AHC: Make Egypt the religious center of Western Eurasia

[Sabot Cat]

Your challenge is to make Egypt the religious center of "the world" (Western Eurasia), much like how ancient Palestine is the central location for the adherents of Abrahamic faiths in OTL. (e.g. Cairo, Alexandria, Amarna, etc. would be allohistorically analogous to Jerusalem, Vatican City, and Mecca). Bonus points if you make a faith that derives its dogma from ancient Egyptian religion (making Egypt the center of the Christian world through the Copts or Gnostics is not what I'm primarily looking for).

 

[SlyDessertFox]

Okay, so I'm not sure if you can get the ancient egyptian religion to be the dominant one with this POD, but you can certainly make Egypt the religious center:

That POD is to have a surviving Hellenistic Age (and possibly a slightly altered one, depending on how religion was in the hellenistic states, which I don't know much about at all). Alexandria was already the intellectual, cultural, and scientific center of the world, so it doesn't seem that much of a stretch to have it become the religious center, especially if you butterfly the Roman Empire as we know it, which is needed to keep the hellenistic age alive. This would almost certainly butterfly away Christianity, and thus any chance for the Abrahamic faiths to gain primacy as well.

A quick google search ( http://www.touregypt.net/emac6.htm ) seems to show that Greek and Egyptian religion mixed well. The God Serapis seemed to stand out, so I guess that would be the basis for any western-world spanning religion that has Egypt as its center. It could be attractive to other greco-roman states as well given how it has a lot of greek elements.

 

[Westphalian]

The cult of Isis was very popular in the Roman Empire. Wiki: " She was the friend of slaves, sinners, artisans, the downtrodden, but she also listened to the prayers of the wealthy, maidens, aristocrats, and rulers."

In other words, the mother goddess with her divine child Horus appealed to the same groups that were attracted by Christianity. Osiris as ruler of the dead could be easily adapted to a religion that promises a blessed afterlife to the faithful.

Having complex philosopical tenets for the intellectuals and simple, attractive myths for the comon people is easy in the Cult of the Divine Triad, too.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

If you have not read

"The Realm of Millions of Years": The World of an Atenist Egypt (

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... Last Page)
NikoZnate

then do so immediately.

While Atenism is only in its second? generation at this point, it's clearly spreading, and being the first monotheistic religion in the area is very likely to spread widely. Like all through Europe eventually.

 

[Dom Pedro III]

Your challenge is to make Egypt the religious center of "the world" (Western Eurasia), much like how ancient Palestine is the central location for the adherents of Abrahamic faiths in OTL. (e.g. Cairo, Alexandria, Amarna, etc. would be allohistorically analogous to Jerusalem, Vatican City, and Mecca). Bonus points if you make a faith that derives its dogma from ancient Egyptian religion (making Egypt the center of the Christian world through the Copts or Gnostics is not what I'm primarily looking for).

I think there's a few things to consider here.

Israel/Palestine's importance to the Abrahamic religion is very different from the Vatican. Israel is the setting for revelation. It is land granted to the "chosen people".

If you want Egypt to be a sort of administrative capital like the Vatican, one set of things could produce that. If you want Egypt to be viewed as a Holy Land of sorts, then the stories the religion is based on have to be based in real locations in Egypt. It's not enough that the religion itself starts in Egypt.

 

[jycee]

The cult of Isis was very popular in the Roman Empire. Wiki: " She was the friend of slaves, sinners, artisans, the downtrodden, but she also listened to the prayers of the wealthy, maidens, aristocrats, and rulers."

In other words, the mother goddess with her divine child Horus appealed to the same groups that were attracted by Christianity. Osiris as ruler of the dead could be easily adapted to a religion that promises a blessed afterlife to the faithful.

Having complex philosopical tenets for the intellectuals and simple, attractive myths for the comon people is easy in the Cult of the Divine Triad, too.

Agree. This is the way to go. The Cult of Isis was already gaining good traction in Rome at the same time Christianity did. Ultimately Christianity took over with a much faster rise. Take out Christianity and perhaps give Isis a prophet to polish the believes and set some form of organization and Isis should gain a good following.
With some luck it fully replaces Christianity as the prime religion in the west (at least the mediterranean) in such scenario. Egypt would then be the religious center of the west.

 

[Dom Pedro III]

Agree. This is the way to go. The Cult of Isis was already gaining good traction in Rome at the same time Christianity did. Ultimately Christianity took over with a much faster rise. Take out Christianity and perhaps give Isis a prophet to polish the believes and set some form of organization and Isis should gain a good following.
With some luck it fully replaces Christianity as the prime religion in the west (at least the mediterranean) in such scenario. Egypt would then be the religious center of the west.

I'm not sure about this. While Egypt would definitely be the original location of the religion, I'm not convinced that it would actually function as a real center of the religion.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

I'm not sure about this. While Egypt would definitely be the original location of the religion, I'm not convinced that it would actually function as a real center of the religion.

But note that the OP specifically mentioned Mecca and Rome for Abrahamic faiths, in addition to Jerusalem in 'palestine'. So even if the main cult centers ended in Rome or Carthage or wherever, there would likely still.be at least one cult center in Egypt, analogous to Jerusalem for the Abrahamics.

 

[Sabot Cat]

I think there's a few things to consider here.

Israel/Palestine's importance to the Abrahamic religion is very different from the Vatican. Israel is the setting for revelation. It is land granted to the "chosen people".

If you want Egypt to be a sort of administrative capital like the Vatican, one set of things could produce that. If you want Egypt to be viewed as a Holy Land of sorts, then the stories the religion is based on have to be based in real locations in Egypt. It's not enough that the religion itself starts in Egypt.

I'm aware of the differences, but I was hoping that an Egyptian city could perhaps be both.

If you have not read

"The Realm of Millions of Years": The World of an Atenist Egypt (

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... Last Page)
NikoZnate

then do so immediately.

While Atenism is only in its second? generation at this point, it's clearly spreading, and being the first monotheistic religion in the area is very likely to spread widely. Like all through Europe eventually.

I have, and it fascinated me. I hoped for my timeline to go more into the modern era to show the extent of the ramifications of an Egyptian faith in the Western world.

I think the near exclusivity of worship for Aten (a clear canon-heresy demarcation line) and a sacred text of sorts are pros, but it was rather flash-in-the-pan and started from the top and never really worked its way down.

Agree. This is the way to go. The Cult of Isis was already gaining good traction in Rome at the same time Christianity did. Ultimately Christianity took over with a much faster rise. Take out Christianity and perhaps give Isis a prophet to polish the believes and set some form of organization and Isis should gain a good following.
With some luck it fully replaces Christianity as the prime religion in the west (at least the mediterranean) in such scenario. Egypt would then be the religious center of the west.

I think there's major obstacles though:

1) A Demarcation Line between that which is canon and that which is heresy, which aided Christianity in rising above syncretisticm and polytheism. I don't really want Western Eurasian Hinduism, because such a religion wouldn't be uniquely Egyptian or have any real centers.

2) The patriarchy prevalent in Roman society. Could a cult centered on a female deity thrive in that time period with those cultural expectations?

However, I think that a good prophet of Isis could 'fix' these things, as you noted.

I'm not sure about this. While Egypt would definitely be the original location of the religion, I'm not convinced that it would actually function as a real center of the religion.

It would at least by seen as 'holy' by adherents to the faith.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

OTL, Atenism suffered from those faults, in Realm, those are starting to be corrected, theres already 'scripture' being written, and if theres a bit of a fuzzy line between canon and non-canon, well thats something that afflicted the Abrahamic faiths, too. In Judaism, the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Tanakh (Old Testament for us goyim), had a perceptibly different canon than what would officially be set most of a millenium later. Note, too, the the RCs, the Orthodox and the Protestants all have different canon for the Bible.

True that Atenism in Realm is top down, and very tied to the Egyptian state. This IS a problem. But the first monotheism can thrive even with major problems due to lack of competition.

 

[Dom Pedro III]

I'm aware of the differences, but I was hoping that an Egyptian city could perhaps be both.

And it can. I was really just looking to establish what you were looking for. Indeed, Jerusalem functioned as both an administrative center and as sacred ground. Jewish Temples sprang up in Leontopolis and Elephantine (both in Egypt), which were deeply contentious because many considered Jerusalem to be the only valid cultic center. But I think the validity of this cultic center was largely dependent on the region having been 'given' by God to the Jewish people according to their scripture.

It would at least by seen as 'holy' by adherents to the faith.

But note that the OP specifically mentioned Mecca and Rome for Abrahamic faiths, in addition to Jerusalem in 'palestine'. So even if the main cult centers ended in Rome or Carthage or wherever, there would likely still.be at least one cult center in Egypt, analogous to Jerusalem for the Abrahamics.

But I would say that Rome and Mecca are not really comparable. Mecca is a place where divine revelation supposedly took place. The Vatican, by comparison, is viewed as holy because the Pope resides there. If he decided to relocate to Milan or Naples, those places would be viewed as holy. And yes, I know that the Pope started out as the Bishop of Rome, but that position was due primarily to the city's political, economic and later historical significance rather than because it was considered sacred ground.

In order to have an Egyptian religion take hold elsewhere where Egypt continues to be seen as a 'Holy Land', you need the geography to become part of the mythos. You need more than just the original cultic centers in Egypt. You need the stories to be grounded in locations in Egypt.

You might be able to have the Nile become a sacred religion throughout Eurasia through a cult of Isis.

Atenism though offers the best opportunity for this IMO. Not because Akhenaten himself provided the basis for this. But perhaps his followers would write further stories about him and ground the religion in a particular geographic location.

If centuries later we get a "Book of Atenmose" or something saying "Thus the LORD spoke to Akhenaten, 'Build me a city at Amarna'", then you've got your Holy Land. Otherwise, I see Greeks, Romans and others assuming Egyptian gods without making Egypt a sort of religious pole for their faith.

 

[Troyer IV]

Hmm, a morphed sort of monotheism could propagate whereby the Pharaohs are actually worshiped outside of Egypt. Or, hell, just stamp out the monotheistic stuff in favor of a well-defined pantheon. I read once that the reason most* (not Hindu, of course) polytheistic societies failed to really branch beyond their respective homelands (though some were inter-related) was because they were so... fickle, I guess would be the right word in this case.

Likewise, the reason Catholicism became the leading faith in Europe was just out-and-out intolerance. Make it so that anyone not worshiping the Pharaoh gets his head smashed. And keep it up for a while. Maybe even go a'preaching into Arabia; even if they don't go all Caliphate-style expansionist, having a solid core of adherents could do wonders for buffering elements further to the East.

Beyond that, I'm lost. Truth be told, I'm a touch drunk and don't care enough. Neat idea, though.