Build your own Luftwaffe

[juanml82]

I don't know enough about specific engines and prototype fighters. Adding my $ 0.05 I'd say:

Correct the torpedoes, develop an anti-shipping doctrine/training based on using the Ju88 (I guess). Move on to develop guided bombs.
Use of drop tanks and mid air refueling. Should require early development of heavier cargo aircraft.
Early awacs, specially to accompany bombers. Can the Germans also use them to spot convoys in the Atlantic with the technology of that time?
Work with the Japanese to get a variant of the Zero as a useful bomber escort for the European theatre. Probably politically difficult and might not be that long ranged once armour is added to it.
Don't bother trying to make a dive bomber out of the Ju88
Not sure if heavy bombers would actually help - without them, the LW can get more lighter tactical bombers
Rotate pilots
Don't bother with a carrier and it's associated aircraft. Long range fighters and medium bombers can replace it in the areas where Germany would be using it anyway.

 

[Detlef]

That's the problem with the raw materials crisis and why the 4 years plan was created. Its just not possible financially.

Not financially, you´re right.
But up to the late 1930s we did have Sino-German cooperation.
Essentially German military and industrial advisers and industrial help in return for raw materials (tungsten for example). That only stopped when Hitler finally chose to get closer to Japan.
If you don´t want to change that then a more streamlined and efficient production of military equipment in Germany might be used to sell some military equipment in exchange for raw materials from other countries?
Of course that won´t be enough to create a large reserve. But it might be more than in OTL?

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Not financially, you´re right.
But up to the late 1930s we did have Sino-German cooperation.
Essentially German military and industrial advisers and industrial help in return for raw materials (tungsten for example). That only stopped when Hitler finally chose to get closer to Japan.
If you don´t want to change that then a more streamlined and efficient production of military equipment in Germany might be used to sell some military equipment in exchange for raw materials from other countries?
Of course that won´t be enough to create a large reserve. But it might be more than in OTL?

It depends on how many nations were interested in buying German military equipment after having lost in WW1 and just recently gained the right to start to make modern equipment again. Some nations probably would have thought that it wouldn't be worth buying German gear rather than French, British, or US. Not only that but in the middle of the Great Depression they were more interested in making money because they were broke.
Plus trading away equipment for raw materials meant the Germans wouldn't have the fruits of their own production for their rearmament, which is why IOTL the Luftwaffe outlawed private industry from selling up-to-date German equipment on the foreign market.

Well, assuming that your production plan is officially accepted wouldn´t it make more sense to retrain precious pilots to fly more modern airplanes?

My production plan is coupled with building up the training establishment, so if all goes as planned they wouldn't need to worry about that.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I don't know enough about specific engines and prototype fighters. Adding my $ 0.05 I'd say:

Correct the torpedoes,

It took a while, so better to just buy Italian Fiume torps before the war.

develop an anti-shipping doctrine/training based on using the Ju88 (I guess).

They pretty much did, but the didn't have the Ju88 pre-war because of several issues, so better to start with the HE111 which they did have.

Move on to develop guided bombs.

They did.

Use of drop tanks and mid air refueling. Should require early development of heavier cargo aircraft.

The Luftwaffe remained unconvinced about the safety of this, as it really had not be developed by anyone at this point. There is just too much hindsight required to force any nation to develop this skill/technology until late in the war/after.

Early awacs, specially to accompany bombers. Can the Germans also use them to spot convoys in the Atlantic with the technology of that time?

The technology wasn't developed until during the war. From 1942 the Germans had it, but the basic tech could have been started in 1938 if they thought along those lines...not sure how to get that to happen though.
And yes, they did once they developed airborne radar, but they weren't thinking in those terms until 1941.

Work with the Japanese to get a variant of the Zero as a useful bomber escort for the European theatre. Probably politically difficult and might not be that long ranged once armour is added to it.

The Zero was useless for the European conflict where range wasn't an issue, but armor, armament, and speed were. The Zero is pointless for the Germans to ask for, as it would have been a hindrance, not a help, as the US demonstrated with their slaughter of it because of their better armor, speed, and guns.

Don't bother trying to make a dive bomber out of the Ju88

Get Udet out of the way and no problem.

Not sure if heavy bombers would actually help - without them, the LW can get more lighter tactical bombers

It would help in some ways; they could really have had both if they got their industry in order before and during the war, but they didn't IOTL until 1942.

Rotate pilots

They needed enough to be able to rotate them, which meant taking a break at some point during the build up to build up the training establishment, rather than pushing all the new pilots into expansion of combat units. The plans they used IOTL resulted in the inability to rotate because they went all in to win campaigns and pre-war to maximize their numbers of combat pilots, even going so far as to raid training establishments for pilots as needed.

Don't bother with a carrier and it's associated aircraft. Long range fighters and medium bombers can replace it in the areas where Germany would be using it anyway.

No argument there, but I'd go farther and suggest no Plan Z at all.

 

[Chris Triangle]

Well, assuming that your production plan is officially accepted wouldn´t it make more sense to retrain precious pilots to fly more modern airplanes?

I agree. Numbers and ease of production are important but they aren't everything and that plane had to go. Resources are precious, pilots even more so and wasting their lives in such helpless planes will come back to bite you. Just look at what happened to the Japanese. Besides, unlike humans planes are recycleble.

 

[Chris Triangle]

The Zero was useless for the European conflict where range wasn't an issue, but armor, armament, and speed were. The Zero is pointless for the Germans to ask for, as it would have been a hindrance, not a help, as the US demonstrated with their slaughter of it because of their better armor, speed, and guns.

How can you say range wasn't a big issue?! What ever happened to fighter escort?

 

[Deleted member 1487]

How can you say range wasn't a big issue?! What ever happened to fighter escort?

Considering pre-war requirements were well within the short range of the Me109, I'd say that the requirements for range made the benefits of the Zero pointless for procurement. I'm not saying that range wasn't important, but looking at the requirements issued and priorities of the Luftwaffe IOTL before and after Wever made it seem like fighter range was secondary to survivability and firepower.

 

[paulo]

just a few

Pushing for the evolution of the DB601 into the DB605.

Give funds and priority to Mauser to develop the MG213 and MG213C - the first 20mm and 30mm revolver cannon.

Replace the MG17 - 7.92mm MG with the MG131 - 13mm

Development of the Minengeschoss also a priority.

Not also the radars in centimetric, but also the navigation aids.

Research in IR tracking for night-fighters - OTL is a low priority.

training training training - OTL LW as a serious problem of training very few pilots.

Rotating Experten (AKA aces) to give hard learned lessons to the new pilots.

 

[AdA]

Zero issues

The problem with the Zero thing (my first thread a couple of years ago...) is that the timing is off. The Zero only matured as a fighter after BoB was over. But when the IJAAF attacked Australia, their Oscars did quite well against defending Spitfire V, and despite overinflated wartime claims to the contrary, the first Spitfire that really had an edge over Japanese fighters was the MkVIII. (or IX, of course). The Zero and Oscar only became easy preys when the US introduced aircraft that had 2000HP and were either much faster, or could outdive them. The Spitfire thing in 1940 was turning, and that was the Zero's main strengh.
So if we time warp Zero's to BoB, the Spitfire MkI and the Hurricane are not gong to do well...

 

[juanml82]

Considering pre-war requirements were well within the short range of the Me109, I'd say that the requirements for range made the benefits of the Zero pointless for procurement. I'm not saying that range wasn't important, but looking at the requirements issued and priorities of the Luftwaffe IOTL before and after Wever made it seem like fighter range was secondary to survivability and firepower.

The thing is, with hindsight, the LW needed an agile long range fighter to escort bombers. The Zero is a good start, and probably also some German prototypes also are. Of course, the OTL Zero which flew in the Pacific (and was a success against P40s and Wildcats) would have been a disaster over the midlands. But something was needed.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

The thing is, with hindsight, the LW needed an agile long range fighter to escort bombers. The Zero is a good start, and probably also some German prototypes also are. Of course, the OTL Zero which flew in the Pacific (and was a success against P40s and Wildcats) would have been a disaster over the midlands. But something was needed.

FW187 with DB601
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Fw_187
Forget the Bf110, the Fw187 would have reached over 400mph with the DB601 and in the single seater version.

 

[paulo]

FW187 with DB601
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Fw_187
Forget the Bf110

or DB605 - if you push that development sooner

 

[Deleted member 1487]

or DB605 - if you push that development sooner

How? I don't know how it could be sooner than 1942, unlike the DB603.

 

[paulo]

How? I don't know how it could be sooner than 1942, unlike the DB603.

The 605 is an improved 601 - if the research as run in that direction sooner you maybe get it one year before.

from wiki

The primary differences between the 605 and 601 were greater displacement, higher revolutions, higher compression ratio and a more powerful supercharger. Through careful study the engineers determined that the cylinders could be bored out to a larger diameter without seriously affecting the strength of the existing block. The difference was minimal, increasing from the 601's 150 mm cylinder bore to the 605's 154 mm, but this increased the overall displacement from 33.9 litres to 35.7. Altered valve timing increased the inlet period and improved the scavenging to give greater volumetric efficiency at higher speeds, which improved the maximum allowable RPM from 2,600 in the 601 to 2,800 in the 605. The combination of these changes raised power output from 1,350 PS (1,332 hp) to 1,475 PS (1455 hp). The engine was otherwise similar, notably in size, which was identical to the 601. However, its weight did increase from 700 to 756 kg.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

The 605 is an improved 601 - if the research as run in that direction sooner you maybe get it one year before.

from wiki

The primary differences between the 605 and 601 were greater displacement, higher revolutions, higher compression ratio and a more powerful supercharger. Through careful study the engineers determined that the cylinders could be bored out to a larger diameter without seriously affecting the strength of the existing block. The difference was minimal, increasing from the 601's 150 mm cylinder bore to the 605's 154 mm, but this increased the overall displacement from 33.9 litres to 35.7. Altered valve timing increased the inlet period and improved the scavenging to give greater volumetric efficiency at higher speeds, which improved the maximum allowable RPM from 2,600 in the 601 to 2,800 in the 605. The combination of these changes raised power output from 1,350 PS (1,332 hp) to 1,475 PS (1455 hp). The engine was otherwise similar, notably in size, which was identical to the 601. However, its weight did increase from 700 to 756 kg.

Not things that could be rushed or pushed.

 

[Aztinca]

Some Small Details...

One thing you should'nt forget is the air-winning technology. British development of early-warning towers, and radio-directinonal finding were crucial during "The Blitz" and the ladder course of the war. Germany did, however, develop their own system. Locating enemy fighters and bombers was done using the Kammhuber Line: a series of "Radio boxes" (code named Himmelbett) and each being up to eighteen miles long. Each box had two Giant Wurzburg and one Freya. One of the Wurzburgs would track one fighter after it had circled it and would keep contact with his Himmelbett ground controller by radiotelephone. Hostile bombers nearing the Himmelbett would be fixed on by the second Wurzburg, the operational screen then showed the aircraft as a red blob and the tracked Messerschmitt as a blue blob. The controller then "talked" the fighter plane into contact with the British bombers. The Freya would simply find the altitude of the allied and enemy planes that had been tracked. Eventualy the British would find countermeasures to this system, making the system near useless. So what, if any, directional and/or finding systems would you create or modernize in relation to your Luftwaffe expansion?

[Credit to ~Secret Weapons of World War II~ by William B. Breuer for information]

 

[Chris Triangle]

Considering pre-war requirements were well within the short range of the Me109, I'd say that the requirements for range made the benefits of the Zero pointless for procurement. I'm not saying that range wasn't important, but looking at the requirements issued and priorities of the Luftwaffe IOTL before and after Wever made it seem like fighter range was secondary to survivability and firepower.

Oops, I didn't mean to imply that I thought the zero would be suitable for use in Europe, I think we can all agree on that. At any rate I think the 109 was the right plane for the job, but there's no getting around the annoyance of having to ditch a perfectly good plane because it ran out of fuel.

 

[Detlef]

The problem with the Zero thing (my first thread a couple of years ago...) is that the timing is off. The Zero only matured as a fighter after BoB was over. But when the IJAAF attacked Australia, their Oscars did quite well against defending Spitfire V, and despite overinflated wartime claims to the contrary, the first Spitfire that really had an edge over Japanese fighters was the MkVIII. (or IX, of course). The Zero and Oscar only became easy preys when the US introduced aircraft that had 2000HP and were either much faster, or could outdive them. The Spitfire thing in 1940 was turning, and that was the Zero's main strengh.
So if we time warp Zero's to BoB, the Spitfire MkI and the Hurricane are not gong to do well...

That´s the problem with "time warp".
Where is the red line?

I mean there are large deposits of tungsten in Austria. First discovered in 1927, but the real size was only discovered in 1950.
Likewise Germany and Austria (even with 1930s/1940s technology) could easily produce more oil than Romania during WW2 for at least 1-2 decades. First oil fields in the Vienna basin and Northern Germany were discovered in the 1940s / 1950s.

Once we start with "time warp" where do we stop?
You throw in an early "Zero", I´ll throw in an early discovery of oil fields and tungsten mining. Just where do we stop?

 

[Deleted member 1487]

One thing you should'nt forget is the air-winning technology. British development of early-warning towers, and radio-directinonal finding were crucial during "The Blitz" and the ladder course of the war. Germany did, however, develop their own system. Locating enemy fighters and bombers was done using the Kammhuber Line: a series of "Radio boxes" (code named Himmelbett) and each being up to eighteen miles long. Each box had two Giant Wurzburg and one Freya. One of the Wurzburgs would track one fighter after it had circled it and would keep contact with his Himmelbett ground controller by radiotelephone. Hostile bombers nearing the Himmelbett would be fixed on by the second Wurzburg, the operational screen then showed the aircraft as a red blob and the tracked Messerschmitt as a blue blob. The controller then "talked" the fighter plane into contact with the British bombers. The Freya would simply find the altitude of the allied and enemy planes that had been tracked. Eventualy the British would find countermeasures to this system, making the system near useless. So what, if any, directional and/or finding systems would you create or modernize in relation to your Luftwaffe expansion?

[Credit to ~Secret Weapons of World War II~ by William B. Breuer for information]

German radio guidance systems and centimetric radar. Germany put significant effort into their guidance system that I believe could have been enhanced had they not abandoned the centimetric systems that they first built in 1935. Of course a German discovered radar in 1904, but was ignored until the principle was rediscovered in 1934(-5?) independently and the discoverer went to patent the discovery only to realize the patent already existed from 1904...so if you'd like we can talk about the early discovery and its relation to the electronics industry and radar in Germany, which I have no idea how that would play out.

As to the cavity magnetron, something the Germans were working on before anyone, but abandoned due to the military not understanding the potential, thanks to the lack of engineers in service..., I don't know how or if it could have helped the German guidance systems perhaps to avoid jamming or gain extra range, but that was a major blunder that could have been prevented, giving Germany the lead in radar for the whole war and if procurers were thinking about it could have also had airborne radar first and better than the Brits. The Hohentwiel system could have been ready in 1939-40 because the basic technology was available in 1938 only to sit around until 1941 when the military finally asked for an AWAC system. Even the Condor could have been massively improved as a result. Couple that with my fantasy Do119 in double or triple numbers from August 1940 on...then the Brits got some problems.

Also the Germans had PPI in 1939 and the Airborne radar potential to have a 'Berlin' system by 1940-1 if they were thinking in that direction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_(Radar) (the link doesn't talk about the navigation purpose for some reason)
Of course that would also mean not abandoning Cavity Magnetron research. It would help to make British jamming of radio guidance irrelevant to a degree, as pathfinders could 'see' the ground and target.
It was based off of the British H2S system, but could have predated it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H2S_radar

This talks about the German navigation derivative for the Berlin radar halfway through:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...&sig=AHIEtbS06hoq1H82naSrsU6sHQTyT-6rnA&pli=1

 

[cortz#9]

Since the OP said we could do other Air forces. I thought I’d take stab at the Regia Aeronautica.
1937-40


First standardize aircraft production too many types doing the same job. For fighters focus on the Macchi 200 & the Reggiane 2000 both can be developed further as time goes on. Meanwhile cancel all other types .

For bombers the Fiat B.r.20 & Savio Sm79. For training and ground attack the Fiat C.R.32 Take the rest of surplus AC.s and sell, trade or give them away to lesser allies.


At this time I would borrow Wiking’s idea for building Japanese radials under license and do the same with German inline engines and Mauser 20mm. cannons. And try to make do with what I’ve got while combining them with the better tech. of others.


I would invest in German tech and weapons development with funds, research personnel scientist, engineers etc. and whatever natural resources and materials that Italy could spare not that it would be a lot.

In regards to R&D would put emphasis on producing air to surface missiles and RC anti shipping missiles like the Henschel Hs 293 and Fritz X. Italy needs more hard hitting weaponry.
Would also try to improve production methods. The Italians produce a lot of hand crafted parts for their aircraft no more of that just mass produce those suckers!


1941-42
At this point in time all of the previously mentioned AC.s have been upgraded with new motors and weaponry and a new generation of aircraft will be coming online.

For fighters Macchi 202 & Reggiane 2001 for ground attack Reggiane 2002 with Japanese radials and two 20mm. cannons in wings if possible.

Note both the Macchi & Reggiane 2001 would have cannons in each wing and one mounted behind the engine

For bombers the Piaggio P.108 with the Japanese Radials.

1943-?

Fighters - Macchi 205 Veltro and Reggiane 2005 Sagittario.

From 1943 on up I’m not sure what would be happening with Italy’s military situation. My guess is even with my changes it would still end the same as OTL but maybe a little bloodier.

In conclusion I have to say this was harder than I thought it would be. I really didn’t know much about the Italian AF but the bit of research I did was both fun and enlightening. I hope someone else here will take a stab at the Italian AF. I would love to see what they come up with .