Alternate colonizers of Siberia?

China or Japan could colonize the far east if they were given time, I think Korea/Joseon has designs on Yeonhaeju as well.

The Chinese showed little interest in taking over Siberia. For example, the Song were a little too busy with the Khitans and Jurchens, while the Ming were too busy with the Mongols. As for the Japanese, I don't see them trying to get that far in Siberia, though parts along the Pacific may be possible. As for Korea, Joseon had a difficult enough time controlling territory south of the Tumen River, so I don't think it would have much success north of it. Russia really seems like the best candidate to colonize Siberia.

Building off of these, a POD after 1000 would make it almost impossible for either China, Japan, or Korea to take control of the area even remotely close to Siberia. China had enough to worry about Central Asia to even think about Siberia for most of its history, while Japan couldn't even get past Honshu or Korea before 1850. It might have managed to navigate the coastline, but it probably would not have found any reason to found a significant amount of colonies. Although Korea could have somehow seized a small portion of Manchuria during the 12th or 17th century under specific circumstances, it would have never made it to Siberia.

The only possibility that I can think of is a rump Goguryeo that manages to survive in Central Manchuria, which later manages to expand into Siberia and the Pacific as it begins to seek trade routes. However, this would require a POD before 500, and it would require Goguryeo moving its capital several times.

Well, a Balhae that survived and prospered and later became powerful enough to take over what we know as the Russian Far East and further west would only be 'Korea' in a rather loose sense of the word...

The problem is that we know virtually nothing about Balhae except for a few bits and pieces here and there. All we know about its ethnic composition is from the fact that some allied Mohe tribes managed to found the country. However, Goguryeo had about 3.5 million people when it fell, and although some were deported soon after, most of the population remained around the same area when Balhae was founded 30 years later. This means that unless the Mohe tribes and other settlers numbered over 5 million, in addition to the original 3 million, by the time it was founded, or a total population of about 10-15 million when the Liao invaded, it is possible that the "Mohe" that records later referred to were just regional people in the area. This would also mean that the Heishui Mohe that later became the Jurchens could have been a separate ethnic tribe. Of course, nothing is certain, but it is a possibility.

In other words, by the time that Balhae somehow managed to recover from the Liao, and a more expansionist one came into contact with Goryeo or another Korean dynasty, things would be very complicated as both could be considered ethnically and culturally "Korean," along with speaking similar languages.
 
Assuming that there is no Imjin War and Ming China and Joseon are a lot stronger in this time period, but they're too busy with some internal matters, how about the Manchus? I'm not sure if Siberia could be colonized by any remnant of any Turco-Mongol khanate or something. The only way for a Turco-Mongol Siberia to be established would be to cripple Muscovy permanently.
 
Building off of these, a POD after 1000 would make it almost impossible for either China, Japan, or Korea to take control of the area even remotely close to Siberia. China had enough to worry about Central Asia to even think about Siberia for most of its history, while Japan couldn't even get past Honshu or Korea before 1850.
People also need motive. Staying home might be rough, but at least you are in a world you know. Going to a new place is a risk even if it is a sensible one to take.

For all we know, unrecorded dissent elements of Chinese, Korean and Japanese societies mighthave taken ship to Siberia and set up a colony, which went to the wall. The Europeans often only made it in North America because the natives bailed them out. There are a fair few cases where they did not.

All we know is that the governments did not think it worth their while to attempt to set one up. If Norway could maintain suzertainty over Greenland and Spain govern Mexico and Peru via viceroys, China could have easily governed a colony via mandarins and Korea and Japan equally as well. I reckon they did not because within the values they held they saw no good reason to do so. Whatever Ssiberia might hold, it could be obtained much easier closer to home.
 

scholar

Banned
Building off of these, a POD after 1000 would make it almost impossible for either China, Japan, or Korea to take control of the area even remotely close to Siberia. China had enough to worry about Central Asia to even think about Siberia for most of its history, while Japan couldn't even get past Honshu or Korea before 1850. It might have managed to navigate the coastline, but it probably would not have found any reason to found a significant amount of colonies.
Not quite, the Qing actually controlled Southern Siberia and ventured, briefly, there as well. If there was any sort of serious competition between a Chinese Dynasty and a non-Chinese Dynasty that they did not merely view it as a Barbarian State wanting Barbarian Lands, such as perhaps between the Sassanids and Tang (Though that is a far older example).

For Japan... please look up the Daimyo of the Kakizaki-Matsumae clan. Now Hokkaido was never fully colonized until the Meiji era, but this stemmed from a cultural belief in the unnecessary and barbarian nature of the north. Should Japan ever develop the desire to expand instead of simply tolerating their existence with a Japanese march with very few troops to keep them in check expansion beyond Hokkaido would be pretty plausible.

Korea is not so lucky, needing to conquer both the various tribes of Manchuria, resist the powerful Chinese, and either subjugate or conquer those of the Mongolian Steppe. In a word, suggesting the French colonize Siberia by way of Germany, Poland, and Russia.
 
Korea is not so lucky, needing to conquer both the various tribes of Manchuria, resist the powerful Chinese, and either subjugate or conquer those of the Mongolian Steppe. In a word, suggesting the French colonize Siberia by way of Germany, Poland, and Russia.
Not if they use ships to sail round them. One reason for the Portuguese expeditions was to overflank the Muslims. Admittedly they were after the spice trade so they had a target to aim at whilst in contrast the Koreans would fishing in the dark. In addition, sailing south would more profitable because of the trade opportunities. Still, if some merchant got blown north and returned with a hold load of furs who is to say others would not then sail north too?
 
I remember hearing somewhere that if the American revolution failed to happen for some reason then the pioneers would move West at an accelerated rate due to them being backed by the British. Once the 'manifest destiny' was completed, they might very well move into Siberia.

Not sure how much validity this idea has but it seems possible in a way.
 
I remember hearing somewhere that if the American revolution failed to happen for some reason then the pioneers would move West at an accelerated rate due to them being backed by the British. Once the 'manifest destiny' was completed, they might very well move into Siberia.

...and what, swear allegiance to Her Majesty Catherine II? Because if they don't I doubt they'd be welcome otherwise. This is late 1700s at best we're talking about.
 
Assuming that there is no Imjin War and Ming China and Joseon are a lot stronger in this time period, but they're too busy with some internal matters, how about the Manchus? I'm not sure if Siberia could be colonized by any remnant of any Turco-Mongol khanate or something. The only way for a Turco-Mongol Siberia to be established would be to cripple Muscovy permanently.

If there was no Imjin War, then Joseon and the Ming probably would have had more influence in Manchuria. The Manchus, which had originally been Jurchen, were not unified until the early 17th century, and both Korea and China would have attempted to keep the area divided in order to continuously receive tribute. Also, Gwanghaegun, the Joseon ruler soon after the Imjin War, was a very skilled diplomat and had been reorganizing the military before he was ousted due to political reasons. Regardless of whether Japan invaded or not, if the government had supported him more firmly due to butterflies, then he might have attempted to expand into Manchuria.

People also need motive. Staying home might be rough, but at least you are in a world you know. Going to a new place is a risk even if it is a sensible one to take.

For all we know, unrecorded dissent elements of Chinese, Korean and Japanese societies mighthave taken ship to Siberia and set up a colony, which went to the wall. The Europeans often only made it in North America because the natives bailed them out. There are a fair few cases where they did not.

All we know is that the governments did not think it worth their while to attempt to set one up. If Norway could maintain suzertainty over Greenland and Spain govern Mexico and Peru via viceroys, China could have easily governed a colony via mandarins and Korea and Japan equally as well. I reckon they did not because within the values they held they saw no good reason to do so. Whatever Ssiberia might hold, it could be obtained much easier closer to home.

As I said before, China, Japan, and Korea were occupied with other events to think about Siberia. After 1000, China and Korea were continuously occupied with the Khitan, Jurchen, Mongols, and the Manchu, while Japan was concerned with its own affairs to think about looking beyond Hokkaido. Dissidents might have traveled to Siberia by sea, but unless there were significant tangible benefits to living there, it would be very hard to convince the government.

Not quite, the Qing actually controlled Southern Siberia and ventured, briefly, there as well. If there was any sort of serious competition between a Chinese Dynasty and a non-Chinese Dynasty that they did not merely view it as a Barbarian State wanting Barbarian Lands, such as perhaps between the Sassanids and Tang (Though that is a far older example).

For Japan... please look up the Daimyo of the Kakizaki-Matsumae clan. Now Hokkaido was never fully colonized until the Meiji era, but this stemmed from a cultural belief in the unnecessary and barbarian nature of the north. Should Japan ever develop the desire to expand instead of simply tolerating their existence with a Japanese march with very few troops to keep them in check expansion beyond Hokkaido would be pretty plausible.

Korea is not so lucky, needing to conquer both the various tribes of Manchuria, resist the powerful Chinese, and either subjugate or conquer those of the Mongolian Steppe. In a word, suggesting the French colonize Siberia by way of Germany, Poland, and Russia.

The Qing was originally a Manchu dynasty that was eventually assimilated into Chinese culture around the mid-18th century, and significant migration to Manchuria did not occur until the 19th century when the Qing allowed the Han Chinese to relocate in response to Russian incursion. Until then, the Manchus had planned on closing off Manchuria to settlement in case of a Han Chinese resurgence that would force the Qing out of China proper. Meanwhile, the Qing was more concerned with states elsewhere, conquering Xinjiang and Tibet, while invading Nepal, Burma, and Siam. Also, it's hard to say whether the Manchus expanded into "Siberia," because a current Chinese interpretation is that the northeastern areas that they had lost to Russia should be considered "Inner Manchuria," and neither Manchuria nor Siberia have concrete definitions. In other words, even if the Qing attempted to expand into Siberia, it would be hard for them to actively colonize the area as they were not focused on mass settlement at the time.

I see your point concerning the Japanese influence in Hokkaido, but the Imjin War caused Japan to withdraw into isolation, as it had suffered numerous casualties after two costly invasions, and probably would not have attempted to actively expand soon after. One of the reasons for the invasion was that Japan supposedly (and incorrectly) assumed that the southern Korean Peninsula had been under Japanese control, not to mention that Japan sought Korea as a gateway in its attempt to expand into China. As a result, I think that it would be hard to butterfly the war away if Japan had been militarily unified by the late 16th/early 17th century, and if it remained divided, then none of the states would most likely have had the capability to expand into Hokkaido. Attempting to reach Siberia after the mid-17th century is unlikely due to Russian excursion.

Meanwhile, Korea had slight, although unlikely possibilities, in attempting to expand into Manchuria after 1000. We already established on another thread that in the early 12th century, Goryeo could have potentially seized significant areas of southern Manchuria if it had managed to maneuver the tribes in Manchuria. Also, in line with the above response that I made to MarshalBraginsky, Gwanghaegun or another skilled diplomat/military leader could have potentially done so as well.
 
So the Imjin War has to occur if Gwanghaegun were to get more support from the Joseon rulers. If he was successful in expanding into Manchuria, then what is the next step for the Joseon?
 
England is a possibility, I can see this especially happening with a Hapsburg England. Interest in Russia began under Mary I, with two English expeditions going to Russia (one infamously got caught in ice and the crew and explorer died).

Now, say Mary has a child with Philip II, but the child doesn't take over Spain, only England, after her and Philips death, then I can see English interest in Siberia shooting up as Hapsburg Spain would likely try and push Hapsburg England away from the New World, something that would be more possible with the Hapsburg friendship and family ties as well as no Protestant feeling of needing to annoy the Spaniards or beat them.

Thus England wants to expand, it's already quite a mercantile nation by Mary's reign, unlike many other Catholic countries, so the merchants can try to expand to Siberia where Anglo-Russian relations were already high, we may even see the AH.com dream of an Ivan-Elizabeth marriage come true if Elizabeth is somehow forced into it (though she was, of course, notably stubborn so might not).

Thus we may see a treaty over, say, the Pechora River which allows English merchants to trade along the river. Thus begins the slow, but steady, English colonisation of Siberia.
 
Would it actually result in a Catholic Siberia led by England? Or would it also result in a Russia that somehow ends up experiencing the world of Catholic, Hapsburg England? By this time, Russia is already an Orthodox Christian state and it would be virtually impossible for them to accept Catholicism unless by some luck, they become Uniates.
 
So the Imjin War has to occur if Gwanghaegun were to get more support from the Joseon rulers. If he was successful in expanding into Manchuria, then what is the next step for the Joseon?

Not really. In fact, even though Gwanghaegun actively took on matters when he was crown prince during the Imjin War, he probably did not receive support from the Northerner Faction of ministers because the country was in turmoil during and after the war. In other words, as Seonjo died before the court agreed on Gwanghaegun as ruler because the country was focused on defending, then rebuilding, the new ruler was in danger of being ousted from the beginning of his reign.

If the Imjin War did not occur, then Gwanghaegun would probably still have been picked over his brothers, as the oldest was seen as ineffective, and the youngest was too young at the time. In this scenario, the Northerner Faction probably would not have supported the youngest prince, eliminating court strife, and Gwanghaegun (who would have a different name in this scenario as he would remain as the ruler) would have taken steps to maintain a cordial relationship with the Ming, as well as working with them to suppress the Manchus and prevent unification. If the Manchus still ended up unifying, then the Ming and Joseon could still have worked together to prevent the Manchus from expanding, then attempt to invade and occupy the area. In either case, Joseon would have gained significant amounts of Manchuria, but it's hard to say exactly what would happen next, as the state would initially focus on relocating settlers to the area, then come into conflict with Russia, of which the outcome would be hard to determine.
 
Would it actually result in a Catholic Siberia led by England? Or would it also result in a Russia that somehow ends up experiencing the world of Catholic, Hapsburg England? By this time, Russia is already an Orthodox Christian state and it would be virtually impossible for them to accept Catholicism unless by some luck, they become Uniates.
I meant as in English people start to populate down the river as it's the main trading-point with Russia, alongside it being the only place (other than Ireland) for the English settlers to travel to. Of course it'd rely on Russia being distracted more in the west...

But yeah, I didn't mean a Catholic Russia, I just meant good Anglo-Russian relations and an English colonisation of the Pechora River that could go eastward as well...
 
Not really. In fact, even though Gwanghaegun actively took on matters when he was crown prince during the Imjin War, he probably did not receive support from the Northerner Faction of ministers because the country was in turmoil during and after the war. In other words, as Seonjo died before the court agreed on Gwanghaegun as ruler because the country was focused on defending, then rebuilding, the new ruler was in danger of being ousted from the beginning of his reign.

If the Imjin War did not occur, then Gwanghaegun would probably still have been picked over his brothers, as the oldest was seen as ineffective, and the youngest was too young at the time. In this scenario, the Northerner Faction probably would not have supported the youngest prince, eliminating court strife, and Gwanghaegun (who would have a different name in this scenario as he would remain as the ruler) would have taken steps to maintain a cordial relationship with the Ming, as well as working with them to suppress the Manchus and prevent unification. If the Manchus still ended up unifying, then the Ming and Joseon could still have worked together to prevent the Manchus from expanding, then attempt to invade and occupy the area. In either case, Joseon would have gained significant amounts of Manchuria, but it's hard to say exactly what would happen next, as the state would initially focus on relocating settlers to the area, then come into conflict with Russia, of which the outcome would be hard to determine.

So in this case Joseon would not come even remotely close to taking bits of Siberia.
 

scholar

Banned
The Qing was originally a Manchu dynasty that was eventually assimilated into Chinese culture around the mid-18th century, and significant migration to Manchuria did not occur until the 19th century when the Qing allowed the Han Chinese to relocate in response to Russian incursion. Until then, the Manchus had planned on closing off Manchuria to settlement in case of a Han Chinese resurgence that would force the Qing out of China proper. Meanwhile, the Qing was more concerned with states elsewhere, conquering Xinjiang and Tibet, while invading Nepal, Burma, and Siam. Also, it's hard to say whether the Manchus expanded into "Siberia," because a current Chinese interpretation is that the northeastern areas that they had lost to Russia should be considered "Inner Manchuria," and neither Manchuria nor Siberia have concrete definitions. In other words, even if the Qing attempted to expand into Siberia, it would be hard for them to actively colonize the area as they were not focused on mass settlement at the time.
I am well aware of that, however this does not negate the point at all. The conquest of Xinjiang and Tibet were not costly and exhaustive affairs. Once the Qing sent out its armies, the situation was relatively settled right away. The main problem was getting the Qing to have the motivation to do so. In fact, Tibet's semi-independence was a useful tool in dealing with the Mongols, which had been dealt with by the Qing on a number of occasions. In Xinjiang the situation was still seen as Barbarians in Barbarian territory, it was only through Qing dominance of the Mongols and the Oriat that led to the its eventual destruction. Yes, I understand that 'relatively settled' still involved costly affairs, and years of campaigning, but in the grand scheme of the Qing's history as well as the nature of similar campaigns with previous Dynasties.

Further, the distinction between Manchuria and Siberia are based on cultural perceptions. As I said before, if the Qing actually cared about Siberia with a change in culture so that it recognized another state's taking the territory as something more than Barbarians taking Barbarian territory then colonization could be made. The Qing restriction of immigration to Manchuria was based on culture and a sort of segregation between the Manchurians and the native Chinese (mostly Han, but not quite all Han, though Han being a fluid concept that its mostly semantics to try to distinguish them from similar groups).

I see your point concerning the Japanese influence in Hokkaido, but the Imjin War caused Japan to withdraw into isolation, as it had suffered numerous casualties after two costly invasions, and probably would not have attempted to actively expand soon after. One of the reasons for the invasion was that Japan supposedly (and incorrectly) assumed that the southern Korean Peninsula had been under Japanese control, not to mention that Japan sought Korea as a gateway in its attempt to expand into China. As a result, I think that it would be hard to butterfly the war away if Japan had been militarily unified by the late 16th/early 17th century, and if it remained divided, then none of the states would most likely have had the capability to expand into Hokkaido. Attempting to reach Siberia after the mid-17th century is unlikely due to Russian excursion.
The Imjin War was not even remotely the primary reason for Japan's withdrawal from the outside world. Rather, growing European influence, influential Catholic converts, and the fall of the Toyotomi. In the campaigns between the Tokugawa and the Toyotomi a vast majority of the Christian Daimyo would stand in support of the Toyotomi. Further, there was a small terror that Spain wanted to conquer them. This, along with various political changes under the Tokugawa Shogunate, not only led to persecution against Christians (not a new thing), but the complete reversion to shunning the outside world maintaining only brief, incredibly brief, trade with Europe while using Okinawa as a halfway station of sorts between the Chinese Markets and Japan. Cultural and Technological regression were also enforced, recent constructs, designed to prevent future conflicts within Japan to threaten the power of the Tokugawa. Very little to do with the Imjin War, which was a costly affair that may have cost the Toyotomi their control, but not what turned Japan into a backward state.

Further, the Japanese don't have to take Korea to continue colonial ambition. The Ryukyu Kingdom is simply one example, and the Ezochi March of the Matsumae is another. Should Japan's cultural outlook change, expansion to, at the very least, various close by island chains and trade relations with Siberia is likely. Further, even if we were to rest the blame entirely on the Imjin War, one cannot state that the Imjin War was at all a likely event. Rather it was a product of the Sengoku Era, which in turn was highly dependent upon a number of complex events preceding it. (Such as the fall of the Shugo, the Weakening of the Ashikaga, and the rise of necessary families.) Culture can change very easily in such times of societal revolution.

Meanwhile, Korea had slight, although unlikely possibilities, in attempting to expand into Manchuria after 1000. We already established on another thread that in the early 12th century, Goryeo could have potentially seized significant areas of southern Manchuria if it had managed to maneuver the tribes in Manchuria. Also, in line with the above response that I made to MarshalBraginsky, Gwanghaegun or another skilled diplomat/military leader could have potentially done so as well.
The Goryeo could have expanded into Manchuria, but it would have to take place during the Liao's conflicts with the Jurchen. When both of them were weak they could make significant inroads. They could not, however, outright conquer either party nor even remotely contain them if they tried. Pressure from the Song, no doubt eager to advance in the wake of its most dangerous rival's collapse to recover the 16 prefectures, would keep their gains to a minimal. Attempting it during the Jin-Song wars would be particularly suicidal once the fighting calms (which it always does, normally in stalemate or one side edging out a slight victory [exceptions being Yue Fei and the Jin's rapid reconquest of Middle China]. Again, they could capitalize, but they would not reach Outer Manchuria just with that and hope to control it.
 
Even so, then how could the Manchus have a change in culture that results in annexing territory as something more than barbarians taking the lands of other barbarians?
 

scholar

Banned
Even so, then how could the Manchus have a change in culture that results in annexing territory as something more than barbarians taking the lands of other barbarians?
Civil War would be one of the best options, or have a state which the Chinese can consider a cultural equal (such as Persia under the Sassanids). It isn't exactly easy to do, but its possible.

They could also view more than Manchuria as part of Manchuria, afterall the Qing Dynasty was founded by the Jianzhou Jurchens, a group that was in control of a comparatively small portion of what is considered Greater Manchuria. The Haixi Jurchen and the 'Wild Jurchen' represented other overarching groups. The Qing conquest was initially done by Jurchens, but later carried out mostly by Chinese infantry. Especially in the South where Manchurian Military Tactics were no longer effective. Find some way to get Manchuria larger in cultural perception could deal with a further expansion of the Wild Jurchen, or have a rebellion result in several tribal clans fleeing north and waging a guerilla conflict. The Qing would, by necessity, move into the regions to pacify them. If enough people are involved in the move north, provisional control will be expanded. If not, a commandery could be placed.

This would still have a problem because of territories considered Bei Di, which belonged to one of the four ancient Barbarian terms representing the North. This poses a problem as the Qing was a sponsor of the old Song brand of Neo-Confucianism.
 
Civil War would be one of the best options, or have a state which the Chinese can consider a cultural equal (such as Persia under the Sassanids). It isn't exactly easy to do, but its possible.

They could also view more than Manchuria as part of Manchuria, afterall the Qing Dynasty was founded by the Jianzhou Jurchens, a group that was in control of a comparatively small portion of what is considered Greater Manchuria. The Haixi Jurchen and the 'Wild Jurchen' represented other overarching groups. The Qing conquest was initially done by Jurchens, but later carried out mostly by Chinese infantry. Especially in the South where Manchurian Military Tactics were no longer effective. Find some way to get Manchuria larger in cultural perception could deal with a further expansion of the Wild Jurchen, or have a rebellion result in several tribal clans fleeing north and waging a guerilla conflict. The Qing would, by necessity, move into the regions to pacify them. If enough people are involved in the move north, provisional control will be expanded. If not, a commandery could be placed.

This would still have a problem because of territories considered Bei Di, which belonged to one of the four ancient Barbarian terms representing the North. This poses a problem as the Qing was a sponsor of the old Song brand of Neo-Confucianism.

Civil War might have to be the option that the Jurchens would have to take. Of course, would the Qing still be in existence or would it not exist if the Jurchens have a civil war, forcing some to flee north.
 

scholar

Banned
Civil War might have to be the option that the Jurchens would have to take. Of course, would the Qing still be in existence or would it not exist if the Jurchens have a civil war, forcing some to flee north.
Said civil conflict can occur fairly quickly into the civil war or after its mostly unification and still leave the Qing intact at the end of it. The Ming Dynasty at the time was facing massive peasant uprisings, full scale civil war with a pretender to the throne that was a little genocide happy, a collapse of central authority, and many governors acting independently. The Qing Conquest was less of a violent incursion against a unified Han army, but a comparatively quick coup which received support from many of the standing Chinese armies and much of the scholar-gentry. The Ming would straggle along going further and further South, but their fate was pretty much sealed before this. Especially since most of the armies and generals were Chinese themselves, with the Manchu representing overall command or only a small fraction of the forces that subjugated Southern Ming.
 
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