AHC: Weirdest possible powers
- Thread starter Tredecimus
- Start date
SunDeep
Banned
What about a few African powers? The medieval Igbo Kingdom of Nri strikes me as one of the most interesting prospects for development in an ATL, with the unique nature of its government, society and religion. One of the few states to have ever arisen which can be described as a religio-polity, the Kingdom of Nri was ruled by an elected priest-king, comparable to the early Popes, known as the eze Nri. Unlike the more paganist and animistic religions which are stereotypically deemed to have been universally practised across pre-colonial Africa, the Nri believed in an omnipotent, omniscient supreme deity, whose being encompassed the entirety of creation. They believed that 'The Light', Anyanwu, was the symbol of perfection that all people should aspire to, and that Agbala, the collective spirit of all holy beings (human and non-human alike), transcending religion, culture and gender, was entrusted to lead them there. And in all of West Africa, it was the only region where slavery was explicitly forbidden; from the rule of the 10th eze Nri onwards, all slaves who set foot on Nri soil were considered free.
IOTL, the Kingdom of Nri fell into decline and its eventual demise because, in the end, it proved too idealistic to cope with the pressures and demands of the outside world. Ultimately, it had no way to protect the freedom of its people, either from infringing slave states or from the British slave traders when they came to claim their share of the Atlantic Slave Trade. The eze Nri wielded no military power, with the Kingdom of Nri maintaining its hold over its settlements and expanding further into new territories, not through military force, but by employing a class of missionary nobles to obtain them by ritual oath. They preached and practised a policy of religious pacifism, asserting that violence was an abomination which polluted the earth, and instead employed a form of excommunication (isolation from the wider community, in essence comparable to prison when declared against individuals and comparable to imposing a blockade when declared against an entire settlement). Given that the Kingdom endured for almost a milennia, the policy was clearly used to great success within their own borders, and greatly boosted trade in the region; but in the end, when faced with profiteering adversaries over whom their faith had no influence whatsoever, their no-violence policy would have inevitably led to their downfall.
So, for an ATL, you could have a Kingdom of Nri which, at a relatively early stage, abandons its policy of religious pacifism for a more militaristic 'crusader' mentality, with the eze Nri's role bearing an even greater resemblance to that of OTL's Roman Catholic Popes during the same time period. Their nobility, spreading the word to neighbouring communities where they still practise Nri taboos such as slavery, takes on more of a 'Holy Order' vibe, provided with weaponry to counter raids in more lawless regions and authorised to use force to defend their assigned areas. In later generations, when other surrounding states begin encroaching on its domain, this theocratic militarisation develops still further, with the Kingdom of Nri raising standing armies from the wider populace to combat them, pushing them back out of its Holy Lands and eventually conquering them one-by-one.
With its vastly enhanced influence extending across the Gulf of Guinea, the Atlantic Slave Trade in the region is profoundly affected, effectively nipped in the bud when the Nri Empire repels the first European slave traders who come to the region looking for human cargo- and even outside its dominion, where the slave trade still continues to grow inexorably, the Nri religion, 'Odinani', and by extension its religio-polity, proliferates just as quickly among slave populations, driven by the growing desire for freedom and equality increasingly denied to them by their slave masters. With the example of the Nri religio-polity to serve as a framework and facilitate cooperation among diverse slave populations, slave uprisings both in Africa and in the New World are far larger, more organised and more widespread, and correspondingly have a far greater degree of success. With the Nri Empire finding itself at the centre of trade, diplomacy, religion and culture between these recently liberated nations, the eze Nri finds himself with the perfect opportunity to extend his sphere of influence across half the globe, and seal the Nri Empire's place as the undisputed African Great Power...
IOTL, the Kingdom of Nri fell into decline and its eventual demise because, in the end, it proved too idealistic to cope with the pressures and demands of the outside world. Ultimately, it had no way to protect the freedom of its people, either from infringing slave states or from the British slave traders when they came to claim their share of the Atlantic Slave Trade. The eze Nri wielded no military power, with the Kingdom of Nri maintaining its hold over its settlements and expanding further into new territories, not through military force, but by employing a class of missionary nobles to obtain them by ritual oath. They preached and practised a policy of religious pacifism, asserting that violence was an abomination which polluted the earth, and instead employed a form of excommunication (isolation from the wider community, in essence comparable to prison when declared against individuals and comparable to imposing a blockade when declared against an entire settlement). Given that the Kingdom endured for almost a milennia, the policy was clearly used to great success within their own borders, and greatly boosted trade in the region; but in the end, when faced with profiteering adversaries over whom their faith had no influence whatsoever, their no-violence policy would have inevitably led to their downfall.
So, for an ATL, you could have a Kingdom of Nri which, at a relatively early stage, abandons its policy of religious pacifism for a more militaristic 'crusader' mentality, with the eze Nri's role bearing an even greater resemblance to that of OTL's Roman Catholic Popes during the same time period. Their nobility, spreading the word to neighbouring communities where they still practise Nri taboos such as slavery, takes on more of a 'Holy Order' vibe, provided with weaponry to counter raids in more lawless regions and authorised to use force to defend their assigned areas. In later generations, when other surrounding states begin encroaching on its domain, this theocratic militarisation develops still further, with the Kingdom of Nri raising standing armies from the wider populace to combat them, pushing them back out of its Holy Lands and eventually conquering them one-by-one.
With its vastly enhanced influence extending across the Gulf of Guinea, the Atlantic Slave Trade in the region is profoundly affected, effectively nipped in the bud when the Nri Empire repels the first European slave traders who come to the region looking for human cargo- and even outside its dominion, where the slave trade still continues to grow inexorably, the Nri religion, 'Odinani', and by extension its religio-polity, proliferates just as quickly among slave populations, driven by the growing desire for freedom and equality increasingly denied to them by their slave masters. With the example of the Nri religio-polity to serve as a framework and facilitate cooperation among diverse slave populations, slave uprisings both in Africa and in the New World are far larger, more organised and more widespread, and correspondingly have a far greater degree of success. With the Nri Empire finding itself at the centre of trade, diplomacy, religion and culture between these recently liberated nations, the eze Nri finds himself with the perfect opportunity to extend his sphere of influence across half the globe, and seal the Nri Empire's place as the undisputed African Great Power...
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Sun Myung Moon avoids his court case in the USA and the Unification Church is much more successful. At the beginning of the 1990s North Korea collapses along with the Soviet Union. As the famine and chaos is resolved with reunification, missions and charity from the Unification Church lead to mass conversions. North Koreans as a whole do not react with the scepticism of people used to an open society and mass media, and many argue the true parent Moon fills a psychological hole left by Kim. The Unification Church north of the parallel forms a greatly significant political-religious constituency.
The most powerful political force in Korea is now the Moonie cult. Unending anti-Communist and anti-Chinese rhetoric is coupled with a fraught relationship with Washington owing to the infectiously poor public image of the Moonies. This leads Korea to pursue an independent nuclear arsenal.
The most powerful political force in Korea is now the Moonie cult. Unending anti-Communist and anti-Chinese rhetoric is coupled with a fraught relationship with Washington owing to the infectiously poor public image of the Moonies. This leads Korea to pursue an independent nuclear arsenal.
How well would China to the Moonies now ruling North Korea and the loss of the rule of the Kims? I am not sure they would stand by as North Korea implodes.
Old Airman
Banned
Several ideas of my own:
1. Ukraine. Events in 1200-1400 should go a slightly different way, keeping Southern portion of "Ruthenia" out of direct subordination to Grand Duchy, allowing it to develop a distinct nationhood. Therefore, RP becomes tripartite union of Poland, Lithuania (incorporating most of what is Belarus today), Ruthenia. Later on Ruthenia splits from the union (likely, over religious conflict, as per OTL), managing to balance between Turkey, Muskovy and Union long enough to establish itself as a recognized kingdom. Once industrialization starts, Ukraine becomes a regional power to rival Poland.
2. Uralia. POD should be sometime in early middle ages, allowing farming/mining population (most likely, by Kievan Slavs migrating NE, as per OTL) of what is Central and Southern Ural range and neighboring regions, later on separating it from the Central Russian plain (easy to do by opening and closing "the Kazan Gate" of Volga-Kama confluence with nomadic hordes). By the time Ivan the Terrible open Kazan, we have a self-sustainable entity sitting on what's the best ore/coal/mineral deposits by standards of pre-industrial or early industrial age. It is a bridge too far for Ivan (or any other medieval or early modern) army, so we have "Russian Ural", eventually dominating Siberia.
3. Novgorod. POD is very easy - early introduction of potato, breaking Novgorod's dependence on "lowland grain" (i.e. Muskovy). Hard to say where it goes from there, but there's a good chance to get something at least as powerful as Poland. With a bit of help from friendly ASBs, Novgorodians (who'll always have a lot of population to spare and have access to oceans through White/Barents sea) can even colonize whole or parts of Eastern Canada (Northern Russians and Scandinavians are only European groups who'll be comfortable in Canada from the very beginning - it took French 2 centuries to adjust to the climate).
1. Ukraine. Events in 1200-1400 should go a slightly different way, keeping Southern portion of "Ruthenia" out of direct subordination to Grand Duchy, allowing it to develop a distinct nationhood. Therefore, RP becomes tripartite union of Poland, Lithuania (incorporating most of what is Belarus today), Ruthenia. Later on Ruthenia splits from the union (likely, over religious conflict, as per OTL), managing to balance between Turkey, Muskovy and Union long enough to establish itself as a recognized kingdom. Once industrialization starts, Ukraine becomes a regional power to rival Poland.
2. Uralia. POD should be sometime in early middle ages, allowing farming/mining population (most likely, by Kievan Slavs migrating NE, as per OTL) of what is Central and Southern Ural range and neighboring regions, later on separating it from the Central Russian plain (easy to do by opening and closing "the Kazan Gate" of Volga-Kama confluence with nomadic hordes). By the time Ivan the Terrible open Kazan, we have a self-sustainable entity sitting on what's the best ore/coal/mineral deposits by standards of pre-industrial or early industrial age. It is a bridge too far for Ivan (or any other medieval or early modern) army, so we have "Russian Ural", eventually dominating Siberia.
3. Novgorod. POD is very easy - early introduction of potato, breaking Novgorod's dependence on "lowland grain" (i.e. Muskovy). Hard to say where it goes from there, but there's a good chance to get something at least as powerful as Poland. With a bit of help from friendly ASBs, Novgorodians (who'll always have a lot of population to spare and have access to oceans through White/Barents sea) can even colonize whole or parts of Eastern Canada (Northern Russians and Scandinavians are only European groups who'll be comfortable in Canada from the very beginning - it took French 2 centuries to adjust to the climate).
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
But potatoes originated in the New World, so how is Novgorod going to get potatoes? Alternatively, they could grow some quinoa or even black rye.
Old Airman
Banned
This is the ASBish part. May be Norse managed to create a toehold in Newfoundland and some sea king, crazy enough to go South, cross Panama and reach Peru, brought it back before Big Freeze of 1300? Scandinavians don't have manpower to colonize Eastern Seaboard on their own, so even surviving Norse colony in Newfoundland would not be a threat to Novgorodian America
))))HeavyWeaponsGuy
Banned
Novgorod's other big issue is its location: Novgorod's Western location gave it precisely what it needed to be a major trading power among the Russian states, but it also exposed it to invasion from the West when the Teutonic Order came by. And it's certainly not difficult to imagine other emerging regional powers challenging Novgorod in the Baltic either.
Muscovy had the perfect location: it was eastward enough to avoid being ravaged by groups like the Teutonic Knights, but it wasn't so far east that it would have been raided by the Mongols.
Not to mention Muscovite princes employed the extremely astute tactic of building up their own power by basically acting as the enforcer of Mongol rule.
Old Airman
Banned
Novgorod was able to cope w/Orders IOTL quite well. Despite all the propagandist brouhaha around Aleksander Nevsky, Novgorodians delivered much heavier blow to Livonians in the Battle of Wesenberg. Swedes were a bigger threat, but they could not claim a string of successes against Novgorodians too - both sides traded blows, with some regions in what is today Karelia changing hands each decade or so
So, life would not be easy for Novgorod, but not impossible.Moscow was less than a hundred miles from the Lithuanian border as crow flies, and was attacked regularly and successfully by Mongols (it took musket-armed infantry, cannons and a biggest fortification system after the Great Wall to somewhat protect the capital region of Muskovy from puny Crimea). Moscow did have some location-related advantages, but they were not as big as one might imagine while looking at the map of XIX-century Russian Empire
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
Also, could we have a Slavic entity arising outside Europe and become a regional power in its own right besides Russia?
Old Airman
Banned
My "Uralia" somewhat fits the definition, sitting on the border between Europe and Asia and having a distinct nationhood after couple of centuries of development apart from Mother Russia
As far as overseas Slavic entity is concerned, you need to have a combination of good ocean access and having spare population to ship overseas to create a population base. And it all must happen between 1500 and 1700, so colonists would have muskets to fight off locals and sailing ships to transport the population. So, geography and history isn't on your side, but something half-plausible is working.
I kinda tested the water with Novgorodian Kanada
Novgorodians, using White Sea ports, beat the French in the race to claim possession of Svyatoy Lavrenty river and create a relatively populous colony They can do it, since Quebec climate is an improvement comparing with their native lands. Later on, when big bad Muskovy finally conquers the Novgorod, there's an exodus of Novgorodians, as well as formal migration of the Republican government, to their overseas territory (much as Portuguese king became an Emperor of Brazil after Portugal was conquered by Napoleon).Other then that, methink you'll need to look at either PLC or Ottomans to create such an entity. Polish magnates selling Ukrainians to some overseas landlord after Khmelnitsky's revolt is dealt with? Ottomans trying to solve the Serbian question by re-settling them in Africa? Catherine the Great buying some piece of real estate in South America and shipping Cossacks there after Pugachev is defeated? Some sort of quakery like this
Brendan set out onto the Atlantic Ocean with sixty pilgrims in 512AD searching for the Garden of Eden. His chief companions were Malo and Columba. On his trip Brendan is supposed to have seen Saint Brendan's Island before landing in the Promised Land and then returning...
Thus the voyage of three saints, led by St Brendan the Navigator, laid the groundwork for an Irish/Celtic new world.
Needless to say without the Irish monks Europe has descended into an unrecognizable form of Christianity. Centuries later the followers of the 12 Apostles of Erin and their pan-Atlantic Empire are not keen on the heretic Europeans...
Thus the voyage of three saints, led by St Brendan the Navigator, laid the groundwork for an Irish/Celtic new world.
Needless to say without the Irish monks Europe has descended into an unrecognizable form of Christianity. Centuries later the followers of the 12 Apostles of Erin and their pan-Atlantic Empire are not keen on the heretic Europeans...
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
My "Uralia" somewhat fits the definition, sitting on the border between Europe and Asia and having a distinct nationhood after couple of centuries of development apart from Mother Russia
As far as overseas Slavic entity is concerned, you need to have a combination of good ocean access and having spare population to ship overseas to create a population base. And it all must happen between 1500 and 1700, so colonists would have muskets to fight off locals and sailing ships to transport the population. So, geography and history isn't on your side, but something half-plausible is working.
I kinda tested the water with Novgorodian Kanada
Other then that, methink you'll need to look at either PLC or Ottomans to create such an entity. Polish magnates selling Ukrainians to some overseas landlord after Khmelnitsky's revolt is dealt with? Ottomans trying to solve the Serbian question by re-settling them in Africa? Catherine the Great buying some piece of real estate in South America and shipping Cossacks there after Pugachev is defeated? Some sort of quakery like this
I'm leaning towards the Ottomans setting up their "Siberia"-like penal colony for the Slavs in North Africa. One other thing: how entrenched is Islam among the Berbers and Tuaregs?
Old Airman
Banned
Serbs in Northern Africa? This is well and truly ASB. A colony of fanatical warlike Christians (Serbs who were not Christian fanatics became OTL Bosnians) on Maghreb shores is an invitation to ay adventurous European power to gain a foothold in the Islamic heartland. Even France, for all it chumminess with Ottomans (they shared an enemy - Habsburgs), would be tempted to pounce on the chance. And it would be the best X-mas present since New World riches for Spanish Habsburgs. Ottomans were many things, but imbeciles they were not (in fact, they were quite skilled colonial administrators, they held their multi-ethnic and multi-faith empire longer than Russia was able to hold it's own). They would not do a mistake like this. So you can just fuggetaboutit. Besides, Berbers and Touaregs settled in Islam well before the Battle of Kosovo, so there's no turning back.
I was toying with idea of Turkish "Siberia" in what's Eritrea today, but the climate is too hot and too different from either Balkans or Ukraine. Slavic popuation would not survive there if they're convicts dumped on the shore, and there're no mines to work on. So Ottomans would never be able to recoup even the costs of transit. And the next relatevely available area with suitable climate is South Africa if you use Red Sea as a starting point. A bridge waaaaay too far for Ottomans without ASB help, so I abandoned the idea.
However, then I saw Madagscar on the map and it got me thinking... It has wast "almost Mediterranean" highlands, and Sothern Slavic farming population can survive (and even prosper) there. Now, who needs Madagascar? Bingo! If Russians realize earlier than OTL that it is infinitely easier to SAIL to their Far Eastern holdings than to ride through Siberia, they might need a stopover. And Turks need a way to get rid of their restive Christian subjects without risking to be on receiving end of their muskets during next Russo-Turkish war (IOTL Serbian and Bulgarian anti-turkish militants did run to Russia in some numbers, but Turks tried to intercept them, as they were the most motivated part of Russian army). So, some kind of formal or informal agreement is hammered around, say, 1740, that all and any Chtistian slavs are free to leave Ottoman lands as long as Russians promise to ship them to Madagascar. It is not completely ASB to expect a hundred thousands be shipped there in 1750-1850, so there you have it... Slavic "Southern Africa" on an island.
