Back Goes the Sand: Byzantine Victory at Hieromyax (Yarmouk)

Unless they change and accept the divinity of Christ, his resurrection, etc, hard to see them not being persecuted. Pretty hard to be perceived as a Christian sect for long if you do that.
 
Small niptips and questions:

Where is the Caliphate going to get three and a half tons of Gold?

Khasab was founded by the Portuguese on the 17th century so I doubt the Calipha can give what doesn't exists.

During the first century of Islam most Christians thought that they were just another Christian sect so why would the Byzantine Empire persecute them? Also in TTL Islam is still limited to Arabia so neither the Byzantines nor the Persians have Islamic populations so why the clause of freedom of religion?

Until the 17th century borders were organic things so I would advise you to take out the "The Caliphate will not send troops within ten miles of the Byzantine border", specially in the 7th century it would be hard to know where the Empire ended;

Also I just noticed the edited Battle casualties and numbers and by the way you write the battle the Romans keep a very steady battle line with good formation so where did all those casualties came from?
The same way the empire persecuted the Monophysites.
 
Unless they change and accept the divinity of Christ, his resurrection, etc, hard to see them not being persecuted. Pretty hard to be perceived as a Christian sect for long if you do that.

But the great question is why ITTL they just accepted that a sect, of which they know nothing other than it has something in common with their faith, should had freedom of religion. As I say first they will do a Council of Bishops before accepting any freedom of Religion clauses.
 
I suggest you re-edit the figures again.Of a force out of 50,000,it's impossible that this is a decisive win if 17,500 are killed and twenty- thousand are wounded.There's no way any army,especially pre-modern ones would have suffered a seventy-five percent casualty rate without disintegrating.
Yeah, forgot to change those numbers.
Small niptips and questions:

Where is the Caliphate going to get three and a half tons of Gold?

Khasab was founded by the Portuguese on the 17th century so I doubt the Calipha can give what doesn't exists.

During the first century of Islam most Christians thought that they were just another Christian sect so why would the Byzantine Empire persecute them? Also in TTL Islam is still limited to Arabia so neither the Byzantines nor the Persians have Islamic populations so why the clause of freedom of religion?

Until the 17th century borders were organic things so I would advise you to take out the "The Caliphate will not send troops within ten miles of the Byzantine border", specially in the 7th century it would be hard to know where the Empire ended;

Also I just noticed the edited Battle casualties and numbers and by the way you write the battle the Romans keep a very steady battle line with good formation so where did all those casualties came from?
In the order presented.
Fair point, I'll lower the amount. What sounds good to you?
Tbh just looked at a map of the Straits of Hormuz and picked a city. Do you know of any city that existed in the region that would be suitable for Persian annexation?
The Caliph is worried that people might not take him seriously anymore if he can't protect Muslims. I was thinking that the Byzantines would treat Muslims more like Jews, and there was a Jewish revolt a few years prior.
Now that I think about it it does sound silly. I'll remove it.
Same as above.
But the great question is why ITTL they just accepted that a sect, of which they know nothing other than it has something in common with their faith, should had freedom of religion. As I say first they will do a Council of Bishops before accepting any freedom of Religion clauses.
Let's just say that the Byzantines have a different way of thinking about toleration than we do.

Thanks for all of the feedback everyone.
 
Fair point, I'll lower the amount. What sounds good to you?
Tbh just looked at a map of the Straits of Hormuz and picked a city. Do you know of any city that existed in the region that would be suitable for Persian annexation?

Using the Treaty of Dara as an idea 30,000 gold solidi per year for say the duration of the truce, with the first three-five years being payed immediately.

The Straits of Hormuz had been part of the Sassanid Province of Mazun so they probably would demand the province to be returned to them.
 
I'm sorry to do this, as I am always glad to see new timelines, particularly about late antiquity/the early middle ages, but I just want to mention your depiction of Yarmouk. Even today, it is a lush and pleasant climate. 1400 years ago, it was even more lush and fertile. The battle took place near the Yarmouk river. A small scale dust storm - i.e. clouds of local sand whipped up by exceptionally strong wind - feel unlikely.

Sandstorms, when they do occur, tend to also be immense - blanketing whole regions. I fail to see why either side would risk battle in such conditions of poor visibility. Also it seems like your Yarmouk is a one day affair - when OTL both sides were exceptionally cautious and it lasted for (supposedly) six days.

Ignoring the impact on the fledgling religion of Islam for the moment, assuming they do lose some alt-Yarmouk, why should any Arab group suggest a peace treaty, let alone one with generous and probably impossible to keep terms? At least some of the leadership are undoubtedly true believers and zealots, and the remainder are practical and motivated by plunder. There's no call to give money to the Romans, nor to the Sassanians - by Yarmouk, the Sassanians are reeling and broken. If one foe proves difficult to raid and plunder and conquer, why not just keep going after the other?

The Romans are exhausted - they'd probably accept a mere truce or anything given their current state - especially if you posit them losing something like a third of their army (and heavy losses are reasonable, given that the Romans in this period had no counter to Arab tactics).

Edit: Here's a map as well, in case you need region and city names.

MAP

Edit2: If you simply want a surviving, relatively intact Byzantine Empire that holds Syria and Egypt, I always think that any post-Muhammad PoD is a bit too late. After the Arabs are united, the genie is out of the bottle so to speak. As much as it often seems so, battles aren't purely won or lost by the situation on the ground.

To use a convoluted metaphor, no matter what tactics the Danish Football Team used, they'll almost never beat Germany in a friendly match up. Germany just has massively more resources and talent to put into play. But to complicate the metaphor, let's assume that the entire German team is out on injury or suspensions or what have you. Now Denmark's odds are suddenly really good. All their players are fresh and healthy and Germany is pulling out second string backups and is totally demoralized cause they should be winning... they really should. But there's just no way to make it work when your A-team are all dead on arrival.

(P.S. if you're American or don't like soccer, just sub out Germany and Denmark for the Patriots and the Lions or something.)
 
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I'm sorry to do this, as I am always glad to see new timelines, particularly about late antiquity/the early middle ages, but I just want to mention your depiction of Yarmouk. Even today, it is a lush and pleasant climate. 1400 years ago, it was even more lush and fertile. The battle took place near the Yarmouk river. A small scale dust storm - i.e. clouds of local sand whipped up by exceptionally strong wind - feel unlikely.

Sandstorms, when they do occur, tend to also be immense - blanketing whole regions. I fail to see why either side would risk battle in such conditions of poor visibility. Also it seems like your Yarmouk is a one day affair - when OTL both sides were exceptionally cautious and it lasted for (supposedly) six days.

Ignoring the impact on the fledgling religion of Islam for the moment, assuming they do lose some alt-Yarmouk, why should any Arab group suggest a peace treaty, let alone one with generous and probably impossible to keep terms? At least some of the leadership are undoubtedly true believers and zealots, and the remainder are practical and motivated by plunder. There's no call to give money to the Romans, nor to the Sassanians - by Yarmouk, the Sassanians are reeling and broken. If one foe proves difficult to raid and plunder and conquer, why not just keep going after the other?

The Romans are exhausted - they'd probably accept a mere truce or anything given their current state - especially if you posit them losing something like a third of their army (and heavy losses are reasonable, given that the Romans in this period had no counter to Arab tactics).

Edit: Here's a map as well, in case you need region and city names.

MAP
Thanks for the input. The reason I have the sandstorm is from this:
However, a sandstorm blew on 20 August 636 against the Byzantines and when the Arabs charged against them they were utterly annihilated
from https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire_under_the_Heraclian_dynasty

In this timeline, the sandstorm blows the other way, severely harming the Muslim army. August 20th is the last day of the battle and where the timeline starts, so the previous days are the same as OTL.
For your point on the Muslim reaction, I'm thinking that their army being crushed so early in the religions life would humble the Caliphate considerably. As for how well the treaty will be kept to will be shown in the next post, and I will be going into why the Muslims did what they did in the treaty. If you are worried about a Byzantine Empire just blobbing, I assure you that it won't happen. Thanks for the map btw.
 
2) Start of the Sassanid Civil War
Middle East after the Treaty of Damascus:
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November 636

After the signing of the Treaty of Damascus, the Muslim armies turned their attention to solidifying their control over the Arabian peninsula. Since the Muslim defeat at Yarmouk, their grasp over Arabia nearly vanished as many Muslims became apostates and converted back to Paganism. This created large raiding parties that began to pillage much of the Muslim world. With the peace treaty, the Caliphate was able to crack down on the Pagans. The Caliphate was able to quickly assert their control over coastal regions of Arabia, only minor skirmishes occurred. The interior of the peninsula, however, was more difficult. As the raiding parties retreated back into the interior, the number of Pagans became more concentrated making it more difficult for the Muslims to fight.

Meanwhile, the Lombards in Italy invaded the Byzantine Exarchate of Ravenna. The depleted garrisons of Italy were no match for the prepared invasion of nearly 50,000 Lombards.

December 636

When the news of the invasion reached Constantinople, Ravenna had already fallen to the invaders. Heraclius knew that he would be unable to save all of Italy, but was determined to keep hold of parts of it. As he prepared to raise an army with the tribute from the Caliphate, he tasked the Byzantine Navy to conduct raids on the Lombard coasts. On December 26th, the Byzantine Navy came into battle with the Lombards in the Gulf of Naples while on a supply run to Naples. Nearly half of the Lombard Navy was present in the battle, over 150 warships and another 200 conscripted merchant ships. The Byzantine Navy was only a small portion of their navy, nearly 100 warships and 50 mercenary ships. Despite being outnumbered, the Byzantine fleet was able to sink 100 ships compared to only 30 of their own, this was partially because of their better strategy and coordination and partially because of their new weapon, Greek Fire. The weapon itself was in a prototype stage and was extremely volatile, and 18 Byzantine ships were put ablaze when their fire stores exploded. Still, to the Lombards, it was terrifying. They had never seen such a weapon and many ships fled after the first shots. From that point on the Byzantines would have complete naval dominance.

January 637

Using their naval strength, the Byzantines started hit and run attacks into Lombardy, mostly around Liguria and Benevento. By this time the Byzantines had brought soldiers into southern Calabria, Brendesion, and Naples, securing the territory from the Lombards. Nothing, however, could be done for other Byzantine possessions.

In Arabia, the Muslim armies had reconquered a corridor between the coasts in the battle of Riyadh where many Pagan leaders were killed. Through this reconquest, the Caliphate was able to sever the organization of the Pagans and open up new supply lines.

February 637


As the war in Italy continued, both sides launched raids against the others supply lines. The Byzantines held the upper hand because of their naval dominance, but they couldn’t press this advantage due to a lack of manpower and limited funds. The Lombards couldn’t advance due to the Byzantines naval advantage allowing them to reinforce and resupply their fortifications.

Meanwhile, the Sassanids in Persia were in a dire situation. Turkish tribes to the North were becoming increasingly aggressive, launching raids deep into the Persian heartland in a quest for loot. The Sassanids, like the Byzantines, simply did not have the men or the money to fight off the Turkish raiders. On February 23rd, as the Shahanshah pondered how to deal with the Turkish raiders in his palace at Ctesiphon, a representative from the Islamic Caliphate came with an offer.

  1. The Caliphate would supply soldiers to the Sassanids.

  2. The Caliphate would be able to send missionaries into the Sassanid Empire and any Turkish lands taken.

  3. The Sassanids would return their city on the Straits of Hormuz.
The Shahanshah flat out refused the proposal and sent the Muslim delegation back home. The following day, a large Turkish army numbering somewhere near 40,000 tore through eastern Persia and Afghanistan, plundering the countryside and even a few cities that had little defenses.

March 637

Following the Sassanid failure to protect them, many nobles in the east declared the Shahanshah unfit to rule and went to war with the central government. Fighting was light and dispersed for the time being but it was clear that this war would become much larger soon.

The Turkish army that had pillaged the Empire the previous month entered India and began to conquer many of the smaller kingdoms in the North as well as the collapsing Hephthalite Empire, creating a large Turkish state from the Caspian Sea through Afghanistan and to the edge of the Indus River Valley. This new Turkish Empire was called the Kanger Khanate and centered in the ancient city of Kabul.


AN
Sorry for the wait, I've wanted to have this on a one a day schedule but life interfered.
 
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I sense the Tang Dynasty will soon enter the scene and destroy the Turks.Tang attacks in the Western Turks began in 640 and might even begin sooner considering the Turks are now distracted.
 
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Africa's not too far away if the Caliph wants to relieve the overpopulation problem Arabia has. It's also an easier task to crack the horn rather than going northwards for round 2 and risking another defeat.
 
3) Treaty of Bari and the Theme System
April 637

The Islamic Caliphate begins an invasion of Somalia. The many city-states were nearly defenseless against the invaders and many submitted without a fight. The Muslims appointed local Muslims as the new governors of the cities in order to ease the transition.

The last Byzantine holdout in central Italy, Abruzzo, finally falls and the Lombards sue for peace.

Byzantine and Muslim Merchants enter Malacca, both establish trade depots in the port and the Muslims establish a mosque which would soon start winning converts among the locals.

May 637

Great Bulgaria begins an invasion of the Goths in Crimea, seeking greater control over trade with the Byzantines.

The Civil War in Persia escalates after the government executes several people critical of their handling of the situation. Many more nobles declare their support for the rebellion, including the satrapy of Abarshahr.

The Byzantines and Lombards meet in Bari, for the next 3 weeks they come to an agreement known as the Treaty of Bari

  1. The Lombards will annex central Italy from the Byzantines.

  2. The Bishop of Rome will control the city and the surrounding countryside and will maintain allegiance to the Byzantine Emperor.

  3. Both parties agree to a five year truce.
Post Treaty of Bari:

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June 637

Basileus Heraclius begins reorganizing the Empire into Themes. The Empire is divided into 25 themes. Each Theme has a leader called as Strategos that is in charge of all military units and defenses in the area and responsible for properly using imperial lands. In each Theme, army soldiers were given land to farm on in exchange for their service and an agreement that their sons will also serve in the military. Naval sailors were given fishing vessels and the right to fish in certain areas with the same agreement as the army. This new system provided many benefits for the Empire, the military gained many more soldiers as many poor people flocked to be able to provide for their families, the poor benefited from available jobs and falling food prices. Each Theme was run differently and had different priorities, for example Alexandria had more naval interests to the Empire in the form of grain supply so many sailors living in neighboring themes actually worked for Alexandria. Other Themes, such as Palestine, had a much larger budget for fortifications and non-thematic armies due to their proximity of Byzantine enemies.

The Sassanid Civil War continues as the rebels take Istakhr, the former capital of the Empire. The rebel leaders convene at Istakhr and formally declare their intention of putting the Shahanshah’s nephew, the 9 year old Ardashir, on the throne.

The Bulgarians begin to siege the Gothic Capital of Theodoro. The Goths had been able to hoard supplies but with no reinforcements and Bulgarian control of the rest of the country it was only a matter of time before it fell.

Many Pagan tribes in the Arabian Peninsula convert, most to Islam but some to Christianity and even one to Zoroastrianism. Many of the Muslim tribes swear their loyalty to the Caliph.

The First Themes of the Byzantine Empire:

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AN:
Woohoo! Maps! Those took a while. Any questions or comments appreciated.
 
I'm not sure,how come Italy collapsed so easily in this timeline when in otl,the empire controlled Italy for an extra century despite being much weaker?
 
I'm not sure,how come Italy collapsed so easily in this timeline when in otl,the empire controlled Italy for an extra century despite being much weaker?
The Lombards decided that the Empire was weak after two large wars and decided to invade with greater numbers and ambitions. The Byzantines also have a lot more territory to control so their army is more spread out.
 
The Lombards decided that the Empire was weak after two large wars and decided to invade with greater numbers and ambitions. The Byzantines also have a lot more territory to control so their army is more spread out.
But the empire in otl faced the same problem and actually lost the second war.Also,what remained of the army was tied up against the Slavs and the Arabs in a constant war and with even less manpower and resources.The exarchate managed itself well with what troops it could muster locally.I also don't think the Lombards will know much of the Arab war considering it was a pretty short and seemingly insignificant war.
 
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But the empire in otl faced the same problem and actually lost the second war.Also,what remained of the army was tied up against the Slavs and the Arabs in a constant war and with even less manpower and resources.The exarchate managed itself well with what troops it could muster locally.I also don't think the Lombards will know much of the Arab war considering it was a pretty short and seemingly insignificant war.
From what I've read, the Exarchate didn't have much real control over the countryside and it's destruction was a long time coming. ITTL, the Lombards notice the lack of troops in the area and invade, quickly surrounding the Roman heald cities and putting them under siege with little trouble.
 
With the infatuation that this site has for Byzantium, I'm suprised that there hasn't been any Yarmork timelines, or much in the way of interest generally, for a POD which was argurably greatest in its history.

Subscribed.

Because everyone really wants the Komneni.

That said, never heard of this POD/battle, so i look forward to reading this.
 
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