AHC - Save the British Motorcycle Industry

[GarethC]

But really, if you were a 1960s Richard Branson, would you want to buy into AMC or BSA, or acquire one of their brands, such as Triumph, Norton or Matchless? Motorcycle sales are dropping, labour relations are a strike-infested disaster.

That's kind of the point - if you did pick up a brand, it would be on the premise of pretty much closing it down and starting over. You want a marque that's not in production, ideally, so you can put a new factory with a new workforce who join the firm without any illusions as to how much money there is going to be, preferably who agree to no-strike clauses in the contracts in exchange for binding wage settlement arbitration and profit-sharing terms.

To be brutally honest, I can't see a manufactuing startup in the UK in the 60s succeeding.

 

[yulzari]

What the Japanese did was see untapped markets then make motorcycles that were reliable to draw on those markets. The British motorcycle workshops made motorcycles with as little investment as possible and then looked to see who might buy them. Hence the Japanese made an industry and the British (pre Bloor) ran craft workshops on a shoestring. ie product oriented not market oriented.

 

[Admiral Beez]

What the Japanese did was see untapped markets then make motorcycles that were reliable to draw on those markets. The British motorcycle workshops made motorcycles with as little investment as possible and then looked to see who might buy them. Hence the Japanese made an industry and the British (pre Bloor) ran craft workshops on a shoestring. ie product oriented not market oriented.

Don't forget that the Japanese motorcycle companies also expanded their product lines, for example, Honda started making cars quite early on (similarly to BMW). Sure, BSA owned Daimler (before selling it to Jaguar) and at one time Triumph cars and bikes were the one firm, but there's no equivalent into the 1960s in the UK of a bike firm using its success to get into mass market cars.

And, the Japanese bikes have the advantage of a lot of industrial and financial backing from their mother companies. For example, Kawasaki motorcycles is of course owned by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_Heavy_Industries

 

[Just Leo]

Honda established his own heavy industry, although he did hire finance and marketing experts.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

Don't forget that the Japanese motorcycle companies also expanded their product lines, for example, Honda started making cars quite early on (similarly to BMW). Sure, BSA owned Daimler (before selling it to Jaguar) and at one time Triumph cars and bikes were the one firm, but there's no equivalent into the 1960s in the UK of a bike firm using its success to get into mass market cars.

And, the Japanese bikes have the advantage of a lot of industrial and financial backing from their mother companies. For example, Kawasaki motorcycles is of course owned by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_Heavy_Industries

BSA itself produced cars a few times under its own name as well as the Lanchester marque (that was also sold to Jaguar along with Daimler), which is why IMHO they are the prime candidates to go down the war reparations route in once more restarting car production under the BSA marque by either building their version of the DKW F9 prototype (that better ties into the OTL DKW-based BSA Bantam motorcycle) or a car based on the Volkswagen Beetle (with the services of Ferdinand Porsche). Additionally OTL BSA during the 50s also wanted to assemble the Panhard Dyna Z in the UK though the government stopped this from happening by preventing the importation of ready made body panels and did not have the capacity despite its size and resources to produce its own such body panels.

 

[marathag]

The larger British motorcycle firms (AMC, Noton, BSA, etc.) were all public companies, and investor relations at the time were to funnel all profits into dividends to the shareholders in order to maximise stock price. This meant that nothing was reinvested into innovation or quality

Honda has been a Public Company for a long time, since at least the early '60s

 

[Just Leo]

did not have the capacity despite its size and resources to produce its own such body panels.

The same lack of press capacity that Supermarine faced for the production of Spifire leading edges.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

The same lack of press capacity that Supermarine faced for the production of Spifire leading edges.

In BSA's case their solution was to design a completely new Lanchester that incorporated the best features of the Panhard Dyna Z, which led to the ill-fated Lanchester Sprite project that was powered by a 1622cc 4-cylinder derivative of the Daimler Conquest engine mated to the underdeveloped Hobbs Mechamatic transmission (with a number of non-structural body panels being constructed of light-alloy instead of steel) until the project was finally killed off in 1956 soon after the ouster of Sir Bernard Docker by the BSA board as a result of mainly Lady Docker's extravagant expenses.

Which included the Docker Daimler show cars made available for Lady Docker's personal use, a £5,000 gold and mink ensemble that Lady Docker wore at the 1956 Paris Motor Show that she tried to write off as a business expense as she "was only acting as a model" at the show, and Glandyfi Castle, bought with £12,500 of BSA's money and refurbished for £25,000, again with company money.

In other words money that could have been better invested elsewhere short of BSA's ATL war reparation car proving successful and profitable enough to butterfly away the impact of the Dockers extravagant expenses on the company.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Best option is to get export-destined production out of Britain; away from the unions, the high GBP, government interference, management incompetence and culture of disbursements over re-investment.

In the 1970s, IIRC, Bombardier or another Canadian firm came close to buying the Meriden plant or was it Norton? I'll have to dig through my books.

I do like Triumphs, here's mine....

 

[Masked Grizzly]

A few OTL mostly post-war motorcycle manufacturers that may or may not have grown to become the British version of Honda in better circumstances include:

AER -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AER_%28motorcycles%29
Ambassador Motorcycles - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambassador_Motorcycles
DMW Motorcycles - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMW_Motorcycles
EMC Motorcycles - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMC_Motorcycles

Though many more might have sprung up via earlier steps similar to those mentioned in the Make British Industry as strong as possible thread.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Had the 58hp Triumph Trident debuted in 1966, especially with the original styling (see 1965 prototype below), BSA's Triumph unit could have won huge market share, as this is nearly five year ahead of the CB750 from Honda.

This in 1966...

Not this in 1970...

 

[Admiral Beez]

If I'm this super rich British industrialist; in 1959 I buy Standard-Triumph and its brand new factory in Speke, Liverpool (before Triumph's acquisition by BL in 1960) and Triumph Engineering (Meriden) and all its branding/IP from BSA. My next move....

Triumph Engineering (Meriden)

• Call in all staff, tell them you will have one union in the plant, and that union gets a seat (or two) on the Triumph board of directors (this is the model for labour peace at BMW and in Japan).
• Terminate labour agitators. All union votes are now secret ballots.
• 1960, cancel the scooters and discontinue the 500cc twins.
• 1961, cancel racing program
• Transfer production of the 650 twins, including the new Bonneville to BSA's plant for next five years, as part of the acquisition deal.
• Shut down the entire Meriden plant, temporarily lay off (with their foreknowledge of the plan) the entire production staff, demolish the factory.
• 1960-1964, engineering/design staff (all in-house) instructed to have a new 750 triple ready to launch in 1965. Focus of new machines is:
  • Keep the classic Triumph style (no bread basket tanks or ray guy silencers, etc.)
  • Power, smooth (no vibration), 5-speed trannie (with overdrive), excellent handling
  • Well-equipped (disc brakes, turn signals, electric start)
  • Build quality and reliability (forget Lucas electronics, buy Bosch)
  • Oil Tightness (horizontally-split cases)
  • Forget Amal and their leaky carbs, buy Mikuni
• Nov 1964, Triumph Trident is launched at Earl's Court motorcycle show (six years before Honda's CB750)
• Dec 1964, new plant re-opens at Meriden, with latest tech, production and logistics methods (might need some Japanese Kanban consultants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanban).
• Jan 1965, first Triumph Tridents ship to North American market, followed by domestic and other export shipments.
• Mar 1965, Trident wins motorcycle of the year awards world-wide
• Dec 1965, production of Triumph twins at BSA terminated, with BSA retained to produce and supply parts support for the Triumph 500/650 unit twins for next five years.
• Feb 1966, Triumph announces return to factory road racing
• Nov 1967, Earl's Court motorcycle show, launch of the 900cc Trident and 1,200cc Quadrant (one year before the Honda CB750).
• 1970, Thunderbird tourer is launched to American market (four years before the Honda Goldwing):
  • Shaft drive
  • 1,200 Quadrant engine
  • Fairing, panniers
  • 6-speed trannie
  • Extended range tank

Standard-Triumph

• Same staffing, union changes as above.
• 1960-63, new factory in Speke, Liverpool temporarily closed and upgraded with focus on quality, logistics, innovation. Car production temporarily outsourced.
• 1964, all Triumph production moved to the Speke factory, all other Triumph factories sold or closed.
• In 1965, produce the following models: 2000 (coupe and estate), 1300 (maybe RWD) and TR5. Skip everything else, no Heralds, Spitfires, etc.
• 1966, purchase Studebaker's Hamilton, ON plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studebaker_Canada
  • Rebuild and re-tool, but no engine plant until justified (import the I-6 or buy something local)
  • Assemble the 2000 for the USA market, benefiting from the 1965 Auto Pact.

 

[marathag]

ebuild and re-tool, but no engine plant until justified (import the I-6 or buy something local)

Buy the AMC 196 I6. It's Aluminum OHV with cast iron sleeves. It's the last iteration of the Nash I6 Flathead from WWII. It's due for replacement with the larger, all new 232 I6 in 1964
It's fairly reliable for the era, but not as much as the older all iron flathead, which were unkillable. 135HP from a 2bbl carb.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

Going back to the Light-Car proposal in OTL there were quite a few production microcars that used motorcycle-based engines such as the Honda N360 / Honda Z and BMW 600 / BMW 700 along with others from Opperman, Fairthorpe Cars and Berkeley Cars that largely used motorcycle-based engines from other companies.

There was also the Duncan Dragonfly prototype that used a 500cc 2-cylinder air-cooled OHV BSA motorcycle engine (likely from the BSA A7 motorcycle) that was bought by Leonard Lord of Austin (after lack of interest from Jaguar and BSA) as well as the Austin A20 prototype that used a 500-670cc 2-cylinder 2-stroke engine from Joseph Ehrlich of EMC Motorcycles, with BMC later focusing on other parallel endeavors.

Even Kawasaki and Ducati considered producing microcars such as the early-60s Kawasaki KZ360 and 1946 Ducati DU4.

Bike-engined Cars - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bike-engined_car#List_of_production_cars_with_motorcycle_engines

Duncan Dragonfly - http://www.clan-duncan.co.uk/duncan-healy.html

 

[Simon]

Best option is to get export-destined production out of Britain; away from the unions, the high GBP, government interference, management incompetence and culture of disbursements over re-investment. In the 1970s, IIRC, Bombardier or another Canadian firm came close to buying the Meriden plant or was it Norton? I'll have to dig through my books.

I'm not certain but from what I can tell it unfortunately looks as though the Canada-United States Automotive Products Agreement excluded motorcycles. Perhaps if the agreement were to also cover motorcycles it might tempt someone, aside from selling to the Canadian market, to use it as a base try and enter the US one as well? The Canadian dollar was pegged to the US dollar from 1962 until 1970 so without the threat of currency fluctuations that could be another incentive.

To be brutally honest, I can't see a manufactuing startup in the UK in the 60s succeeding.

Depends, the Conservatives had recognised that something needed to change with Fair a Deal to Work in 1968 and even parts of Labour with In Place of Strife in 1969. Since Wilson was forced to withdraw his support for In Place of Strife by a Cabinet revolt the Conservatives seem like the best bet. The 1964 general election was very close - only roughly three and a half thousand votes across nine constituencies would be needed to reverse the results, eight and half thousand votes changed across twenty marginal constituencies would give the Conservatives a majority of seventeen - and there are some minor changes that could have seen them do better so Home leads the party to victory. With the way things are going and being the party of government forcing their hand earlier they decide to pass an industrial relations act that is a mix of A Fair Deal to Work and In Place of Strife in say 1966 or 1967, it's pretty much guaranteed to be repealed after Labour win in 1969 but in those two or three years it allows your proposed proto-Branson to set up shop and strike a decent deal with the new workforce. They're still likely going to take a beating in the 1970s but it's the best I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Going back to the Light-Car proposal in OTL there were quite a few production microcars that used motorcycle-based engines such as the Honda N360 / Honda Z and BMW 600 / BMW 700 along with others from Opperman, Fairthorpe Cars and Berkeley Cars that largely used motorcycle-based engines from other companies.

There was also the Duncan Dragonfly prototype that used a 500cc 2-cylinder air-cooled OHV BSA motorcycle engine (likely from the BSA A7 motorcycle) that was bought by Leonard Lord of Austin (after lack of interest from Jaguar and BSA) as well as the Austin A20 prototype that used a 500-670cc 2-cylinder 2-stroke engine from Joseph Ehrlich of EMC Motorcycles, with BMC later focusing on other parallel endeavors.

Even Kawasaki and Ducati considered producing microcars such as the early-60s Kawasaki KZ360 and 1946 Ducati DU4.

Bike-engined Cars - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bike-engined_car#List_of_production_cars_with_motorcycle_engines

Duncan Dragonfly - http://www.clan-duncan.co.uk/duncan-healy.html

If you want a near-micro car that has export market potential, go with the Hillman Imp

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/make-the-hillman-imp-a-success.400353/

Its engine was from Coventry Climax, makers of past engines for AJS (though I suspect it was for a car, not a bike), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coventry_Climax#Climax-powered_vehicles

Anyway, here's the Imp's engine in a Norton frame.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

If you want a near-micro car that has export market potential, go with the Hillman Imp

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/make-the-hillman-imp-a-success.400353/

Its engine was from Coventry Climax, makers of past motorcycle engines for AJS, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coventry_Climax#Climax-powered_vehicles

Here's the Imp's engine in a Norton frame.

Am basically after a UK class of 4-wheeled microcars that typically though not always use motorcycle-derived engines like Honda did with the N360 whose engine was based on the Honda CB450 motorcycle or the BMW 600/700 whose engine were based on the BMW R51/3 motorcycle, since it would benefit UK motorcycle manufacturers either developing their own microcars or supplying motorcycle-based engines to other microcar manufacturers.

Envision such cars being sold in the UK, Continental Europe as well as parts of South America and Asia that would likely be respective to such microcars.

Also it seems BSA in hindsight missed a lot of post-war opportunities aside from not acquiring the DKW F9 or Volkswagen Beetle as war reparations, since many design elements of the BSA-engined Duncan Dragonfly sold to Austin / BMC ended-up appearing on the Mini.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Am basically after a UK class of 4-wheeled microcars that typically though not always use motorcycle-derived engines like Honda did with the N360\

But how does pursuit of a dead-end road with microcars help save the British motorcycle industry?

Britain is already making good small cars by the 1950s, the Morris Minor and then Mini is about equal to the Beatle. The Austin A3 is nearly a microcar itself, but can seat five.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

But how does pursuit of a dead-end road with microcars help save the British motorcycle industry?

Britain is already making good small cars by the 1950s, the Morris Minor and then Mini is about equal to the Beatle. The Austin A3 is nearly a microcar itself, but can seat five.

It would cater to those in UK on motorcycle licenses who in OTL could only drive 3-wheelers (temporarily fitted without reverse gears at one point) yet be smaller then the Mini or OTL 3-wheelers (with dimensions ranging from Fiat 500 at its largest and OTL Kei Cars such as the Subaru 360 at its smallest) with roughly half the engine displacement (500-700cc).

With such vehicles essentially replacing the OTL 3-wheelers while motorcycle manufacturers profit from being part of the segment whether as Microcar producers themselves or as engine suppliers, along with producing UK equivalents of the Fiat 500 Abarth for Microcar racing and such engines also finding their way into other 4-wheeled motorsport categories like the 750 Formula (invented by the 750 Motor Club) as an accessible cost-effective form of racing. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/750_Formula and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/750_Motor_Club

The Austin A30, Morris Minor and Volkswagen Beetle would be roughly part of what is now the proto-Golf class cars whereas the Mini in terms of dimensions would be roughly considered part of the proto-supermini class, the ATL microcars would be smaller then the Mini and exported to markets likely to be receptive to microcars.

 

[Admiral Beez]

It would cater to those in UK on motorcycle licenses who in OTL could only drive 3-wheelers

They tried that with the Reliant Robin, Bond Bug and Minicar, Berkeley T60, Invacar, AC Petite (shown below), etc.

There were plenty of three wheel British cars. If your only differentiation is that they use a motorcycle engine, well, I'd say that's not enough. No one cares about the motor, as long as it goes.