Canadian Power: The Canadian Forces as a Major Power

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TheMann,

Is Canada getting any Aegis ships or AC-130 gunships? I'm thinking the gunships would fit your Canadian military. The Spanish and Japanese are also building Aegis ships.

What carrier replaces the Warrier? I believe the Forrestals were old and tired ships when the USN retired them.

Dilvish

PS I have to ask, is Defense Scheme No. 1 still in existance? :D:eek:

The 2010s will see the retirement of the Ontario and Manitoba-class destroyers, as they will be past 30 years old by then. An AEGIS ship will probably be on the cards at that point, but the Canucks will want to build it themselves. The destroyers they got were dirt-cheap, which is why they were bought. AC-130s probably not, as the US has never sold them to anybody, but they might be a useful thing that the Canucks can make themselves.......

Warrior was substantially rebuilt before it enters Canadian service. It's hull is old, but the Forrestal class is built tough, and almost everything else - engines, electronics, many mechanical components, HVAC systems, et cetera - are all new or fairly new in 1997. She'll be good to go for a while.

Defense Scheme #1? Are you kididng? The Canadian Forces, good as they are here, can't hope to stop the US Army sent out in force......;)
 
The Canadians may not need to get the AC-130 for a gunship. I believe one of the Twin Otter's ancesters was used as a USAF gunship in Vietnam. The Caribou, I think. The Canadians should be able to make their own gunships. Use the Twin Otters or buy extra C-130's.

The C-130s are being replaced by Airbus A400Ms made in Canada (The CC-176 Airmaster is the CF name for the A400M), so the used ones might be of service. Here, the demands of the conflict in Afghanistan (which goes rather different than in OTL......hint, hint ;)) force some of the H model C-130s back into service. The Twin Otter is another option, but a gunship needs to be something which can fly slowly and carry a substantial load at the same time, and the C-130 is the best combo of size and slow-flying ability.

I still have my doubts about Forrestal being good for so long; she has seen many decades of active service.

For most carriers, I would entirely see this point. But Forrestal, which was built 1951-1955, was substantially rebuilt after most of its back half was destroyed in the 1967 fire, and the vessel was seriously damaged by fire again in 1972. (This had also had the side effect of much of the electronics meant for Nimitz going to Forrestal instead, which is why Forrestal in later life had better electronics than Saratoga or Ranger - electronics which the Canucks continue to use in OTL.) Forrestal had its SLEP rework in 1983-85, and was refitted substantially again in 1994-97 by the Canadian Forces, which had learned many lessons from the task of keeping Eagle operational. All of the mechanicals on Warrior are new (she had the steam boilers replaced with gas turbines and turbo-diesel cruise engines), and so is much of the superstructure, along with its catapults (about the only steam-operated things on the vessel) and many of its interior fittings. The hull itself is 1950s vintage - but that's still 15 years newer (and much less used) than Eagle. I expect that Warrior's expected lifespan will allow it to serve until 2020 or so.

I also have my doubts about the F-14 airframes. My understanding is that the airframes were suffering from fatigue. I can't prove which one of us is right, so I'll leave it at that.

The IRIAF leaned heavily on its F-14 and F-4 fleets during the Iran-Iraq war, and they had their work cut out for them - they couldn't get replacement parts, among other things, and cannabalized much of what they had. Here, Canada has no problem with getting F-14 parts and they weren't ridden hard and put away wet as the Iranian F-14s were in OTL. They are gonna be getting a comprehensive upgrade (along with the F-18 fleet) in the early 21st Century. You're idea is certainly one to consider, and if Canada had bought them in 1990s then you would be quite right about airframe wear.

My next crazy idea. As long as Canada is buying old US capital ships, how about an Iowa to support the intervention troops? :D

The Iowas are museum ships post-1995. They may be reactivated at some time in the future, with Missouri getting a repreive for the operation in South Africa and some operations afterward. No Iowa will ever fly the CF flag, but I do think that there may be a need for them yet......;)
 
1996
1996 opened for Canada with the deployment of Canadian Forces to the Balkans, along with over 30 other countries, to try and keep the peace between the bitter hatreds of the various sides, especially the Croatians and Serbs, though the Bosniaks aren't exactly happy at the arrangement. Arrest warrants are issued for a number of the high-ranking perpetrators of the violence, though both Serbia and Croatia are very slow to comply, or in many cases with the Serbs outright refuse to hand over those responsible. The focus is on the Balkans, though that doesn't mean that the situations in Rwanda or South Africa have 100% stabilized - though the Federal Republic of South Africa is looking like a happy ending. Deployed to the Balkans is the Royal Canadian Regiment, with 4,500 of its members joining the IFOR force, which were deployed to Bosnia and Herzagovina. They are reported for duty on February 27, 1996, and remain through the IFOR period (which lasts until December 20, 1996). Canadian forces are part of the SFOR force, which lasts until the EUFOR Althea period begins in December 2004.

On January 31, 1996, another front opens up again. Two senior Bank of Canada officials are killed when an explosives-loaded truck rams through the gates of the Central Bank of Sri Lanka. They are among 92 people killed and 1,500+ injured. On February 2, Canada declares the Tamil Tigers a terrorist organization and seizes their assets in Canada, and declares that no LTTE member will be allowed clemency in Canada. This generates a highly-public disturbance in Toronto as a large group of Tamil protesters block Toronto's Gardiner Expressway, to the anger of hundreds of thousands of Toronto commuters, but their protests aren't able to overturn the designation. Ideas are floated to put troops as peacekeepers in Sri Lanka, but with the forces deployed in South Africa, Rwanda and Bosnia, the forces are alreadyt stretched thin - making Charest's 1994 decision to activate two infantry and two armor regiments look like a shrewd decision.

The biggest event in Canada in 1996 is the Toronto Olympics. Having narrowly topped Atlanta for the 1996 games, Toronto hosts with distinction - and shockingly, manages to do so almost entirely on budget. Prime Minister Jean Charest and Ontario Premier Mike Harris open the games, which are surprisingly successful for Canada, and go off without incident. Members of the Canadian Marine Corps are assigned to be an emergency assist to the authorities if they are needed, but that problem never arises. The games' opening ceremonies include a Snowbirds demonstration and six members of the Airborne Regiment jumping into Toronto's Olympic Stadium from a CF Hercules. Canadian national price runs astoundingly high following the successful games, even in Quebec where such nationalism had been on the wane since the 1980s.

With his popularity running very high over the games, Charest called an election for August 15, 1996. Charest went into the election with a lead on Liberal leader Chretien, and even more disastrously for Chretien his early bungling made for additional problems. An open revolt by several of his high-ranking members, including Brian Tobin, and the disastrous decision by Stephane Dion and Pierre Pettigrew to approve of Quebec's language police saw fire from all sides, with Reform MP Stephen Harper calling for Pettigrew to be censured by parliament for the decision. Charest's derision of Quebec nationalists costs him, however, and rising NDP support in Ontario - assisted, ironically, by hard-right Premier Harris and his quite open derision of Charest - costs him a majority. Charest returns to power with 140 of 301 seats, but the Liberal fighting, in a turn of events which stunned many, saw the NDP end up as official opposition, landing their best-ever result with 68 seats. The Liberals finished third with 55, with Reform and Bloc Quebecois getting the rest. Chretien was sacked as Liberal leader on September 19, 1996, despite his serious attempt to hang on.

The Navy was without its aircraft carrier, though few cared that the Canadian Forces were a frigate navy for now - all knew what was being readied for service in Saint John. Those people got a surprise when HMCS Warrior backed out of her dry-dock on the night of August 19, 1996, and drove off into the ocean for tests. The hope was that Warrior's departure would be fairly secret, but the Halifax Sun quickly jumped on it, along with sending it out over the Canadian Press. By mid-morning on August 20, the news of HMCS Warrior's being out testing was known across the country. The Maritime Command confirmed that Warrior's refit had been completed and that the vessel would be extensively tested before it would be commissioned. On the morning of August 28, the first aircraft to fly from Warrior - two squadrons each of CF-18 Hornets and two squadrons of CF-17 Corsair IIs, along with a pair of E-2C Hawkeye radar aircraft - depart from CFB Shearwater and fly to the carrier. All land safely, and the exercises in 1996 prove that Warrior's computerized engine controls and layout work well. The testing deployment of Warrior is also the last ride for a steam-powered combat warship of the Canadian Forces - the last two Annapolis-class destroyer escorts, HMCS Annapolis and HMCS Nipigon, are deactivated following Warrior's return home on October 10, 1996, and both are decommissioned on October 21, 1996.

Re-elected, and with an opposition that supports the military purchases if they create jobs, Charest announces that the Forces require a major helicopter upgrade, and that the contract is for:

- 30-35 heavy lift helicopters, with 10-12 being deployed to Warrior or the LPDs
- 50 anti-submarine helicopters
- 16 search and rescue helicopters
- 130 utility helicopters
- 35 reconaissance helicopters

This contract would be decided quickly, because the Forces' needed the helicopters ASAP, and the Forces' wanted as many jobs in Canada as possible, though all things would be considered.

The United States had two bids - a Bell/Boeing IDS and a Sikorsky/Lockheed Martin offer. Bell offered to build a highly-modified Variant of the Bell 412 for the utility and recon offers, while boeing offered the CH-47D Chinook as its heavy-lift offer. Sikorsky and Lockheed martin fired back with the UH-60 Black Hawk, SH-60 Seahawk and CH-53 Sea Stallion. The European offer included the AgustaWestland AW101, Aerospatiale Super Puma and Aerospatiale Super Frelon, showing that the Europeans had learned their lessons from past sales attempts where they interfered with each other. All offers included big industrial benefits.

Political considerations reared again here. The NDP backed the European offer, as Aerospatiale offered to build the helicopters in Ontario, as opposed to Bell making them in Quebec. This drew fire from the Liberals and Conservatives, accusing NDP leader Broadbent of putting his own riding's interest ahead of the country. (Harris, ironically, defended Broadbent here.) The US Army got into the act by offering to sell Canada 40 of its OH-58D Kiowa Warrior helicopters for the observation role, with them being rebuilt in Canada.

In the end, again looking to not infuriate everybody, Parliament and the DOD split the order. The rescue order went to AgustaWestland, which happily supplied 16 modified AW101s for the role, which became the CH-149 Comorant. Sikorsky was tasked with building 50 ASW helicopters, based on its promising S-92 design. Bell would supply 130 Bell 412s, with more powerful GE engines and many other upgrades, and would rebuild the 40 ex-US Army OH-58Ds, with as many commonalities between them as possible. Boeing was tasked to build 32 CH-47D Chinooks, with the option of buying the F model if desired. The neccessary papers were signed on October 10, 1996, with all aircraft to be delivered by late 2000.
 
I like it, TheMann, keep it up.

Out of curiosity do you know where would the Eagle likely be docked at in Vancouver?

Probably Deadman's Island. It's a historic CF installation as it is, and it's a good spot for it IMO. And UBC students can't hang VW Bugs off the carrier there, either......;)
 
1997
The biggest event of 1997 for the Forces was the commissioning of its new carrier, HMCS Warrior. After highly successful testing of the vessel and the proving of its ability to operate several types of aircraft, Warrior was declared ready for service in May 1997. The DOD and the Government, however, were keen to show off the carrier in Quebec as a way of combating the stronger separatist forces there, and as a result the commissioning of HMCS Warrior is held back until June 26, 1997. Commissioned in Quebec City by Prime Minister Charest, the carrier is in Charest's words, "the symbol of the strength of our nation and its people, all of its people." Warrior is by a huge margin the largest vessel to serve Canada, and is also the largest vessel to ever serve a nation of the British Commonwealth.

Warrior's first duty after commissioning is also a landmark. Departing Quebec City on July 2, the massive carrier and her battle group sailed to the Mediterranean, in order to take over the duty of supporting the Canadian and IFOR forces in the Balkans. But on July 22, that mission takes a right turn. American carrier USS George Washington, which had been at station there, suffers a massive fire caused by a electrical short, causing substantial damage and eliminating most of the carrier's food supplies and seriously damaging many of the carrier's electronics. Needing repairs, George Washington has to go home, but the American forces do not want to lose EW support. In a landmark decision, the Americans deploy five EA-6B Prowler electronic warfare aircraft to the Canadian carrier, leaving Warrior in charge of ensuring the air support in the area. Six days later, the Canadian and American forces are joined by a Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm squadron, 733 Squadron, which flies the Tornado RN.4 ground-attack aircraft. The extra twenty-one aircraft from the Americans and the British are easily accomodated on the Canadian carrier, with its 55-aircraft strong air wing. The carrier also takes delivery of the first CH-149 Comorant helicopter from AgustaWestland, which flies directly to Warrior from a base in Italy. The carrier holds the duties well until September 28, when HMS Ark Royal arrives to support Warrior, and the carrier is finally relieved by USS Nimitz on October 11.

The MARCOM is rightly proud of its performance in the Mediterranean, but it also teaches a few lessons. The MARCOM learns that its Hornet/Corsair II air wing is effective, but the EW aircraft are incredibly useful and the RN's Tornado attack aircraft have somewhat longer legs and a considerably bigger payload than the Corsair IIs. The MARCOM also been debated about using some of the Air Command's F-14s on the carrier. The ideas and plans run through 1997 and 1998, as ideas and proposals are batted around.

For the Forces on land, the 1997 sees some of the new helicopters ordered in 1996 arrive in late 1997. The first Globemaster ordered by the CF also delivers the first two OH-58D Kiowa Warrior helicopters used by the CF, which are delivered directly to the Forces in Bosnia in November 1997. The forces in Bosnia are working well, though it is clear that tensions remain. The hope for a happy end as was clearly happening in South Africa were non-existent in the Balkans. 1997 saw the deaths of ANC leaders Oliver Tambo, who died of a stroke at the age of 80, and Chris Hani, who died in a car accident in Johannesburg. Both deaths, however, proved to be sad for South Africans, but the expected civil unrest problems did not surface.

At home, the first of the reactivated units is the Voltigeurs de Quebec, which stands to in March 25, 1997, complete with M2 Bradley, LAV III, M113 and Bison and Grizzly AVGP vehicles. The plan to reactivated the units to be ready for combat usage was delayed by the delivery of the new vehicles. A month later, the reactivated Ontario Regiment of the RCAC did its first parade through its hometown of Oshawa, Ontario, though it had yet to be assigned its vehicles. The Land Force said at this point that it expected to be at full strength by the end of 1998, as its vehicles were delivered. The first deployment of the Voltigeurs, however, is inside Canada - assisting the authorities in helping people during the devastating Red River Floods of 1997.

The Floods saw the first deployment for the DART team, which very much helps in cleaning up the mess in Manitoba. This is the first of a series of high-profile events which show off the Forces' abilities to help Canadians in times of need.

1997 also had a surprise for the Forces in the media, and it started in the United States. High-profile bomber pilot Kelly Flinn was discharged from the USAF in May, avoiding a court-martial for conduct violations and disobeying a written order to avoid a soccer coach who she had been having an affair with. Three months, Lieutenant Flinn walked into a recruiting station for the Canadian Forces in Vancouver, British Columbia, offering to join the Canadian Forces.

The CF had for many years allowed foreigners to enlist in the CF if they wished, though Americans were rare in this process. The decision of Lieutenant Flinn to try made headlines across Canada, and caused questions to be raised. Flinn had been discharged instead of facing a court-martial, but her high profile and previous training, combined with the fact her charges were for little more than common adultery, fought against this. The USAF did not object to the idea, somewhat to surprise of many in the CF. Some CF officials like the idea due to Flinn's profile and her pilot abilities. Flinn is allowed to enlist, but has to retrain to fly any of the CF's aircraft. Flinn becomes mission-qualified in the CC-150 in August 1998, having cleared the training programs for the Forces. Flinn, as with her service in the USAF, gladly works as a recruiting tool. On September 28, 1997, after it is confirmed that she will be allowed to enlist despite her previous charges, she tearfully apologies on national television to her colleagues in the USAF, and thanks the Forces and the people of Canada for her "second chance".

In politics, the minority government led by Charest is still standing, though an agreement by the four opposition parties makes taking them down possible, though highly unlikely - the chances of PQ leader Gilles Duceppe and Reform leader Preston Manning agreeing on anything are slim, and all know it - and all four parties would be needed to take down the government. Charest knows this, and the Progressive Conservatives have not forgotten Joe Clark's inglorious end in 1979 - they do not wish to face that same fate.

Jean Chretien's repalcement as Liberal leader at the federal level is one of his most promising MPs, Brian Tobin of Newfoundland. The contest proves to be as acriomonious as Chretien's end, as Tobin successfully fights off a determined attempt by supporters of Liberal Finance Critic Paul Martin to take over the leadership. Tobin, realizing Charest has substantial ownership of the center and knowing that the NDP is outflanking them, quickly begins talks for an alliance or even a merger with the NDP. NDP leader Broadbent is willing to consider a parliamentary alliance, but will not consider a party merger under any circumstances. His ideals are shared by much of his party's upper leadership.

On November 2, 1997, however, a curve-ball gets thrown into it, and it does involve the Forces. The Forces had asked for proposals for a sealift ship, in order to allow rapid movement of vehicles. With the money allocated and with the plans laid out, the Forces combine the Sealift Ship and refueling vessel programs into one and ask Parliament for approval. BQ leader Duceppe demanded that the vessel be built in Quebec, or he would not support it. But Charest retorts, pointing out that Quebec workers already are making hundreds of millions in equipment for the Forces. The BQ manages to get the support of the Liberals and NDP for its demands (the NDP, seeing its approval ratings in Quebec in electable territory for the first time ever, is hoping to make inroads and perhaps even start electing Quebecer MPs). The 17-seat Reform Party plays both sides, trying to get a deal across. This side-playing infuriates Charest, who openly accuses Manning of selling out his ideals, pointing out that in 1995 he has sworn to NEVER work with the separatists.

Manning, disgusted, jumps with the other parties. Liberal leader Tobin quickly brings a no-confidence motion before parliament, hoping to get all four parties to support it, hoping to get the motion passed - the Liberals seeing their support higher than it had been in a decade and hoping to make hay out of it. The measure passes, but it is entirely because of the Reform MPs - several of whom then say their decision to vote for the no-confidence motion was because the Progressive Conservatives were too liberal, and that "real conservatism needs to be brought to the psuedo-Conservatives.

Charest calls an election as demanded, but its clear from the word go that he was pissed off. His fire was largely aimed at the Reform Party, who Charest said "are willing to toss their principles to get power." The BQ also gets off to a bad start, its 22-seat caucus looking vulnerable, particularly as the Liberals were making substantial headway.

From the word go, a majority government looks impossible. Charest proves to be highly effective on the campaign trail, but Tobin isn't much worse. The Liberals look ready to make big gains, but at the expense of the NDP and Conservatives.

The election, held on December 11, 1997, sees Charest returned to power again, but his 140 seats is cut down to 122, while the Liberals power from 55 to 87. The NDP falls from 68 to 61, losing the official opposition spot. Reform and the BQ fare badly, falling respectively from 17 and 22 to 12 and 19, respectively. But the election reveals that the NDP hs truly gone national, with two MPs elected form Quebec, and that the Liberals were back on form. Charest also faces a big problem post-election - a Liberal-NDP coalition would need just three votes to be able to overturn him, three votes that some PC insiders fear could come from them.

The NDP shortly after the election hits an end of an era, as Broadbent announces he is considering retirement after 22 years of leading the NDP.
 
1998
1998 would be for different people both the best and worst of years, but it started off badly.

A horrific ice storm struck eastern Ontario and much of southern Quebec, starting on January 4 and running for a full week, dumping as much as 150mm of ice over just about everything east of Kingston, Ontario, causing wholesale destruction of the area's power grids and infrastructure. Montreal, Ottawa, Brockville, Cornwall and Sherbrooke are hammered, with life coming to a virtual halt across the area.

Ontario and Quebec both request federal assistance, and get it, and the Forces are mobilized to help. Leading the charge here is the Marine Corps, which sets up its HQ in Cornwall, Ontario, to co-ordinate efforts. Other assistance is used, too. Power crews from as far away as Alberta and brought to the scene, in at least one case their equipment being hauled in by Air Command C-130s. CF maritime patrol and reconaissance aircraft are used to catalogue the damage and plot reconstruction efforts, and in many remote cases the repair crews were lifted to the scene by helicopter. Dozens of CN Rail locomotives are used as emergency generators, providing power to residents in southern Quebec. Even more amazing was spontaneous responses, the most famous of which was the "Montreal Convoy". This convoy, made up of over 700 vehicles, was lined up at Pearson Airport in Toronto in the early moning of January 13 and drove, escorted, to Kingston, with over 6,000 tons of supplies and 3,200 volunteers, all of which had been donated by people. The over 500 trucks and 35 buses involved in the convoy were all driven by volunteers, as well.

The support went south of the border too. The Ontario RCAC volunteered to assist in the New York National Guard in cleanup efforts in upstate New York, and when the help was accepted US Army helicopters and aircraft moved the equipment needed from the regiment's HQ in Oshawa, Ontario. The Americans returned the favor in helping repair damage in Quebec and Ontario, with American crews coming from as far away as Indiana and North Carolina. The whole effort was a media circus, aided and abetting by the Governors of New York and Maine and the Canadian premiers. Both PM Charest and NDP leader Broadbent came to the scene, and both demanded to actually help the situation rather than just be there for PR, and Broadbent even got a battle scar - he broke his hip on a ice-slickened concrete step, falling while helping two others carry an elderly woman out of a nursing home in Gananoque, Ontario.

The vast effort is instrumental in changing public opinion in Quebec. support for separatism falls dramatically after the response to the ice storm, and the Patri Quebecois is booted out of power in Quebec in the elections held in August 1998 - despite Liberal leader Daniel Johnson's expected resignation, which doesn't happen much to the PQ's chargin.

Politically, Canada enters 1998 with a changed government. Charest shuffles his cabinet to bring in new members Peter MacKay and Andre Bachand, and shuffles it again in May when Stephen Harper swtiches sides, to the shock and disgust of the Reform Party, which had been hoping to have Harper succeed Preston Manning. Charest's government is considered by many to be one of the most full of talent in Canadian history, and gets boosted again in late 1998 when Brian Mulroney announces he will try to return to politics, nearly six years after he resigned to save his party from electoral demolition. PC MP Alan Raymond offers to resign to allow Mulroney to return, but Mulroney doesn't go for it, to the surprise of many.

The NDP reaches an end of an era on February 25, when Broadbent announces his retirement for real. A leadership campaign follows, and the winner is charismatic Toronto MP Jack Layton, a former Toronto city councillor, who takes over the role as party leader on July 20, 1998. Layton and Liberal leader Brian Tobin are a natural fit, but both are astute enough to know when to not rock the boat. They are a vicious opposition to Charest's Conservatives, but they do not actually attempt to overturn his government through 1998.

September sees tragedy strike Canada again, as a Swissair McDonnell Douglas MD-11 suffers major mechanical problems and crashes off of Peggy's Cove, Nova Scotia on September 2, 1998. In a act which would prove to be almost legendary, ATC Moncton was contacted by American destroyer USS Arleigh Burke, which had seen the struggling airliner while on a training exercise. The destroyer also promptly contacted the Forces command in Halifax. The MD-11 struck the water less than three miles from HMCS Huron, which was notified step-by-step by the American destroyer and powered to the scene, hoping to help in the potential rescue. Flight 111 landed badly and disintegrated on impact, but Huron's Sea King helicopter was less than half a mile away from the crash and was able to pick up survivors. Both navies' vessels raced to the scene, and helicopters from both Huron and Arleigh Burke were able to pull eleven survivors from the water. Eight of those rescued would survive, one after spending nearly three months in a Halifax hospital.

The story makes headlines around the world, and the flight crew of Huron's helicopter receive medals for their courage. President Clinton awards both Arleigh Burke and Huron Presidential Unit Citations for their work - the first time a foreign vessel had been awarded such a citation by the United States. The Forces would use a situation similar to what happened to Flight 111 in its recuiting posters in years to come, as an example of the reason why having effective military forces is good for Canada.

Internationally, HMCS Ontario's crew offers to let the ship be used as the meeting and negotiation place for the talks between the various parties in Northern Island, pointing out that the Irish nationalists would not trust it being held on a British vessel or on land, and pointed out that Canada had traditionally been neutral in disputes. The offer is declined, but after the Good Friday Agreement is signed, Ontario does see service for negotiations between the other parties and the DUP, which doesn't sign the Good Friday Agreement.

On the procurement front, Europe saw the first flight of the Airbus A400M and the first run of the Pratt and Whitney PW180AM engine, which would power the A400M. The PW180AM, a powerful turboprop, produces 8,600 kW (11,530 hp) in its ready form, which is quite sufficient for the A400M. The program is running somewhat behind schedule, but the aircraft makes its first flight on its original SNECMA M138 turbofans in December 1998. But the program's slow process leads to concerns in Ottawa. A proposal circulated through 1998 proposes to rebuild the Forces' C-130 fleet, including fitting them with PW180 engines.

The debate over Warrior's Air Wing also is debated viciously through 1998, with the Forces and many commentators saying that the CF needed to invest in electronic warfare aircraft and longer-ranged attack aircraft, along with aerial refueling tankers. The Royal Navy, facing budget cuts of its own, offers to sell some of its RN.4 Tornado attack aircraft to the Canadian Forces in May 1998, which opened a stampede. The US Navy also offers up its A-6 Intruder attack aircraft (which is being retired at this point) and its electronic warfare derivative, the EA-6 Prowler. The Intruder and Tornado are comparable aircraft, though the Forces prefers the two-seat Tornados. On September 16, 1998, the Forces announces the purchase of 24 RN.4 Tornado two-seat attack aircraft to equip the carrier. In a move that surprises some, twelve aviators of the Royal Navy's Fleet Air Arm request to move to the Canadian Forces to fly for the Canadians. Both sides agrees to the request. The Tornados would first be assigned on Warrior in March 1999.

The other big news is the laying down of the two landing platform docks for the Maritime Command, to be named after two famous Canadian tall ships, Bluenose and Challenge. Laid down at MIL Davie Shipbuilding in Lauzon, Quebec and Great Breton Shipyards in Sydney, Nova Scotia. Both are laid down within days of each other in May 1998, both set for delivery in mid to late 2000.
 
Hmmm... Looks like much of the current Gov't (as of 2009/10) are in Charest's Cabinet. Considering how fast the Reform Party ITTL is sinking, who else will defect to the PCs?

It has many of the current government guys, yes. But not all. Stephen Harper, Rob Nicholson, Jean-Pierre Blackburn, Peter MacKay, Jay Hill and Gordon O'Connor are members of Charest's cabinet at the end of 1998. O'Connor is the deputy Minister of National Defense (Kim Campbell is his boss), and MacKay is the deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs (his boss is John Crosbie - for now). I don't see many more of the Reform guys going to the PCs - Harper, for all his faults, primarily thinks in terms of economics, not social policy or federalism policies, which was the primary difference between the Reform Party and the Progressive Conservatives In OTL. Harper and MacKay will eventually be Finance Minister and Foreign Minister, respectively.

Stockwell Day, Jason Kenney, Monte Solberg and Chuck Strahl are in the Reform Party, but here its back to its roots as a regional party as the PCs have regained the center-right, and as those four are far more socially conservative than even many of the current OTL Conservatives, I don't see them jumping to the PCs. Not being annihalated in 1993 changed things dramatically for the federal Conservatives. Jim Flaherty is the Finance Minister in Ontario, Tony Clement is the Ontario Health Minister and John Baird is an Ontario MPP (in all three cases, as in OTL in 1998). Prentice is an MP but not a cabinet minister, Lawrence Cannon and Josee Verner are Quebec National Assembly members. Several others - Bernier, Aglukkaq, Raitt, Emerson, Kent, Ambrose - aren't in politics in 1998. (Though several of them will be.)

However, IIRC, Swissair 111 plunged to the sea headfirst, which is really hard to survive. Any Explanations.

The co-pilot of Swissair 111 was still at the controls when the plane hit the water, so I just changed history a bit and had the plane land hard on its belly rather than go in nose-first. It still breaks up when it hits the water, but especially for those at the back of the aircraft, the crash is much less violent and as a result there are survivors. The eight survivors are all seriously injured, but all do survive - entirely due to the actions of the crews on Huron and Arleigh Burke. OK, it's not entirely as it happened IOTL, but its not that much of a change. :)

Also, In terms of the Warrior's future air group, they will still are lacking in EW aircraft. Any fix for that?

Coming soon, probably in 1999. They will be EA-6Bs, refitted with F404 engines like the Hornets, and a whack of Canadian electronics.
 
Ming777 - Nice work. Warrior also has the crane on the starboard side rear moved to the front, and the flight deck enlarged back there, while the angled flight deck is lengthened about 40 feet. The port-side front elevator is also gone (it's useless in this case), the tower looks almost the same as the FS Charles de Gaulle:

charlesdegaulle6.jpg


Though Warrior has exhaust stacks venting sideways off the starboard side, similar to that on USS John F. Kennedy. The Sea Sparrow Launchers and Phalanx CIWS systems will be replaced in the early 2000s by Mk-41 VLS systems and Goalkeeper CIWS systems. I am impressed, though. I've been trying to find a good drawing of Forrestal on shipbucket and not having much luck. :eek:
 
1999 (Part 1)
1999 was the last year of the 20th Century, and it would for the Canadian Forces be forever referred to as the "Year of Destiny". With a name like that, one would expect it to be a big, important year, and so it was.

The biggest events of the year began in January, when a group of Canadian aerospace engineers, many of them having experience with Boeing, Airbus, Bombardier and others, formed a small consulting company in Toronto, named the North American Avro Aircraft Company. The company's name was of course a harbringer to what was to come.

In March, this small group submitted a proposal to Gordon O'Connor, a former Brigadier and now the deputy Minister of National Defense. The case the company made was that the Canadian Forces had built a substantial electronics industry partly as a result of the rebuilding of HMCS Warrior and the upgrades to many aircraft, along with a growing industry building other products that catered to the Forces, and that the country could easily build many of its own aircraft and military gear. And the proposal that the company specifically focused on was the Avro Arrow.

The Arrow is, of course, a Canadian legend. Perhaps the best fighter aircraft in the world when shown off in 1957, the government cancellation of it in 1959 is said to have been one of the biggest losses in the history of Canadian aerospace. But with upgrade programs underway with Canadian companies for the Hornet and Tomcat aircraft flown by the CF, the advisors raised the idea of resurrecting the Arrow, taking the basic design and improving it with new materials and design knowledge. The first plan would see the Arrow Mk3 carry many of the similar electronics from the Tomcat and Corsair II, making a very effective multi-role aircraft. But the Mk4, which would use Canadian electronics, some aerodynamic changes and Canadian-made electronics, would be the ultimate Arrow.

O'Connor quickly brought this to Defense Minister Kim Campbell, who loved the idea and quickly explained it to the Cabinet. All liked the idea, but most expressed concerns about the cost. Even the most mild variant would cost hundreds of millions to develop, to do the job that the Tomcat could already do. But the argument in favor was that this would create a real Canadian aerospace defense industry. The debate raged on through May 1999, but then got changed.

On May 26, 1999, the proposal was leaked to the Canadian media. Speculation to this day remains about who did it, but most figure it was North American Avro who leaked the info of the program to the media. But the storm was immense, and the Canadian public themselves responded. On May 27, 1999, the leadline of the National Post was "The Arrow Lives!", and the similar viceral reaction was almost universal. Even commentators who usually were not as pro-military quickly responded to this, saying that the Forces should build the aircraft.

The debate through June was focused on how much it would cost to build the Arrow, and all expected the costs of development to be in the billions. But even the most pessimistic commentators pointed out that the program would create tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of jobs, and spending such money to develop the Arrow was better spent in Canada than buying upgrades or new equipment from abroad. All five parties in Ottawa expressed support for the idea, though Reform and BQ support was somewhat tempered by cost concerns and the BQ's trademark "what's in it for Quebec?" attitude.

Sensing the support, Ontario Premier Mike Harris his Quebec counterpart, Daniel Johnson, made the first moves - an agreement between North American Avro and Bombardier Aerospace to build the Arrow, with the first development moneys coming from Queens Park and Quebec City. That deal was signed on June 25, 1999, and the development began again.

On July 1, in a Canada Day speech broadcast across the country, Charest emphatically made it official - "We will build the Arrow!" was in his speech, and was a key portion of the speech sent out to the Forces members. The legislation to provide the funding from the DND was introduced on July 5, 1999, and passed easily on July 21. The project was real, and it was underway, and the legend of the air from Canada would fly again.

The first task was an agreement to get the technology from the American-sourced aircraft so that it could be used on the Arrow. Expectations of problems proved to be for not, and the negotiations turned out to be a formality. General Electric offered the Arrow the F110-GE-132 engine, designed for the F-16, which produced an amazing 32,500 lb of thrust, more than two and a half times the thrust of the Pratt and Whitney J75 engines flown on in 1958. The upgrades for the Mk3 would include CF-18-style leading edge extensions, a slightly larger nose for the APG-71 radars, through this would be upgraded to the APG-79 before the aircraft ever flew. The Aluminum skin would remain, but extensive use of titanium, ceramics and carbon-fibre in the new design would theoretically allow the weight of the Arrow to drop from the 49,000 lb original weight to as low as 37,000 lbs, and also allow carriage of as much as 25,000 lbs of ordinance. The new design, some commentators said, would be less an agile fighter and more of a strike aircraft or interceptor. But that still made headlines, and it stunned much of the world, not just Canada......
 
Russell, the point of the Arrow program is to take a design that already works (and flew) and use it as a base. The idea here is to take what worked and make it work again.

The Arrow has a few benefits, too. It's a large aircraft with a large fuel load (designed for 350-mile ranges with afterburning Iroquois engines - which means add 75% at least for late-model turbofans), which could see usage as a strike fighter and interceptor. (Most of those uses ITTL are being filled by the Tomcat, which was in development just a decade later than the Arrow. And yes, it was revolutionary in 1957 - but the same design fundamentals are still good today. The Arrow's maneuveraility wouldn't be matched by the CF-104 or CF-101, and the low wing loading and massive wing surfaces gave excellent control. Combined with efficient aerodynamics and internal weapons carriage, with modern engines the Arrow could easily achieve supercruise. It won't be state of the Art, but the new Arrow will bust the chops of the F-14 at the job it was designed for. The Arrow Mk3 will share very little with the Arrow of the 1950s besides the basic shape, and that's only done to speed development.

The 21st Century Arrow won't be made in large numbers, just enough to get Canadian industry familiar with building a new plane and giving design data. That and the upgrades to the F-14, F/A-18 and A-7 fleet being undertaken in the 2000s will be a warmup. The F-35 here will have major involvement by Canadian firms in the design, development and production stages. And BTW, enough of the data remains that 1:1 replica of it was built for a Canadian museum, so I don't think its all gone.
 
The Arrow...

My grandparents talk about how they couldn't get radio reception in Marston due to all the US job adds being broadcast from accross the lake drowning out local stations...

It's a great idea...but cost wise...damn...

what happens if much of the engineering and other design work is done on a gratis basis in return for recognition of contribution? I know in the video game world people take an exsisting concept and modify it free which are sometime brought into the final project in return for recognition in the credits. The great Canadian University engineering challange?

Keep it up

Cost wise, its expensive. But as the guts are off-the-shelf stuff, and the design already exists, it's not THAT expensive. As I pointed out in my other post, its not that big of a challenge. And I did have the idea of Canada's Forces professionals and universities kicking in to this, as a massive challenge for all of Canada. The Arrow is a legend in Canada, and as the basic design worked quite well and modern updates will undoubtedly make considerable improvements to that design, what we'll get is more of a showcase, a news-maker and a test bed more than anything else - but it will still be a fully combat-capable aircraft.
 
I can see as a pre-production testing group (maximum 20 aircraft), but few would ever fly; most would quickly end up as aforementioned testbeds, but mostly museum and university pieces. Most likely, they will never see action (see F-22s; never deployed to active combat). At most, they could become a demo squadron, (White Arrows perhaps?), or intercept a ew bombers just for publicity.

You are about right. I am planning one operational squadron for the Arrow, which will be busy and operating but not a big bunch. I'm anticipating 25 aircraft built, at most. That does NOT mean however, that they will not be involved in combat actions. They won't see Afghanistan, but they will see combat action.
 
Oh, and BTW, the final specs for the North American Avro CF-105 Arrow Mark III:

Type: Multi-role strike aircraft/interceptor
Manufacturers: North American Avro, Bombardier Aerospace

Specifications
Crew: 2 (pilot and RIO/bombardier)
Length: 77 ft 9 in
Wingspan: 50 ft 0 in
Height: 20 ft 6 in
Wing Area: 1321 ft² (122.72 m²)
Airfoil: NACA 0003.5 mod root, NACA 0003.8 tip
Weight (empty): 36,410 lb (16,550 kg)
Weight (loaded): 60,135 lb (27,278 kg)
Weight (MTOW): 74,000 lb (33,567 kg)

Powerplant: 2x General Electric F110-GE-132 afterburning turbofans
Thrust (dry): 20,200 lbf (89.6 kN)
Thrust (reheat): 32,000 lbf (142 kN)
Thrust/Weight (loaded): 1.064

Performance
Maximum Speed: Mach 2.46 (1,640 mph, 2,640 km/h) at 50,000 ft (15,000 m)
Supercruise: Mach 1.22 (814 mph, 1,309 km/h) at 40,000 ft (12,000 m)
Combat Range: 545 nm (621 mi, 1,000 km)
Ferry Range (including two external fuel tanks): 2,800 nm (3,190 mi, 5,130 km)
Service Ceiling: 65,000 ft (19,500 m)
Wing Loading (loaded): 45.5 lb/ft² (222.3 kg/m²)

Armament
1 Internal Bomb Bay plus 8 hardpoints (2 under wing extensions, 4 under wings, 2 on wingtips) for up to 23,000 lbs of ordinance
- Missiles: AIM-9 Sidewinder, AIM-120 AMRAAM, AGM-65 Maverick, AGM-84 Harpoon, AGM-119 Penguin, AGM-158 JASSM, Taurus KEPD 350
- Bombs: GBU-31/-32/-35/-38 laser-guided bombs, GBU-39 SDB, GBU-10/-12/-24/-27 Paveway bombs, GBU-15 glide bombs, Mk-82/-84 general-purpose bombs
 
I see, so more or less the occasional tour of action, but normally just for publicity (ie, escorting the CC-180 Commander that we still need to procure ;))

You got it. :D The Arrow here will be mostly staying at home and doing publicity work (air shows, fly-overs at events and the like), but if the need arises......I am planning one squadron of 24 aircraft, and a handful painted up in the bright white of the old school colors, for show and ceremonial duties (such as escorting the Prime Minister ;)). They'll probably be based at CFB Trenton, because there is lots of room at the base, but they'll cycle around.

How would you attempt to create the island structure? Since CdGaulle is a nuclear carrier, only parts of the island can be used, not to mention the helo deck in the aft section.

I'm working on it.
 
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