Chaos TL: A world without Genghis Khan's conquests (finished!)

1. Ogadai against Jalal-ad-Din
Ogadai against Jalal-ad-Din

1200: Temujin dies by an accident. Since his four sons (Jochi, Chagatai, Ogadai, and Tolui) are still too young (they're between 10 and 15 now), he has no clear successor. Enemies of Temujin, like his former friend and blood brother Jamukha Gurkhan, some of the clans and people he defeated and some people who're simply ambitious try to use the situation, and the people Temujin already united fall apart. Some of Temujin's "Dogs of war" (Subodai, Chilaun, Jelme and Borchu) and his family are still willing to fight to preserve his heritage, but for the beginning his dream has suffered a setback. The following years are filled by infighting between the various steppe tribes and people, with too many battles and changing alliances to mention them.

(as OTL) Sultan Ala ad-Din Tekish of Choresm dies and is succeeded by his son, Ala ad-Din Muhammad.

1205: Ogadai, the most talented and charismatic of Temujin's sons, is old enough to fight by himself for his father's dream, but he still needs the support of his elder brothers and the supporters of his father. He'll never be able to be a ruler as strong as his father.

(as OTL) Muhammad has conquered all of Great Seljuk and declared himself Shah.

1207: Jochi (who is suspected that Temujin isn't really his father) is killed by his brother(?) Chagatai.

1210: After Chagatai dies in a fight, Ogadai finally becomes the accepted Khan of the Mongols. Now he can continue the suspended work of his father to unite the steppe people. He'll take longer for that than his father and won't be 100% successful, though.

(as OTL) 1212: Shah Muhammad defeats the Gur-Khan Kutluk and conquers the lands of the Kara Kitai, to whom the Choresmians once had to pay tribute.

1213: Ogadai defeats the Merkites. Now he plans to fight the Tatars who once killed his father's father, but the attacking Keraites force him to postpone the plan. To make things worse for him, the subjugated people often rebel because he makes them introduce the Mongols' Code of Law.

1216: Keraites defeated by Ogadai. Now he's ready to fight the Tatars.

(as OTL) 1217/18: Shah Muhammad plans to attack the Caliphate of Baghdad, but too many of his soldiers die in a blizzard in the mountains, so he has to postpone the attack.

1221: After many bloody fights, the remaining Tatars join his horde.

1222: Shah Muhammad dies, is succeeded by his son Jalal-ad-Din. (OOC: There's not too much known about him; IOTL, he managed to save himself by jumping from a dangerously high place into a river after having lost against the Mongols; even Genghiz is said to have been impressed by his courage, so I'm giving him the benefit of doubt and make him a courageous warrior ITTL.) Jalal-ad-Din reigns a great empire, consisting of today's Iran and all the -stans. However, this also means he has to care for various groups trying to rebel against him. Being a good warrior, he eventually succeeds and keeps the empire together.

1225: Naimans defeated.

1227: Uighurs defeated. Ogadai notes that they use writing, which the Mongols don't know yet. He thinks it would be a good idea to use this new knowledge.

Since 1229: Ogadai starts writing down the Yassa, the old and new Laws of the Mongols.

1230: Jalal-ad-Din has consolidated his empire.

1230-32: Ogadai leads the united steppe people against the Tangutes / Hsi-Hsia. Their country is overrun, many of their villages burnt down and their people enslaved. The Mongols don't have the necessary technics to storm their cities, though. OTOH, they manage to capture the secret of gunpowder. Ogadai wants to take the cities by besieging them, but after two years the other Mongols think they have a) spent enough time here and b) there's not enough left to loot for the effort. So Ogadai leaves the country for a high tribute (mostly camels). The Hsi-Hsia empire has suffered extermely under the occupation, and won't recover from it.

1233: Jalal-ad-Din demands formal recognition from the caliph in Baghdad. When the caliph Al-Mustansir rejected his claim, the Shah proclaims one of his nobles caliph and marched towards Baghdad to depose the caliph.

1234: Kara-Kitai defeated by Mongols. Ogadai now reigns the biggest empire on the planet.

1235-38: Various campaigns in Southern Siberia against the Kirghiz and Tuvans.

1236: Choresmians take Baghdad, topple the old Abbaside caliph. Al-Mustansir is imprisoned, some of his relatives flee to Egypt and the lands of the Rum-Seljuks.

1240: After a governor of the Choresm Shah insults Ogadai by killing his diplomats, he decides to attack Choresm. In the battle near the city of Otrar, Ogadai and Jalal-ad-Din meet each other. The attack of the Mongols is successful at first, but the courageous Shah manages to collect his men and prevents a catastrophy. The situation at other frontiers is also indecisive.

1241: Ogadai dies. His son Guyuk (not the same-named from OTL) is the designed successor, but some of his family members won't accept him, and some of the allied non-Mongol people (Tatars, Kara-Kitai, Naimans, Merkites) wish for more independency. Jalal-ad-Din can use the situation for a counter-attack and drives the Mongols back behind Lake Balchash. He also manages to get the secret of gunpowder, which will become important in the future. The steppe people once again fall apart, not to be united at least for decades, waiting for another strong leader.

[post=535366]Read the story here...[/post]
 
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Interesting. Good start, but I do wonder how the Mongols got the secret of gunpowder if none of the cities in Hsi-Hsia fell (I'd imagine that is where the knowledge was.).
 
Correction

OK, I didn't spell this out: The Mongols don't have the weapons to storm cities (IOTL they acquired them in China), but they can besiege them. Not all the cities have fallen (the capital among them), but some have.

PS: Read, comment & criticize the [post=533587]stories for the TL[/post]!
 
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Max Sinister said:
[1] @Tom Veil: "The Mongols left open spaces for the Germans to colonize Silesia, Prussia, Pest, Transylvania, and the Volga."

Quite true - although the settlements at the Volga were started by Catherine the Great, and, more important, the Germans had started the "Drang nach Osten" earlier in history. A few hundred years before our POD, the border between Germans and Slavs was more along the Elbe river. Germany still has a surplus population ITTL...
Sounds good to me. :)
 
Iñaki said:
The campaigns of mongols in Bagdad and in Middle East against the islam effectively delayed the fall of the lasts strongholds of the crusaders in the Holy Land.

Without mongols, these strongholds surely will fall far sooner than in OTL
I'm not _entirely_ certain I concur. The first of the Malemuk sultans were sold to the Aybbuyids of Egypt my the Golden Horde. Without the likes of Baybars(sp?) in charge the Crusader states may well have 'Gone Native' instead of being forcibly purged.

Of course there will be a fair bit of nomadic pressure on the edges of the Eurasian steppe, so expect some interesting effects in Russia/Poland/Hundary in any case.

HTG
 
@htgriffin: You mean sultan Aybak? I couldn't find information about him... Baibars I. was once captured by the Mongols and sold as slave, that's sure. OTOH, Mameluks existed before the Mongol invasions, and they came mainly from the Caucasus and the area around the Black Sea. And to further complicate things: Some Choresmians under Jalal-ad-Din fled from the Mongols, harassed the Seljuks and served as mercenaries for the Ayyubid sultans. This is going to change too...
 

Stalker

Banned
Well, the complete and thoroughy researched variations of the above TL of the World Without Ghengiz-khan have been done at the Russian forum of aternate history.
I cannot make a full tour over concusions made on the Russian forum of aternate history concerning East Europe (for period of 1200-1350) but here are several suggestions I can offer you from what I remember without checking with those threads.
Even without Battle at Kalka, the throne of Great Knyaz (Duke/Prince) of Kiev is going to fall into decay. In this TL, Chernigov's dinasty of Olgovichi starts to play the most important role not only in the lands that ater become what we know now as Ukraine but it will seriously fight for the title of Great Knyaz with Vladimiro-Suzdal Principality. Polotsk sooner or later is going to fall into the hands of a newborn Lietuva (Lithuania). The Romanovichi dinasty of Galich Principaity (later Kingdom during the reign of Daniel of Galich) will obviousy loose their fight for infuence in Southwestern Russ to Chernigov, and subsequently - even their independence (In ATL it was to Lithuania, in this OTL it is most likely to Chernigov). Novgorod being off to the main events sooner or later is going to be devoured by Vladimir. This great power is going to fight for a sphere of infuence in Baltic region.
Poland will cease to exist completely in this TL divided between HRE of German Nation, Lithuania, Kingdom of Czechia and probably by Great Chernigov - but only if the latter will refuse the fight for the title of Great Knyaz because there can be only one vector for Chernigov's expansion - east or west.
 
That'd be interesting to read, Stalker, especially since I guess they will know more about Russian history than I do. Can you give me the link? It won't help too much probably, but I'll try babelfish... and what did they do about the problem of succession in Russia? (You know - if one prince died, all the princedoms would be redistributed among them, which didn't really help to get stability.)

I've already decided to do some things differently than in the sketch you gave me, though...
 

Stalker

Banned
With no probems, sir!:D
Note only that there are lots of Russian slang, idioms, neologisms, computer argotisms and abbreviations that strateforward autotranslators will simpy be unable to cope with...:p
Anyway, feel free to consult me on unclear questions ;)
All right! Here we go:
The thread:"Resurrecting WWG-2 (World without Genghiz-khan)"
http://alternativa.fastbb.ru/index.pl?1-12-0-00000092-000-0-0-1134768063
The thread:"World without Genghiz-khan-2: Continuation of the discussion"
http://alternativa.fastbb.ru/index.pl?1-16-0-00000077-000-0-0-1146412475
The thread: "Great Principaity of Lithuania, Russ, Bulgar, Polovstans in WWG-2 (World without Genghiz-khan)"
http://alternativa.fastbb.ru/index.pl?1-12-0-00000117-000-0-0-1133014065
The thread: "The Balcans in the World without Genghiz-khan-2"
http://alternativa.fastbb.ru/index.pl?1-1-0-00001684-000-0-0-1144658898
 
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Translators won't cope with anything of it at all, if my experience is any indication...

Anyway, as I did follow that discussion (WWG) very closely, I must make a few corrections:

Novgorod being off to the main events sooner or later is going to be devoured by Vladimir. This great power is going to fight for a sphere of infuence in Baltic region.

From what I recall, it was suggested that it will linger on (but lose its White Sea territories to Vladimir).

Poland will cease to exist completely in this TL

Actually, it was meant to be merged by dynastic union with the Czechs (and this Czechopolonia was to bite bits and pieces out of Germany, as was Hungary I suppose).
 

Faeelin

Banned
Max Sinister said:
So Ogadai leaves the country for a high tribute (mostly camels). The Hsi-Hsia empire has suffered extermely under the occupation, and won't recover from it.

Good news for the Song, then.

1233: Jalal-ad-Din demands formal recognition from the caliph in Baghdad. When the caliph Al-Mustansir rejected his claim, the Shah proclaims one of his nobles caliph and marched towards Baghdad to depose the caliph.

Mmm.

Remember, the Abbasids are descended from Mohammed's uncle; so overthrowing him is a direct attack on the idea of the Caliphate.

Perhaps he simply deposes the Turks who are controlling him? Maybe the Caliph ends up as a puppet, like the Japanese Emperor.
 
das said:
Actually, it was meant to be merged by dynastic union with the Czechs (and this Czechopolonia was to bite bits and pieces out of Germany, as was Hungary I suppose).

Bright day
Well that is quite possible, Henry the Pious of the Leignitu (in)fame married one of Czech kings daughters.
 
Thanks for the links, Stalker. I found a relatively good translation service at http://www.worldlingo.com/wl/translate (but don't try to translate something into another language but English, I suspect that they first translate it into English and than into Language2), so I can (kind of) understand it. Greetings from me to Dorei, Den and the others:)

@Faeelin: Actually, that almost happened IOTL: Shah Muhammad II. demanded formal recognition (as Shah) from the caliph in Baghdad. When the caliph an-Nasir rejected his claim, Ala ad-Din Muhammad proclaimed one of his nobles caliph and marched towards Baghdad to depose an-Nasir.

OK, now I've got to write the various bits about China, Russia and Egypt. I hope I can post the next part on the weekend...
 
1.1 The Middle East (incl. Byzantium, the Caucasus and Egypt) 1200-60
The Middle East (incl. Byzantium, the Caucasus and Egypt) 1200-60

1204 (as OTL): Fourth Crusade. Byzantine Empire conquered, Constantinople plundered, Latin Empire founded, which gets one quarter of the lands of the old Empire. Other parts go to Venice or Genoa or become independent. One of the new states is the Empire of Nikaia, which ruler Theodor Laskaris wants to throw out the invaders.

1213 (as OTL): Queen Tamara of Georgia dies. During her reign, capital punishment and dismemberment were abolished.

1223: (Armenia desn't secede from Georgia. No Battle on the river Kalka. Kipchaks / Kumans / Polovtzy still rule the steppes in Southern Russia.)

1224 (as OTL): Kingdom Thessaloniki conquered by Epirus.

1225 (as OTL): Latin Empire cedes almost all of Asia Minor and some islands in the Aegean Sea to Nikaia. Rum-Seljuks conquer Crimea.

Early 13th century: (OTL Mamluk sultan Baibars isn't captured by the Mongols, stays Kipchak.)

1227 (as OTL): Theodore of Epirus and Thessalonica drives the Nikaian garrison out of Adrianople and annexes much of Thrace. Bulgaria and Nikaia ally against the crusaders.

1230s: (The Choresmians under Jalal-ad-Din who fled from the Mongols don't confuse the Middle East.)

1239-42 Kay Khusrau II has to quell an upspring led by the popular preacher Baba Ishaq.

1240 (as OTL): Latin Empire meanwhile almost reduced to the capital. Choresm learns the secret of blackpowder (we remember).

1242: (Armenia not conquered by Mongols.)

1243: (Mongols don't attack Rum-Seljuks.)

1244 (as OTL): Jerusalem conquered by sultan as-Salih of Egypt. This was expectable, since the city lacked the hinterland for a better defense. Only difference to OTL: He uses Mamluk soldiers for the attack instead of hired Choresmians. The city is damaged less than IOTL.

1245: Nikaia makes a peace treaty with the Rum-Seljuks (as OTL); but since the latter aren't threatened by the Mongols, Nikaia has to pay a tribute.

1246: Little countries of the Zangids conquered by Choresm. Bulgaria defends better than OTL against Nikaia, keeps most of the conquered (former Byzantine) areas, has to cede only Adrianople and Athos.

1248-54 (as OTL): Sixth Crusade against Egypt stays without success.

1250 (as OTL): Mamluks under Aybak take power in Egypt. At the moment, he shares power with the widow of the last Ayyubid sultan, Shajar ad-Durr.

1253 (as OTL): Nikaia attacks Epiros / Thessalia. After hard fights they conquer Thessaloniki.

1254 (as OTL): After the death of Ioannis III. Vatatzes, Michael VIII. Palaiologos comes to power in Nikaia by a coup.

1255: Shah Jalal-ad-Din of Choresm dies. Some areas of his empire (Kara-Kitai, Afghanistan) break away. Kara-Kitai stay independent, but Afghanistan is pacified in the following years and stays in the fold.

1257 (as OTL): Shajar ad-Durr murdered after she has Aybak murdered. Qutuz becomes new sultan of Egypt.

1260: (Baibars I. does not become ruler of Egypt.) Mamluks attack Crusader states, conquer Gaza, Askalon and Jaffa (earlier than OTL).

Ah, and here's a map of the Middle East in 1260. The small states at the left side are the Crusader states.

[post=541337]Read the story here...[/post]

middle_east1260.png
 
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1.2 Western Europe 1200-1250
Western Europe 1200-1250:

(OK, it's the same as OTL, but I wanted to make a list in preparation for what comes later.)

1209-29: France eradicates the Albigensians.

1210: Roger Bacon born.

1214: Battle of Bouvines, France wins; Angevine Empire ends

1215: Magna Charta in England. 4th Lateran council. Teaching of Catharers and Waldensians condemned, Jews are forced to wear the infamous special hats.

1216: Order of the Dominicans founded.

1220-30: German Customary Law written down in the so-called Sachsenspiegel.

1221: Bonaventura (Franciscans) born.

1223: Franciscans acknowledged by the pope.

1225/26: Thomas of Aquin born.

1226: France becomes hereditary monarchy.

1227: Denmark loses Northern Germany in the Battle of Bornhöved. German poet Walther von der Vogelweide dies.

1229-35: Aragon conquers the Baleares.

1230: Castille united with Leon by Hernando III the Holy. He conquers Cordoba, Murcia, Jaen, Sevilla; Moslems reduced to Granada.

1231: Papal Inquisition created.

1246: The French side line Anjou founded. In the same year, they get the Provence.

1250: Holy Roman Emperor Friedrich II. dies. Birger Jarl ruler in Schweden. Portugal conquers the Algarve.


And BTW, the Americas and Oceania are unchanged too. Important events there:

1200: Cuzco founded

1250: Tenochca migrate to the valley of Mexico.
 
1.3 East Asia 1200-60
East Asia 1200-60

Some retcon for Choresm:
I wrote the TL entry and the story assuming that they didn't know gunpowder yet. The following article states, however, that the Muslims knew gunpowder in the 13th century already:
http://www.history-science-technology.com/Articles/articles 3.htm

Note my experiment with the font colors: Red is for events that happened IOTL but not here, blue is for events that happened IOTL and ITTL, and black is for all events which happen differently ITTL.

East Asia 1200-60:

1201/04?: Muslims start attacking Bengal, conquering it during the next decades, ending the Sena dynasty.

1203: Khmer ruler Jayavarman VIII occupies Champa (South Vietnam) and makes it a Khmer province.

1206: General Aibak takes power in the Sultanate of Delhi.

1211: Khitan chief Yelü Liuge doesn't revolt in Liaodong, and the general (and IOTL later warlord) Puxian Wannu doesn't have to fight him.

1213: Northern chinese (Jin) emperor Wányán Yǒngjì isn't killed, continues to reign twenty more years.

1214/15: Jin don't move their capital to Kaifeng, as they did IOTL.

1216: Chola Empire in South India falls apart, later to be replaced by the Pandyan Empire.

1220: Champa regains independence.

1223: Start of Japanese piracy.

1230s: Song don't cooperate with Mongols, don't win Kaifeng, Luoyang.

1232: The royal court of Goryeo stays in Songdo. In Japan, Joei Code (militarized Code of Law) is introduced.

1234: Goryeo creates the world's first metal-based movable type printing press. Jurchen / Jin Empire doesn't fall.

1235: Wányán Yǒngjì dies, is replaced by Wányán Shǒuxù.

1236: Raziah / Raziyyat becomes the first female sultan in Delhi, until she is toppled and killed in 1240.

1238: Two Thai chieftains, Pho Khun Pha Muang and Pho Khun Bang Klang Hao, declare their independence from the Khmer Empire and establish a Thai-ruled kingdom.

1244: Jin empire demands from Hsi-Hsia to pay them tribute. When the Tangutes (who have suffered under Ogedei's attacks only a few years ago) decline, the Jin decide to make war.

1247: War between Jin and Tangutes begins.

1249: Choe-U (the man behind the throne of Goryeo) dies, to be replaced by his son Choi Hang.

1250s: Various border clashes between Choresm and the Sultanate of Delhi.

1253: Kingdom of Dali in SW China survives.

1256: Hsi-Hsia are incorporated into North China again.

1258: No attack against Szechuan as OTL.

[post=546905]A bit of a story here...[/post]
 
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