I agree that logistics, supply, and sheer stubborness on the part of the Germans makes any sustained success doubtful.
Maybe if the infamous Frisian Island Campaign had worked.
AHC: Operation Market Garden is a success
- Thread starter Vingilótë
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I agree that logistics, supply, and sheer stubborness on the part of the Germans makes any sustained success doubtful.
Maybe if the infamous Frisian Island Campaign had worked.
Even if Market Garden had met its objective, it wasn't going to help the Allies end the war, because those objectives were based on a faulty assumption. Specifically, that an intact bridge over the Rhine was necessary and sufficient for the Allies to resume their advance. It was neither.
The Rhine wasn't an insurmountable obstacle to Allied engineers once they had friendlies on the far bank, bridge or no bridge. After using the damaged Remagen Bridge (which soon collapsed) to create an initial foothold, First Army threw six bridges over the Rhine between March 9 and March 20th while under fire. One of those bridges was built in only 10 hours. 3rd, 7th and 9th Armies were all able to repeatedly bridge the river within a day of their assault crossings with landing craft. Such landings could be easily made once Antwerp was open and the landing craft were no longer needed for supplies. Capturing a bridge intact, while helpful, was not actually needed. On the other hand, until Antwerp was opened, even an intact bridge wasn't going to do any good. XXX Corps couldn't secure the whole of Ruhr by itself while also holding open its own extended supply line. There needed to be a general advance, and for that the Allies needed to solve their supply problems (first fuel, then shells). Fundamentally, Market Garden was intended to solve a non-problem while failing to even attempt to address the actual one. The entire concept was flawed, and no amount of radios or moving of landing zones was going to change that.
The Rhine wasn't an insurmountable obstacle to Allied engineers once they had friendlies on the far bank, bridge or no bridge. After using the damaged Remagen Bridge (which soon collapsed) to create an initial foothold, First Army threw six bridges over the Rhine between March 9 and March 20th while under fire. One of those bridges was built in only 10 hours. 3rd, 7th and 9th Armies were all able to repeatedly bridge the river within a day of their assault crossings with landing craft. Such landings could be easily made once Antwerp was open and the landing craft were no longer needed for supplies. Capturing a bridge intact, while helpful, was not actually needed. On the other hand, until Antwerp was opened, even an intact bridge wasn't going to do any good. XXX Corps couldn't secure the whole of Ruhr by itself while also holding open its own extended supply line. There needed to be a general advance, and for that the Allies needed to solve their supply problems (first fuel, then shells). Fundamentally, Market Garden was intended to solve a non-problem while failing to even attempt to address the actual one. The entire concept was flawed, and no amount of radios or moving of landing zones was going to change that.
usertron2020
Donor
I have a question: What would have a limited success Market-Garden (Early clearance of the estuary, 1-3 division bridgehead on the east side of the Rhine) have done for Hitler's plans regarding the Ardennes?
Opinions, anyone?
Eisenhower was influenced by the fact of all the civilian casualties taking place in the UK due to the V weapons, and Monty was closer to the beachhead supply lines.
As to the Dutch Queen's comment? Funny, I never read of it. In Monty's memoirs.
Indeed. Wasn't it in a way a matter of badly overextending the Allies to the north while not securing the center?
Weren't these ports heavily fortified and built to withstand long sieges?
I have a question: What would have a limited success Market-Garden (Early clearance of the estuary, 1-3 division bridgehead on the east side of the Rhine) have done for Hitler's plans regarding the Ardennes?
Opinions, anyone?
I think that it would have pulled some of the forces earmarked, but if the bridgehead was not deep Ardennes may still be a go.
The Allies were overextended all over I believe, but the Center was one of the worst I think.
They well could be. I do not have that information. I was not a serious thinker that the Allies could have gotten those ports quickly online EVEN if they had captured them completely. Think Cherbourg +lots.
IIRC one of the reasons making up the demented train of thought for the Ardennes offensive as well as breaking through to capture the supplies at Antwerp and retake the offensive was to cut off the British armies in the Low Countries, the shock of the defeat and having their forces cut off causing them to surrender/and or pull out of the war. Yeah, by this point Supreme Command weren't really all that in touch with reality. If Market Garden has been successful and they have troops on the east side of the Rhine - personally I think you're being a little over optimistic with three divisions, logistics-wise I would have thought a reinforced division heavily dug in was more likely - I think it would actually act as further encouragement to carry the operation out.I have a question: What would have a limited success Market-Garden (Early clearance of the estuary, 1-3 division bridgehead on the east side of the Rhine) have done for Hitler's plans regarding the Ardennes?
Opinions, anyone?
usertron2020
Donor
I have a question: What would have a limited success Market-Garden (Early clearance of the estuary, 1-3 division bridgehead on the east side of the Rhine) have done for Hitler's plans regarding the Ardennes?
Opinions, anyone?
I winder what effect it might have had on tactical plans tho, regarding units and objectives.
I wasn't thinking
about logistics when I said "1-3 divisions". You are right. So too about putting a higher priority on the Ardennes.All of these are good points (including those in the previous message of course). I was just wondering what would be the minimal requirements, or what would be the list if we placed them in order of importance.
I'd probably begin by accepting the unavoidable casualties in a drop closer to the bridge. Actually being in control of both ends of the bridge before the Germans have time to react would more than make up for the initial casualties in such a drop.
Speed of the relief ground forces is the second item.
That is a very good point.
It depends on the condition in which the seaports, and that means essentially Rotterdam, are. Once you have Rotterdam and Antwerpen working, you should have excellent supply conditions for the whole North-German theatre.
I have a question: What would have a limited success Market-Garden (Early clearance of the estuary, 1-3 division bridgehead on the east side of the Rhine) have done for Hitler's plans regarding the Ardennes?
Opinions, anyone?
All the hassle of Market Garden for just sitting on the other side of the Rhine?
Even if going for the Ruhr, or roaming the flat terrain of NW-Germany is completely out of the question, I think that this bridgehead would need to be quickly reinforced to become a good deal stronger and to be used. That would require additional new bridges and continued operations to give it the strategical width of a few more square miles. And we have to remember that we assume a better supply situation (Antwerpen) as a pre-condition.
First of all, a smallish bridgehead invites potentially successful counterattack. But then, expansion is needed also in order to at least partially exploit the possibilities of the position at Arnhem I earlier enumerated.
My guess concerning the Ardennes: I think that Hitler would even more urgently wish to desire to have that big break in Belgium. In his grand scheme of things, conquering Antwerpen would of course also create an impossible situation for all Allied forces in the Netherlands - just like in glorious 1940.
Re-directing the German forces towards Arnheim instead would be too defensive for him. It would be a rather small objective and accomplish little in comparison.
Allied passiveness in these hilly forests might also lure the Germans in, just as the Romans were eager to get into Hannibals weak center at Cannae.
>They well could be. I do not have that information. I was not a serious thinker that the Allies could have gotten those ports quickly online EVEN if they had captured them completely. Think Cherbourg +lots.
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From what I've read all the major European ports had long been fortified (all the way back to pre-gunpowder days) and had long range coast artillery. Remember the Dieppe operation was a test to see if a port could be captured intact. German soldiers manning French coastal artillery heavy weapon bunkers were part of the reason it failed. The failure of that operation pretty much determined that an invasion would go in where the coastal defences were weaker.
Couple of observations
Antwerp was needed by US forces, British forces could be supplied from the other Channel ports that the Canadian army captured.
Any Arnhem bridgehead is going to be held by a reinforced Corps including 52nd division flown in, 43rd infantry, Guards Armoured, and iirc 51 st division. It will stretch from the Rhine to the Zuider Zee and should have bridgeheads over the Issjel.
What happens next is open to discussion but one sensible approach would be to halt US 3rd army, and for US 1st army to bridge the Rhine North of the Ruhr at sites captured by British advance down the east bank. meanwhile the Canadian army clearsAntwerp.
It wouldn't have been completely undefended - the movement orders were for only 9th SS Panzer Division Hohenstaufen with 10th SS Panzer Division Frundsberg slated to stay at Arnhem IIRC. Having half of II SS Panzer Corps out of the way would still be a large advantage though, even in the massively run down state they were in they still put up one hell of a fight.
Here’s my PoD: General Lewis Beretton, Commander of 1st Allied Airborne Army accepts General Frederick Browning’s offer to resign over Operation Linnet 2.
Because of this, Matthew Ridgeway and US XVIII Airborne Corps is in charge of Market instead of Browning and British 1st Airborne Corps.
With his greater experience of airborne operations, Ridgeway modifies the Market plan:
How the allied attack proceeds:
Because of this, Matthew Ridgeway and US XVIII Airborne Corps is in charge of Market instead of Browning and British 1st Airborne Corps.
With his greater experience of airborne operations, Ridgeway modifies the Market plan:
- The 101st and 82nd Airborne divisions are both to be dropped on The Island.
- The Nijmegen, Arnhem and Renkum bridges are to be taken by coup de main. One regiment is to be pushed over each bridge to secure the bridgehead. The rest of the divisions’ regiments will secure the island and act as reserves to reinforce any bridgehead that is threatened.
- Supplies for both divisions will be dropped at a central point on The Island, well away from German Flack.
- The Goesbeek heights are not to be secured until XXX Corps arrives.
- The larger British 1st Airborne Division is to be dropped North of Eindhoven to capture the bridges at Son and Veghel and secure the corridor.
- The Polish 1st Independent Parachute Brigade is to be dropped at Grave to secure the bridge over the Waal.
- There are to be two drops on the first day, Ridgeway persuading Beretton to override his air force commanders concerns about casualties due to tiredness.
How the allied attack proceeds:
- XXX corps advances on the original schedule.
- The US airborne divisions capture all the Waal and Lower Rhine bridges and are in a strong, defensible position on the Island.
- The SS armoured divisions attack the Arnhem bridgehead, Forces from 1st Parachute army attack Renkum and forces in the Reichswald attack Nijmegen but US reserves are available to defend threatened sectors.
- The Poles come under heavy pressure around Grave due to the Goesbeek heights not being secured but XXX corps arrives on day three, before the bridge is severely threatened.
- XXX Corps has to put in a major attack to clear the ground between Grave and Nijmegen but once there advances across the Island to Arnhem and Renkum.
- With the link up complete, a day is spent reorganising and consolidating.
- 50th (Northumbrian) Division attacks and secures the Groesbeek Heights.
- 43rd Wessex Division attacks out of the Arnhem Bridgehead tying up the SS Divisions while the Guards Armoured division breaks out from Renkum.
- Deelan Airfield is secured by the Guards Armoured Division.
- 52nd Lowland division lands at Deelan airfield and attacks the German forces around Arnhem from the rear.
- The Guards Armoured drives for the coast.
- It's another Falaise. The trapped German forces in Holland start withdrawing.
- Although some German units punch through the thin Allied defensive line, huge numbers are destroyed, captured or surrender. The Netherlands are liberated.
Speaking of Antwerp if XXX Corps under Horrocks had advanced from the city to the base of the peninsula even if they just dug in and blocked it off then it's going to have a large knock-on effect on Market Garden. They'll have decisively crossed the Albert Canal in strength and be in a position to be able to wheel right to the north of Turnhout and the Dessel-Turnhout-Schoten Canal being able to attack the German units that were dug in behind part of the Meuse-Escaut Canal. The next major line that the Germans can retreat to is the Wilhelmina Canal running from the mouth of the Maas down until it meets the Wessem-Nederweert Canal which runs roughly south-east until it joins the Maas, which means their having to give up Breda, Tilburg and Eindhoven.
It means you don't have to worry about crossing the Albert Canal, capturing Eindhoven, and that your ground forces start off roughly twenty miles further north. Frees up the 502nd and 506th Parachute Infantry Regiments (PIRs) of the 101st Airborne Division since you don't need them to take the Son bridge but unfortunately you still need the 501st PIR to take the Veghel bridge, they will however be relieved a lot sooner. If on the same day early enough to be recycled and dropped on the second day somewhere else maybe? What to do with the 502nd and 506th PIRs though. You could double down on Veghel but they already seem to have thought the 101st was enough for that so my choice would be to drop them with the 505th and 508th PIRs of the 82nd Airborne Division at Nijmegen, if people were so worried about the Groesbeek Heights then let them secure it whilst the 82nd gets on with the job of capturing the bridges at Grave and Nijmegen itself. Without buggering about with the Heights, an unfortunate multinational cock-up, they likely move fast enough to secure the bridges so that when Guards Armoured Division rolls up they don't have to waste time helping secure them and disposing of any pesky Germans putting them behind schedule. That should hopefully allow them to get to Arnhem in time to relieve the British 1st Airborne Division under Urquhart and Polish 1st Independent Parachute Brigade under Sosabowski, securing the bridges across the Rhine. At that distance logistics are going to be a complete pain in the arse but even if they don't move their existence forces the Germans to keep large numbers of troops to the north to counter them which will likely make forced crossings further south upriver easier.
Thoughts?
It means you don't have to worry about crossing the Albert Canal, capturing Eindhoven, and that your ground forces start off roughly twenty miles further north. Frees up the 502nd and 506th Parachute Infantry Regiments (PIRs) of the 101st Airborne Division since you don't need them to take the Son bridge but unfortunately you still need the 501st PIR to take the Veghel bridge, they will however be relieved a lot sooner. If on the same day early enough to be recycled and dropped on the second day somewhere else maybe? What to do with the 502nd and 506th PIRs though. You could double down on Veghel but they already seem to have thought the 101st was enough for that so my choice would be to drop them with the 505th and 508th PIRs of the 82nd Airborne Division at Nijmegen, if people were so worried about the Groesbeek Heights then let them secure it whilst the 82nd gets on with the job of capturing the bridges at Grave and Nijmegen itself. Without buggering about with the Heights, an unfortunate multinational cock-up, they likely move fast enough to secure the bridges so that when Guards Armoured Division rolls up they don't have to waste time helping secure them and disposing of any pesky Germans putting them behind schedule. That should hopefully allow them to get to Arnhem in time to relieve the British 1st Airborne Division under Urquhart and Polish 1st Independent Parachute Brigade under Sosabowski, securing the bridges across the Rhine. At that distance logistics are going to be a complete pain in the arse but even if they don't move their existence forces the Germans to keep large numbers of troops to the north to counter them which will likely make forced crossings further south upriver easier.
Thoughts?
Nearly two airborne divisions in Nijmegen/Groesbeck Heights, the British and Poles in Arnhem and XXX Corps start line on the Wilhemina Canal. Not as far to go and more troops to secure the crucial objectives.
This operation would succeed IMO - you aren't going 'a bridge too far' any more.
My dream scenario actually involves the use of the airborne forces earlier on to drop into the South Beveland peninsula in concert with XXX Corps advancing a little further to the base of it to help secure it, cutting off the escape route of those German troops trapped in the Breskens pocket. It takes a week or so of constant bombing and artillery bombardment but they're eventually broken down and the best part of an entire German army surrenders. Those that still make it to Walcheren and evacuate onwards are limited to carrying their personal weapons out. The delays caused by this means that Market Garden happens say two-three weeks later than our timeline. Things go pretty much like I suggest previously but with the added bonus that 9th SS Panzer Division Hohenstaufen will be safely back in Germany being rebuilt so that the British 1st Airborne Division and Polish 1st Independent Parachute Brigade have a slightly easier time at Arnhem. And as an added bonus with the majority of von Zangen's 15th Army captured at Breskens it means that German forces in the northern Netherlands are weaker so hopefully get taken care of sooner. That might be pushing things a bit much though.
Why would they want to? Taking Berlin was a complete meat grinder and pretty much expected to be, let the Soviets have that particular honour. As for the occupation zones I was under the impression that they had already been agreed on a year or two previously. Why bother needlessly antagonising the Soviets? In the case of the Roosevelt the Americans were rather naïve about them and still expected them to hold up their end of the bargain with regards to the post-war Eastern European states and their governments, I would have thought they wouldn't want to mess around with Germany in case they reneged on the deal. Of course Stalin did that anyway but that's another matter.
Maybe, but the occupation zones were a political decision, not 'you keep what you capture'. In OTL the US withdrew from territory they had occupied and handed it over to the Soviets and the British.
On the map you can see the three main powers got roughly a third of the rump Germany each. I can't see that changing much.
