Actually the main provider of slaves in this TL right now is Egypt so the Venetians probably get theirs from there given their close trade relations.
An Age of Miracles: The Revival of Rhomanion
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luis3007: Pretty much. By themselves the Serbians and Bulgarians can't take Constantinople, but if they cooperate with the Venetian fleet to take out the European forts guarding the Dardanelles and Bosphorous first so the Venetians can blockade the city, then Constantinople is in big trouble.
thekingsguard: Thanks!
There hasn't been one...yet. With Denmark's German appetite whetted, it is focusing more on Scandanavia. They played a big role in engineering the fall of King Olaf (Tordsson) so that Sweden would have a weaker king. Russia moving on Perm is a matter of when, not if.
As for the Ottomans and Orthodox Alliance, that's complicated. Even if the Turks wanted to help (which is very very debateable) they can't. They got gutted by the Timurid invasion, and all their strength is needed rebuilding and keeping the Shah from getting any idea. As for the Alliance, unlike the Blue Horde and Shah Rukh, this doesn't present a clear opportunity/danger to the majority of the members. So individual members might join in, but not the Alliance as a whole.
Tongera: Thanks. The problem with the Romans focusing their efforts on the Europeans is that the Mamelukes haven't been beaten, just pushed back. If the tagmata concentrate on Europe, they leave Asia exposed. It's the classic dilemna of a state in a two (in this case more like three) front war.
A new crusade could be called although this isn't one, mainly because the three likeliest participants are busy at the moment. The possible participants, in order of likelihood are Bavaria, England-France, Lotharingia, Saxony (we're not going to let those damn Bavarians get all the glory, are we?), Poland (way to solidify royal authority by exporting violent nobles), and Florence (Theodoros has been upping transit tolls on flocks of livestock on their way to winter pasture in Apulia).
5000 Cows: That's a really good analogy that I hadn't thought of. I can't think of anything particular, but I just read that OTL Pope Pius II referred to the Venetians as fish.
Derekc2: I wouldn't be so sure. I'm not done throwing things at the Romans yet.
Dragos Cel Mare: Arles' fortunes and might is indeed rising. I was actually thinking, if it takes a long enough time, an Arletian monarch ruling all of OTL France might actually refer to himself as King of Arles and France.
It's been pointed out but a Hungary-Vlachia alliance is unlikely. Byzantium allying both though is possible.
Mathalamus: If Constantinople fell, we'd see a repeat of 1204 and aftermath. The Empire would break up, quite possibly on theme boundaries as local governors and strategoi asserted their authority in the vacuum. Whether or not the Empire would re-coalesce is debateable.
eliphas8: Taking Constantinople would be difficult, and would require a combined Slav-Venetian effort. To take the City requires a fleet, and at the moment the Venetians would have to run the forts in the Dardanelles and Bosphorous, all of which mount multiple bombards capable of ripping a galley in half with a single shot (they were built with the specific intention of keeping hostile-Venetian-fleets out of the Marmara).
Evilprodigy: Spot-on analysis. And the Black Day hasn't even started yet.
brokenman: An Andalusi-Roman alliance I think is the dream of almost
everyone reading this thread.
Elfwine: Neither Venice or Serbia can take the city by themselves. Together they do have a chance, but it'll be extremely difficult for them to set up that chance.
frozenpredator: I like it. Although for the record, I have another LOTR reference in mind.
And the end of the Middle Ages is scheduled for the 1470s, which is the source of the 'still a generation left in Europe' remark.
Arrix85: In TTL, the term 'Black Day' will actually be a literal statement, which the next update, which will be entirely devoted to the day in question, should make clear. Of course, the days and years afterwards will also be quite dark.
I really like the idea of the Middle Ages ending in 1476 (right now I've just narrowed down the event date to the 1470s), and from a storytelling point of view, the symmetry is really neat. But history is never that tidy; I'll have to think about it.
As for Greek-Italian relations, I do think with without Venice and the Papacy poisoning the well, reconciliation is possible. There have been some signs of that, with the ties with Genoa, Ancona, and Urbino. The painting I used for the update on Empress Helena was done by an Urbinese artist who used the Empress as a model for the Madonna.
And with Russia and Perm, that I think I'll save that for a slow year in Constantinople, so probably in a decade-ish. Novgorod does have Sweden, the Teutonic Order, and Poland to watch after all.
MerryPrankster: Roman Italy is in definite danger of extinction. However years of immigration has succeeded in Romanizing Bari, Taranto, and some of the Apulian towns. They're still loyal. Of course ninety five percent of the territory and two thirds of the population is in revolt so the odds are really bad.
Louyan: Or a terribly glorious draw.
Artemetis: That's how I envision Hungarian or Vlachian intervention unfolding. One of the titles Andrew III of Hungary aimed at was King of Italy after all.
t0m1991: Right now it's Constantinople (good), Antioch (good), Alexandria (only occupied and Sunni), Jerusalem (besieged and Sunni), and Rome (Catholic and the forces in between us and it outnumber us over 3 to 1, and we're not counting the rebels).
Avitus: Glad you liked it. It was definitely a very busy update. Julius definitely wants Cyprus wrecked, but he's smart enough to save his personal vendetta until it won't affect the war effort. Right now, trashing the Aegean so that it can't support a Roman fleet trying to defend Constantinople is the highest priority. That is why right now the Venetian armada is currently not off the Dardanelles.
Tyg: Theodoros would like you. The temporary loss of the Silk Road isn't fatal by any stretch, but it is enough to push the penny-pinching Theodoros to look for more sources of revenues. And Egypt can offer that in spades. And I must thank you; your post has given me a really good idea for a scene in a later update.
elkarlo: The Romans are going to concentrate their efforts on knocking off the Mamelukes, while gritting their teeth but taking the inevitably nasty losses in Europe. Taking out the Mamelukes will free up the best organized and led part of the army, their fleet, and completely eliminate the largest and most isolated front.
rbarata: My thanks. Welcome to the forum. As for your questions:
1) Yes, although these are not as developed and hence not as profitable as the Cypriot plantations.
2) No, because TTL Portuguese haven't reached there yet. They're just now pushing beyond the Canary Islands.
3) See above. The primary slave providers are either the Marinids (through the trans-Saharan route) or Mamelukes (access to the Sudanese market-big with the Romans because it usually is cheaper).
thekingsguard: Thanks!
There hasn't been one...yet. With Denmark's German appetite whetted, it is focusing more on Scandanavia. They played a big role in engineering the fall of King Olaf (Tordsson) so that Sweden would have a weaker king. Russia moving on Perm is a matter of when, not if. As for the Ottomans and Orthodox Alliance, that's complicated. Even if the Turks wanted to help (which is very very debateable) they can't. They got gutted by the Timurid invasion, and all their strength is needed rebuilding and keeping the Shah from getting any idea. As for the Alliance, unlike the Blue Horde and Shah Rukh, this doesn't present a clear opportunity/danger to the majority of the members. So individual members might join in, but not the Alliance as a whole.
Tongera: Thanks. The problem with the Romans focusing their efforts on the Europeans is that the Mamelukes haven't been beaten, just pushed back. If the tagmata concentrate on Europe, they leave Asia exposed. It's the classic dilemna of a state in a two (in this case more like three) front war.
A new crusade could be called although this isn't one, mainly because the three likeliest participants are busy at the moment. The possible participants, in order of likelihood are Bavaria, England-France, Lotharingia, Saxony (we're not going to let those damn Bavarians get all the glory, are we?), Poland (way to solidify royal authority by exporting violent nobles), and Florence (Theodoros has been upping transit tolls on flocks of livestock on their way to winter pasture in Apulia).
5000 Cows: That's a really good analogy that I hadn't thought of. I can't think of anything particular, but I just read that OTL Pope Pius II referred to the Venetians as fish.
Derekc2: I wouldn't be so sure. I'm not done throwing things at the Romans yet.
Dragos Cel Mare: Arles' fortunes and might is indeed rising. I was actually thinking, if it takes a long enough time, an Arletian monarch ruling all of OTL France might actually refer to himself as King of Arles and France.
It's been pointed out but a Hungary-Vlachia alliance is unlikely. Byzantium allying both though is possible.
Mathalamus: If Constantinople fell, we'd see a repeat of 1204 and aftermath. The Empire would break up, quite possibly on theme boundaries as local governors and strategoi asserted their authority in the vacuum. Whether or not the Empire would re-coalesce is debateable.
eliphas8: Taking Constantinople would be difficult, and would require a combined Slav-Venetian effort. To take the City requires a fleet, and at the moment the Venetians would have to run the forts in the Dardanelles and Bosphorous, all of which mount multiple bombards capable of ripping a galley in half with a single shot (they were built with the specific intention of keeping hostile-Venetian-fleets out of the Marmara).
Evilprodigy: Spot-on analysis. And the Black Day hasn't even started yet.
brokenman: An Andalusi-Roman alliance I think is the dream of almost
everyone reading this thread.
Elfwine: Neither Venice or Serbia can take the city by themselves. Together they do have a chance, but it'll be extremely difficult for them to set up that chance.
frozenpredator: I like it. Although for the record, I have another LOTR reference in mind.
And the end of the Middle Ages is scheduled for the 1470s, which is the source of the 'still a generation left in Europe' remark.
Arrix85: In TTL, the term 'Black Day' will actually be a literal statement, which the next update, which will be entirely devoted to the day in question, should make clear. Of course, the days and years afterwards will also be quite dark.
I really like the idea of the Middle Ages ending in 1476 (right now I've just narrowed down the event date to the 1470s), and from a storytelling point of view, the symmetry is really neat. But history is never that tidy; I'll have to think about it.
As for Greek-Italian relations, I do think with without Venice and the Papacy poisoning the well, reconciliation is possible. There have been some signs of that, with the ties with Genoa, Ancona, and Urbino. The painting I used for the update on Empress Helena was done by an Urbinese artist who used the Empress as a model for the Madonna.
And with Russia and Perm, that I think I'll save that for a slow year in Constantinople, so probably in a decade-ish. Novgorod does have Sweden, the Teutonic Order, and Poland to watch after all.
MerryPrankster: Roman Italy is in definite danger of extinction. However years of immigration has succeeded in Romanizing Bari, Taranto, and some of the Apulian towns. They're still loyal. Of course ninety five percent of the territory and two thirds of the population is in revolt so the odds are really bad.
Louyan: Or a terribly glorious draw.
Artemetis: That's how I envision Hungarian or Vlachian intervention unfolding. One of the titles Andrew III of Hungary aimed at was King of Italy after all.
t0m1991: Right now it's Constantinople (good), Antioch (good), Alexandria (only occupied and Sunni), Jerusalem (besieged and Sunni), and Rome (Catholic and the forces in between us and it outnumber us over 3 to 1, and we're not counting the rebels).
Avitus: Glad you liked it. It was definitely a very busy update. Julius definitely wants Cyprus wrecked, but he's smart enough to save his personal vendetta until it won't affect the war effort. Right now, trashing the Aegean so that it can't support a Roman fleet trying to defend Constantinople is the highest priority. That is why right now the Venetian armada is currently not off the Dardanelles.
Tyg: Theodoros would like you. The temporary loss of the Silk Road isn't fatal by any stretch, but it is enough to push the penny-pinching Theodoros to look for more sources of revenues. And Egypt can offer that in spades. And I must thank you; your post has given me a really good idea for a scene in a later update.
elkarlo: The Romans are going to concentrate their efforts on knocking off the Mamelukes, while gritting their teeth but taking the inevitably nasty losses in Europe. Taking out the Mamelukes will free up the best organized and led part of the army, their fleet, and completely eliminate the largest and most isolated front.
rbarata: My thanks. Welcome to the forum. As for your questions:
1) Yes, although these are not as developed and hence not as profitable as the Cypriot plantations.
2) No, because TTL Portuguese haven't reached there yet. They're just now pushing beyond the Canary Islands.
3) See above. The primary slave providers are either the Marinids (through the trans-Saharan route) or Mamelukes (access to the Sudanese market-big with the Romans because it usually is cheaper).
To be honest i can't see the Byzantines losing the Balkans, Constantinople and/or Anatolia again, as the Empire is a in better situation than in 1204, although i can see Italy being lost (would it be temporarily or permanetly, god knows).
Also could Vlachia, Novgorod and/or Hungary help in any way possible. Hungary and Vlachia could help with the fighting possibly, maybe Novgorod could send supplies and/or soldiers to help.
Isn't fighting the Europeans more of a priority than fighting the Mamelukes, i don't mean completely retreat from Egypt, but i figured the Europeans are the more dangerous together, especially if they are going to Constantinople, i thought they would be more of a priority.
Also could Vlachia, Novgorod and/or Hungary help in any way possible. Hungary and Vlachia could help with the fighting possibly, maybe Novgorod could send supplies and/or soldiers to help.
Isn't fighting the Europeans more of a priority than fighting the Mamelukes, i don't mean completely retreat from Egypt, but i figured the Europeans are the more dangerous together, especially if they are going to Constantinople, i thought they would be more of a priority.
while Constantinople is important, the Empire's powerbase is Anatolia and Asia minor, so leaving them exposed is a bad idea.
Constantinople will hold
Constantinople will hold
elkarlo
Banned
I am sure the walls are pretty decent, if not up to date. Think powder supply for the Venetians, if they don't bring it, they can't shoot it. They'll prolly run out of powder before they make an exploitable breach. While the Serbs and Bulgars, prolly won't bring much in the way of powder, not enough to assist in shelling that is. While the Romans can sally from Thessalonica, and harass the Latin alliance with troops from Anatolia, or Russian mercs.
Bet they go for it, as it is in theory a good way to knock the empire out of the war, and take it apart ala 1204.
The way i see it, they need to somehow knock the Mamelukes out quickly with a decisive blow and quickly send their troops against the Europeans (while leaving some in Anatolia).
Also what is the Demographics and Economy of the Byzantines at this point in the European and Anatolian parts of the Empire?
Also what is the Demographics and Economy of the Byzantines at this point in the European and Anatolian parts of the Empire?
Nope, the besiegers just need to place some cannons on the narrow parts of the Bosporus (less than 800m in places), and nothing short of a large navy with lots of guns will get through. And that is without taking into account the Venetian navy that will surely be present if Constantinople ends up under siege.
Though by the time the Venetian navy has swept the Roman navy from the seas they will be pretty gutted as well, enabling others to sweep them from the sea
ISOTed hochseeflotte?
I think Genoa is the best option, once they smell blood they'll pounce like hell
Yeah. I don't remember what Genoa's status is at this point in TTL, but I don't think it's as weak as it was by this point OTL.
Tongera: Losing all those regions is unlikely, but getting bites taken out and getting trashed are definite possibilities. They all could help; it's just a matter of they need some incentive. An Emperor once said 'gratitude is worth its weight in gold'.
Population of the Empire as a whole is approximately 12.5 million (not including Bulgaria), with 9 million in Asia and the remainder in Europe (includes the Crimea). Europe’s economy is mostly agricultural, producing grain, wine, olive oil, and most recently rice. The main export is malvasia wine from the Peloponnesus, popular in the west. The export of this product is the main pillar of the economy of the Genoese ports of Modon and Coron, where the population is mixed Greek-Genoese, with growing predominance toward the former element.
Europe also has a decent sized textile industry centered around Corinth, which employs the bulk of the Empire’s Jewish communities, as well as small glassmaking and shipbuilding industries. Macedonia is also the site of much of the Empire’s armament industry, including all the accouterments needed for the artillery train.
Anatolia is much more developed and wealthier overall. It has far larger textile, glassmaking, and shipbuilding industries, as well as jewelry and soap production. It exports greater quantities of all European products (save rice), hosts two termini for the Silk Road, and also produces alum, mastic, and sugar, all exceedingly valuable exports. Western Anatolia is the main native breadbasket of the Empire (increasingly supplemented by the Ukrainian grain fields), while central and eastern Anatolia is mostly devoted to ranching.
Europe is mostly Greek (except in Italy) with small Vlach and Slav populations, with a large Albanian minority in Epirus. Western and coastal Anatolia is much the same, but the remainder is a mix of Greek, Turk, and Armenian, with Vlach and Georgian influences.
Hopefully this makes clear why defending Anatolia is of such high priority. It has almost three quarters of the population and economy of the Empire as a whole (and approximately a sixth of Roman Europe's pop is in Constantinople and Thessalonika). If the Romans can hold Anatolia and Constantinople, they're still a power to be reckoned with. If they lose those, they immediately become an exposed second-rate power.
frozenpredator: Constantinople is pretty much the only area currently under threat that the Empire can't afford to have wrecked. Fortunately it's still the best fortified place in the known world.
elkarlo: Yeah, the Serbs can help a little, but not a whole lot in that regard. But it makes sense the allies would try anyway. When you're fighting someone as big as TTL Roman Empire, you want to go for the head. Since only the Mamelukes can hurt Anatolia, the longer the war runs the better the chances for the Empire (think Russia).
Ze Kaisar: They could, so long as the Romans hold the Bosphorous. However the Empire's main need is manpower, not supplies, and that costs more.
Xavier: Agreed. Right now the Romans have forts on the Bosphorous, manned by the giant siege guns Thomas Laskaris built during the War of the Five Emperors. So long as those are in place, there's no way the Venetians can get at the city. That's why the Venetians and Serbians will have to work together if they want to have a chance.
frozenpredator: That's Venice's main problem. They've put everything they have into this great armada. If it goes down, there's no reserve. Meanwhile the Romans can keep throwing bodies, whether local or foreign mercenaries, at them. The best analogy I can think of is Germany vs. Russia.
Elfwine: Genoa would be the best bet. They really don't need an excuse, only an opportunity, to fight Venice. The Genoese are doing much TTL, due to TTL trading ties with Marinids and Byzantium, and greater political stability at home (I'll elaborate on this more in the update after the Black Day).
Population of the Empire as a whole is approximately 12.5 million (not including Bulgaria), with 9 million in Asia and the remainder in Europe (includes the Crimea). Europe’s economy is mostly agricultural, producing grain, wine, olive oil, and most recently rice. The main export is malvasia wine from the Peloponnesus, popular in the west. The export of this product is the main pillar of the economy of the Genoese ports of Modon and Coron, where the population is mixed Greek-Genoese, with growing predominance toward the former element.
Europe also has a decent sized textile industry centered around Corinth, which employs the bulk of the Empire’s Jewish communities, as well as small glassmaking and shipbuilding industries. Macedonia is also the site of much of the Empire’s armament industry, including all the accouterments needed for the artillery train.
Anatolia is much more developed and wealthier overall. It has far larger textile, glassmaking, and shipbuilding industries, as well as jewelry and soap production. It exports greater quantities of all European products (save rice), hosts two termini for the Silk Road, and also produces alum, mastic, and sugar, all exceedingly valuable exports. Western Anatolia is the main native breadbasket of the Empire (increasingly supplemented by the Ukrainian grain fields), while central and eastern Anatolia is mostly devoted to ranching.
Europe is mostly Greek (except in Italy) with small Vlach and Slav populations, with a large Albanian minority in Epirus. Western and coastal Anatolia is much the same, but the remainder is a mix of Greek, Turk, and Armenian, with Vlach and Georgian influences.
Hopefully this makes clear why defending Anatolia is of such high priority. It has almost three quarters of the population and economy of the Empire as a whole (and approximately a sixth of Roman Europe's pop is in Constantinople and Thessalonika). If the Romans can hold Anatolia and Constantinople, they're still a power to be reckoned with. If they lose those, they immediately become an exposed second-rate power.
frozenpredator: Constantinople is pretty much the only area currently under threat that the Empire can't afford to have wrecked. Fortunately it's still the best fortified place in the known world.
elkarlo: Yeah, the Serbs can help a little, but not a whole lot in that regard. But it makes sense the allies would try anyway. When you're fighting someone as big as TTL Roman Empire, you want to go for the head. Since only the Mamelukes can hurt Anatolia, the longer the war runs the better the chances for the Empire (think Russia).
Ze Kaisar: They could, so long as the Romans hold the Bosphorous. However the Empire's main need is manpower, not supplies, and that costs more.
Xavier: Agreed. Right now the Romans have forts on the Bosphorous, manned by the giant siege guns Thomas Laskaris built during the War of the Five Emperors. So long as those are in place, there's no way the Venetians can get at the city. That's why the Venetians and Serbians will have to work together if they want to have a chance.
frozenpredator: That's Venice's main problem. They've put everything they have into this great armada. If it goes down, there's no reserve. Meanwhile the Romans can keep throwing bodies, whether local or foreign mercenaries, at them. The best analogy I can think of is Germany vs. Russia.
Elfwine: Genoa would be the best bet. They really don't need an excuse, only an opportunity, to fight Venice. The Genoese are doing much TTL, due to TTL trading ties with Marinids and Byzantium, and greater political stability at home (I'll elaborate on this more in the update after the Black Day).
i thought the population would be in the order of 20 million or so. after all, they were in a golden age for more or less 200 years.
i really dont understand the Empires tendency to concentrate weaponry stuff in Macedonia. that's right on the border, cant they relocate them into Anatolia or something?
so Anatolia is doing much better than before now. very good, now it will actually be productive in all matters. about alum... is that aluminum or something?
The Black Death hit the Empire hard, if I remember, and like many parts of Europe brought down population numbers considerably.
Alum is a mineral compound that has an enormous number of chemical uses even today. Back then, it would have been used a lot in the production of leather and textiles, and also is useful for medicinal or cosmetic purposes
Alum contains the element aluminum, it's where the latter got its name.
Dragos Cel Mare
Banned
True, but still, it would have made an impact upon demographics, preventing the population from rising as it should.
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