So, with an alternate World War 1 that allows Ukraine to become independent of Russia, have Ukraine stay independent as a nation state( being a me of Federations is allowed) and have it rise to become a highly developed nation along the lines big modern day Poland at least. Besides Ukraine being independent after World War one, or an alt Great War, anything is allowed. I do this because I find it rare that people wank Ukraine, and I think it's about time it get wanked, not as apart of an alt Russian empire/USSR, but as a nation in it's own right.
AHC: Wank Ukraine
- Thread starter NiGHTS
- Start date
TheSpectacledCloth
Gone Fishin'
Unless the Soviet Union's military is more crippled than OTL or if Ukraine has guaranteed German protection, then I don't see how Ukraine would survive against a later invasion by the Soviet Union. The German Empire did try to defend the sovereignty of Morocco against France before WW1. I don't see a reason why Germany wouldn't do the same for Ukraine against Russia. Ukraine doesn't specifically have to be a German puppet either, as Ukraine's existence was beneficial to German interests and detrimental to Russian strength.
Emperor-of-New-Zealand
Kicked
Germany's interests in the Ukraine were to use it as a breadbasket and supply themselves with grain. They didn't want or need much more than Poland and Lithuania as actual buffer states. Of course, weakening Russia was the over-all goal, but Ukraine was never intended as a buffer against Russia.
I guess if Ukraine somehow plays up a sort of Cossack national identity then they might be able to federate with the Don and Kuban republics somehow?
TheSpectacledCloth
Gone Fishin'
Suppose so. Guess the only legitimate thing that would save Ukraine's independence after World War I is if the Russian Civil War was far worse and it took much longer to repair the Russian army. If sustaining Ukraine would not have been in German interests, then there would be little stopping the Soviet Union from eventually invading Ukraine, whether it is the same time as OTL or much later in time.
Emperor-of-New-Zealand
Kicked
Oh, I don't think Germany wouldn't 'sustain' Ukraine; they would likely defend it against the spread of communism.
It's really difficult because none of the Whites, the Reds, the Germans or the Poles really wanted an independent Ukraine to succeed (although the Reds at times said otherwise), and the Ukrainian army wasn't very good. Ukraine desperately needed an outside infusion of an effective fighting force to survive 1919 or it would be finished. There's a possible candidate: Let the Czech Legion seize the railroads similarly to OTL (taking additional rail junctions if necessary) and then head south in early 1919 and form an alliance with the Ukraine nationalist government. Thereafter, no matter how the Russian Civil War unfolds, if the Czechs and their Ukrainian allies fight well enough, an independent Ukraine can gain recognition in the postwar settlement.
Scenario one: Central Powers Victory in WWI
Because Vasyl von H-L is my hero, I'll say he becomes King of Ukraine. He along with P. Skoropadsky rule Ukraine as an Authoritarian regime. Vasyl eventually with the help of his former comrades in the Sich Rifles essentially creates a Nationalist coalition to reform the country along Fascist/Corporativist lines. OTL's Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists.
Ukraine also undergoes heavy industrialization. IOTL Vasyl was able to raise large amounts of money from Spanish and German investors for various projects, some related to Ukrainian independence some not. ITTL King Vasyl uses that money to help industrialize many parts of the Nation. Agriculture is also modernized. Ukraine imports heavily from Germany but is also becoming more industrialized.
Depending on how you want this WWI to play out, and the subsequent interwar this changes many things. I would guess something along "Kaiserreich; Legacy of the Weltkrieg" lines. Since WWII would be totally different.
Because Vasyl von H-L is my hero, I'll say he becomes King of Ukraine. He along with P. Skoropadsky rule Ukraine as an Authoritarian regime. Vasyl eventually with the help of his former comrades in the Sich Rifles essentially creates a Nationalist coalition to reform the country along Fascist/Corporativist lines. OTL's Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists.
Ukraine also undergoes heavy industrialization. IOTL Vasyl was able to raise large amounts of money from Spanish and German investors for various projects, some related to Ukrainian independence some not. ITTL King Vasyl uses that money to help industrialize many parts of the Nation. Agriculture is also modernized. Ukraine imports heavily from Germany but is also becoming more industrialized.
Depending on how you want this WWI to play out, and the subsequent interwar this changes many things. I would guess something along "Kaiserreich; Legacy of the Weltkrieg" lines. Since WWII would be totally different.
MalcontentRex
Banned
This is not along the lines of what you all have said already but here goes. Ukraine is, to put it mildly, not a country known for its humane and progressive treatment of its Jewish minority. Quite independent of the Nazis, Ukraine had its own brutal mistreatment of Jews well underway by WWII (although the Germans certainly assisted the UPA, etc. in their bestial endeavors). I am under the impression that Babii Yar, etc. were largely of Ukrainian planning and volition, merely augmented by Hitler's forces.
Without the persecution and eventual all-out genocide of Ukrainian Jewry, Jewish culture/science can flourish much more and help to enrich and modernize the nation. I would argue that one of the key reasons the Nazis eventually lost the war was due to their driving out or murdering all of their brilliant Jewish scientists.
Without the persecution and eventual all-out genocide of Ukrainian Jewry, Jewish culture/science can flourish much more and help to enrich and modernize the nation. I would argue that one of the key reasons the Nazis eventually lost the war was due to their driving out or murdering all of their brilliant Jewish scientists.
Insider
Banned
Good point, but what stops the putative independent Ukraine from oppressing their Jewish minority? The only hope for that I could see, is some strong government that keeps antisemitism under the lid. It would probably boilover few times, but you would end up with a few pogroms instead of a genocide. The problem twofold. First, such government would be tempted to utilise antisemitism to gain popular support. Secondly, police states rarely perform well economically, so they may fail even with participation of minorities. The margin between tightening the screw so much that it would snuff out the spirit of entrepreneurship, and loosing it enough to prompt population to settle the old scores is pretty narrow.
Lastly the independent Ukraine would not operate in a vacuum. Even with the best performance, all may be ruined when your neighbour decides that the border post should be arranged some other way.
How so? Babii Yar was fully planned and carried out by the SS and Wehrmacht. Ukrainian police assisted them in rounding up people, but it was the Nazis who planned it all and who committed the actual massacre. Later, the Nazis used the same location to carry out massacres of Soviet PoWs, some Ukrainian nationalists, various Kiev civilians...
That's not to say there was no anti-semitism in Ukraine. There certainly was, and it could easily spill over into the legal acts and behavior of an independent Ukrainian state. But Ukrainians were not the driving force behind the Holocaust and there is little reason to assume anything on that level would take place in an independent Ukraine.