Chesapeake peninsula goes to Italia Nuova. The Netherlands and Florence make a treaty, ruling the border between their colonies in Atlantis, and promising to respect their borders.
1544: In Haraldsborg, the last Danish colony, chaos ensued after the mother country fell into civil war. Poland sends soldiers to the city, occupying it. Haraldsborg becomes the portal for Polish and Prussian immigrants to (Northern) Atlantis.
1545: Battle at Ile de la Tortue (OTL Tortuga). French defeat English-Castillian fleet.
1547: After the end of the Great European War, Europeans start regular trade with Mexica and Inca. They keep their independence because neither power wants the other one to own their rich lands. The Quadruple Monarchy cedes West Florida, Panama and the Mississippi valley to France, western Anderland to France's ally Denmark.
1548: French governor starts work in Veracruz, which is renamed Nouvelle-Orléans. France and Scotland found each a harbor city in Mexico to trade with the Tenochca, and another two at the foot of the Andes, to trade with the Inca empire too.
Read [post=677056]the movie review for "Alexander"[/post]!
Here's a map of Atlantis in the years 1450 (upper left) / 1500 (down left) / 1550 (right) respectively.
England: red
France: pink
Castille: yellow
Poland: blue
Sweden: green
Denmark: light blue
Dutch: orange
Florence: pale green
Braunschweig: brown
Scotland: purple
7.4 Western / Northern Europe, 1500-1550
Max Sinister
Banned
Western / Northern Europe, 1500-1550
Retcon for Central Europe:
1503: The Slovakian estates make an alliance with Poland, after Hungary was conquered by the Seljuks.
Western / Northern Europe, 1500-1550:
1504: Erik XV Birgersson of Sweden deposed, for being unpopular and having no heir. Knut Karlsson of the Bonde family is made regent.
1506: King David of Norway dies. His heir is only three years old. The nobles use the opportunity and set up a nobles' republic similar as Aragon. They plan to kill the prince, but he is smuggled by some loyal Scottish followers out of Norway; they flee first to Denmark, later to the Netherlands and France.
1510: James of Athelhampton writes a text "About the divine right of the king", propagating that the king should stand higher than the bishops in his lands. This basically means a breakaway from the pope in Avignon. Since he abandoned Rome, many Christians have criticized him; and since more and more money from the Quadruple Monarchy's lands in Africa and Atlantis goes into his coffers, the number of critics has grown even more.
The English nobles accept the proposal after a few months, but Castille-Portugal is more reluctant to accept the king as head of church. The coalitions formed don't even ask for nationalities, classes, or even families. From 1511-17, the Iberian peninsula goes through almost Civil War-like conditions. The opponents of the king are rewarded with the property of his defeated enemies (including some church property), which helps him to succeed. He founds the "Occidental Christian church".
1514: Francois / Franz crowned Holy Roman Emperor (in Avignon).
1519: After a meeting of the cardinals of the Quadruple Monarchy, they accept king Edward as supreme spiritual authority. The liturgy or anything else substantial isn't changed. The western schism begins. The church property in the Quadruple Monarchy goes to the king as well, who uses it to give it to his followers, thus further strengthening his authority. When the pope protests, the king declares in return that he won't accept the authority of "the lackey of the French king".
1520: The nobles of Sweden decide to make Henrik of Denmark new king, since Knut Karlsson also has no heir.
1520s: As a reaction to king Edward's Caesaropapism, a new Christian movement spreads through Great Britain - "Independents" who demand that the state completely stops interfering with the church, and again demands the translation of the bible, which the church still declines.
1523: After Sweden, Henrik of Denmark also is elected new king of Norway. He now reigns all of Scandinavia.
1523-47: Great Occidental War. The Quadruple Monarchy fights against France, Aragon, the HRE and the Tenochca.
1527: Although the war on land goes well for the Quadruple monarchy, where the new Castillian tercios repeatedly defeat the French, their fleet is defeated in the big sea battle of Biarritz.
1528: After the defeat of Cempoala, the war in Europe intensifies. The Quadruple king hopes for a reconquest of Aquitaine. France feels threatened and needs a diversion. "Prince Alasdair" who returned from Atlantis lands in Scotland, soon gains followers, starts guerilla war against the English.
1530: Scots defeat English at the battle of Stirling, reconquer the Lowlands.
1531: Prince Alasdair extends the war to Ireland.
1533: Dublin conquered by Prince Alasdair.
1534: Charles VIII elected king Carles of Aragon.
1535: After the death of emperor Franz, king Charles is elected new Roman king, despite some resistance (he gets 6 of 9 votes).
King Henrik VI starts the Scandinavian church, confiscates the church property and has the bible translated.
1538-42: Uprisings in Morocco. The rebelling Muslims are enslaved and mostly brought to the New World. However, they distract the Quadruple Monarchy, which has to move Castillian troops from France to Morocco.
1541: King Gerhard of Denmark, Norway and Sweden deposed for complete madness. The land falls into Civil War, with various (wannabe) contenders fighting. Norway becomes a nobles' republic again, Sweden declares independence too.
1543: After Morocco is secured, the insulted Quadruple king wants to get rid of Prince Alasdair, so he moves his troops not to Aquitaine, but Scotland. The Castillian and Portuguese troops aren't accustomed to the land and the climate, which weakens them.
1544: Swedes make Gustav of the Sture family new regent. He manages that the office stays in the family.
1546: After several indecisive battles, Prince Alasdair decides to let the troops of the enemy march deep into the Highlands, making them believe they were chasing the Scots. As the chronicles write, certainly no other Scot leader would be able to demand that of his people - which proves Alasdair's charisma. He doesn't disappoint the Scots: At October 10th, they destroy their enemy in the battle of Callander.
1547: Peace of Barcelona. The Quadruple Monarchy has to cede Murcia to Aragon, and accept the independence of Scotland-Ireland under Alasdair / Alexander IV in Europe, and of the Mexica and Inca people in Atlantis (who have to convert to Christianity, though, since the pope insists). Plus, they have to pay several tons of gold.
1549: The double revolt in the (now) Triple monarchy of England-Castille-Portugal: Both the parliament in England and the Cortes in Castille force the king to resign, make his more popular son king.
Read [post=680356]an excerpt from the book "Kingdom of God"[/post]!
Retcon for Central Europe:
1503: The Slovakian estates make an alliance with Poland, after Hungary was conquered by the Seljuks.
Western / Northern Europe, 1500-1550:
1504: Erik XV Birgersson of Sweden deposed, for being unpopular and having no heir. Knut Karlsson of the Bonde family is made regent.
1506: King David of Norway dies. His heir is only three years old. The nobles use the opportunity and set up a nobles' republic similar as Aragon. They plan to kill the prince, but he is smuggled by some loyal Scottish followers out of Norway; they flee first to Denmark, later to the Netherlands and France.
1510: James of Athelhampton writes a text "About the divine right of the king", propagating that the king should stand higher than the bishops in his lands. This basically means a breakaway from the pope in Avignon. Since he abandoned Rome, many Christians have criticized him; and since more and more money from the Quadruple Monarchy's lands in Africa and Atlantis goes into his coffers, the number of critics has grown even more.
The English nobles accept the proposal after a few months, but Castille-Portugal is more reluctant to accept the king as head of church. The coalitions formed don't even ask for nationalities, classes, or even families. From 1511-17, the Iberian peninsula goes through almost Civil War-like conditions. The opponents of the king are rewarded with the property of his defeated enemies (including some church property), which helps him to succeed. He founds the "Occidental Christian church".
1514: Francois / Franz crowned Holy Roman Emperor (in Avignon).
1519: After a meeting of the cardinals of the Quadruple Monarchy, they accept king Edward as supreme spiritual authority. The liturgy or anything else substantial isn't changed. The western schism begins. The church property in the Quadruple Monarchy goes to the king as well, who uses it to give it to his followers, thus further strengthening his authority. When the pope protests, the king declares in return that he won't accept the authority of "the lackey of the French king".
1520: The nobles of Sweden decide to make Henrik of Denmark new king, since Knut Karlsson also has no heir.
1520s: As a reaction to king Edward's Caesaropapism, a new Christian movement spreads through Great Britain - "Independents" who demand that the state completely stops interfering with the church, and again demands the translation of the bible, which the church still declines.
1523: After Sweden, Henrik of Denmark also is elected new king of Norway. He now reigns all of Scandinavia.
1523-47: Great Occidental War. The Quadruple Monarchy fights against France, Aragon, the HRE and the Tenochca.
1527: Although the war on land goes well for the Quadruple monarchy, where the new Castillian tercios repeatedly defeat the French, their fleet is defeated in the big sea battle of Biarritz.
1528: After the defeat of Cempoala, the war in Europe intensifies. The Quadruple king hopes for a reconquest of Aquitaine. France feels threatened and needs a diversion. "Prince Alasdair" who returned from Atlantis lands in Scotland, soon gains followers, starts guerilla war against the English.
1530: Scots defeat English at the battle of Stirling, reconquer the Lowlands.
1531: Prince Alasdair extends the war to Ireland.
1533: Dublin conquered by Prince Alasdair.
1534: Charles VIII elected king Carles of Aragon.
1535: After the death of emperor Franz, king Charles is elected new Roman king, despite some resistance (he gets 6 of 9 votes).
King Henrik VI starts the Scandinavian church, confiscates the church property and has the bible translated.
1538-42: Uprisings in Morocco. The rebelling Muslims are enslaved and mostly brought to the New World. However, they distract the Quadruple Monarchy, which has to move Castillian troops from France to Morocco.
1541: King Gerhard of Denmark, Norway and Sweden deposed for complete madness. The land falls into Civil War, with various (wannabe) contenders fighting. Norway becomes a nobles' republic again, Sweden declares independence too.
1543: After Morocco is secured, the insulted Quadruple king wants to get rid of Prince Alasdair, so he moves his troops not to Aquitaine, but Scotland. The Castillian and Portuguese troops aren't accustomed to the land and the climate, which weakens them.
1544: Swedes make Gustav of the Sture family new regent. He manages that the office stays in the family.
1546: After several indecisive battles, Prince Alasdair decides to let the troops of the enemy march deep into the Highlands, making them believe they were chasing the Scots. As the chronicles write, certainly no other Scot leader would be able to demand that of his people - which proves Alasdair's charisma. He doesn't disappoint the Scots: At October 10th, they destroy their enemy in the battle of Callander.
1547: Peace of Barcelona. The Quadruple Monarchy has to cede Murcia to Aragon, and accept the independence of Scotland-Ireland under Alasdair / Alexander IV in Europe, and of the Mexica and Inca people in Atlantis (who have to convert to Christianity, though, since the pope insists). Plus, they have to pay several tons of gold.
1549: The double revolt in the (now) Triple monarchy of England-Castille-Portugal: Both the parliament in England and the Cortes in Castille force the king to resign, make his more popular son king.
Read [post=680356]an excerpt from the book "Kingdom of God"[/post]!
HelloLegend
Banned
I noticed the Danish having a larger role as well in Scandanavia s what I meant to say. Interesting to see how if any this change world politics in the 18th and 19th century if and when Pax Brittanica is created.
Opps... I skipped over the part where Danish King is deposed for madness, back to square one.
Opps... I skipped over the part where Danish King is deposed for madness, back to square one.
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