AHC: How big a Britwank can WW2 get?

I agree with just about everything you've written here ...

To make it happen, to get the UK Government to commit earlier would require the perception of the French military to be radically different. The Anglo/French 'Alliance' was reliant on the British masterly of the sea, the French dominance of the Land and an air strength that matched that of Germany when combined.

For Britain to accelerate it's rearmament programme it has to either recognise that whilst on paper the French army was strong but in reality it was weak or the UK government has to be far more aggressive in nature.

If we consider the UK to be more warlike and start to properly re-arm a year or two earlier, why not also go the whole hog and invade Germany whilst it is still engaged in Poland (or shortly after). The BEF, which is now 2 or 3 three times larger than OTL, which is even more mobile and with better equipment and has the French army and the Maginot line to fall back behind if things don't go well, could quite easily make a huge incursion into German held territory and break the Germans before the war has even properly started.

An Earlier deployment to France of a portion of the BEF say in very early 39 for a training exercise/deterrence would expose the British to a lot with regards to what was wrong with the French Army at this time (and allow more time to address the obvious issues with the British Army - chiefly its smaller manpower)

This in turn would very likely lead to pressure from Whitehall to their French counterparts to sort it out.
 

hipper

Banned
Support Italian occupation of Italy, give teeth to the Stressa Front. Oppose Germany's reoccupation of the Rhineland with force.

Hitler falls Germany is Governed by a succession of weak democratic Governments.

form an Anti communist coalition in Europe with distant support for Japan.

America declares war on Japan after Japanese Provocation in China in late 1941.

America looses Philippines and Hawaii. as Japanese attempt shut america out of the Pacific for good. America is defeated in attempt to retake Hawai in 1943.

Britain hosts peace conference in which America regains Hawaii and the

Philippines become independent. America relapses into Isolationism.

In Europe an anti communist cold war continues until 1989 with Britain the leader of the Entente.

Easy
 
Support Italian occupation of Italy, give teeth to the Stressa Front. Oppose Germany's reoccupation of the Rhineland with force.

Hitler falls Germany is Governed by a succession of weak democratic Governments.

form an Anti communist coalition in Europe with distant support for Japan.

America declares war on Japan after Japanese Provocation in China in late 1941.

America looses Philippines and Hawaii. as Japanese attempt shut america out of the Pacific for good. America is defeated in attempt to retake Hawai in 1943.

Britain hosts peace conference in which America regains Hawaii and the

Philippines become independent. America relapses into Isolationism.

In Europe an anti communist cold war continues until 1989 with Britain the leader of the Entente.

Easy

No offence but I can't see America losing to Japan in a war.
 
I always fail to see what LUCK had to do with Sickle Cut ... to me luck in battle is something that happens to change the course of the battle that is completely outside the control of either combatants. To me Sickle Cut was a calculated risk that paid off, it was planned and executed well against an alliance that contained three main parties, one of which was prepared for mobile warfare but too small to really influence the outcome, one that was not so well prepared to meet the German war machine and also too small to influence the outcome and a third that was ill prepared for anything other than a static defensive encounter but contained the majority of the forces and maintained majority control over the two smaller allies. The German gamble worked ... it wasn't luck, it was good execution of a risky plan that counted on the French being as bad as they were.

Aren`t successful gambles and calculated risks inherently based on luck?
 
Aren`t successful gambles and calculated risks inherently based on luck?
Not at all, you calculate the likely outcome of something then gamble on whether that outcome actually occurs ... the least likely the outcome is the riskier the gamble, but it has nothing to do with luck in my eyes. As I've said I work on the basis that luck is outside the control of BOTH sides in a conflict. Luck to me would be bad weather, an earthquake, an outside party unexpectedly influencing the battle etc. etc. Luck is not the enemy making the choice you predicted or hoped for or gambled on, which is what happened with Sickle Cut.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Not at all, you calculate the likely outcome of something then gamble on whether that outcome actually occurs ... the least likely the outcome is the riskier the gamble, but it has nothing to do with luck in my eyes. As I've said I work on the basis that luck is outside the control of BOTH sides in a conflict. Luck to me would be bad weather, an earthquake, an outside party unexpectedly influencing the battle etc. etc. Luck is not the enemy making the choice you predicted or hoped for or gambled on, which is what happened with Sickle Cut.

What do you define as luck, then?
To me, it's a combination of two things:

1) Low probability events happen.
2) Events outside your control break in the way you want them to.

Everything else can be considered skill.

Now, I happen to think Sickle-Cut was the right choice, simply because the greater economic and manufacturing capability of the Western Allies meant their "steamroller" strategy would have won the war for them in just about any other German strategy adopted, while Sickle-Cut was an unlikely chance which had the possibility of victory.
That doesn't mean that it was likely to work, or that the Germans didn't get very lucky indeed. It just means any alternative would have basically have been worse.

Similarly, I think that Barbarossa was the right choice for the Germans as of late 1940 - because they were basically gambling that they could beat the USSR by forcing it to undergo a 1917-esque collapse.
This did not, in fact, come off. But, while unlikely, it's possible - and offers the possibility of victory. All other German options basically involve either being invaded by the USSR, becoming an economic satellite of the USSR, or stepping down their production for want of raw materials and seriously impeding their ability to fight the war.

The best choice as of mid 1940 would probably have been to offer a peace deal to the Brits - a good one - but aside from that their OTL choice was similarly a good one. It was basically to gamble on the British peace faction being successful - which is by no means assured, but it does avoid the pesky "having to invade somewhere without a fleet" which would be hard even if your enemy also had no fleet... as such, it offers the chance for success.


And what does all this mean?
It means that the Germans decided on strategies the success or failure of which depended on factors entirely outside their control - the French high command's decisions, the political situation in the Allied states.
The superior choice (if you can get it - it's rare!) is to force your opponent into a situation where any choice is a mis-step. One example is what Wellington did on the Peninsula - he withdrew behind the Lines of Torres Vedas, and his opponent had the choice between attacking (which would be very hard because of how strong the lines were), besieging (which would be hard because they'd stripped the countryside of food) or leaving (letting Wellington come back out and harass him again, and removing the threat to Lisbon).
Massena had no good answer to that one. He would have to... get lucky ;)
 
What do you define as luck, then?
To me, it's a combination of two things:

1) Low probability events happen.
2) Events outside your control break in the way you want them to.

Everything else can be considered skill.
If you look at my last post you'll see what I define as luck ...

'Luck to me would be bad weather, an earthquake, an outside party unexpectedly influencing the battle etc. etc. Luck is not the enemy making the choice you predicted or hoped for or gambled on'

With Sickle Cut, if you assume it was based partly on luck ... what low probability events or events outside the combatants control actually occured?

I'll give you an everyday example of what people might consider luck ...

A man places a bet on the Roulette wheel, gambling on the number twelve. The ball lands on twenty-one and the man loses. Is that bad luck or did he enter into the gamble knowing that his chances of success were slim?

Another example, this time from the BoB ...

Eagle Attack began on 13th August, the Luftwaffe hoped to defeat the RAF within 4-5 days so planned their attack to coincide with a predicted period of good weather. In reality there was good weather for 6 days then a period of bad weather for 5 days. During the 6 days of combat the RAF seriously felt the strain and if the attacks had continued may well have been broken by the end of August. As it was the 5 day break due to the weather gave the RAF time to make good their loses, repair their infrastructure, reorganise their defences and take stock of their situation allowing slight changes in the way they would conduct the rest of the battle. Now some might say the RAF got lucky with the weather, however this really doesn't have anything to do with the weather and everything to do with the Germans getting it wrong. They miscalculated how long it would take to break the RAF and based their plans on this miscalculation ... it wasn't luck it was just a bad choice.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
I don't mean outside the combatants control, plural. I mean outside the control of the specific combatant.
For example, the Germans could not control how far the Allies advanced into Belgium. If they'd taken a different plan and advanced less far, you get Blunted Sickle instead. As such, by my definition, the Germans got lucky in the choices of the French high command.
Similarly, the French could not influence the decisions of the German high command. They got UNlucky in the choice for Sickle Cut, which was made quite late in the game - the prior plan was a reprise of Schlieffen, which the Allies were quite well positioned to counter.

I suppose, using the roulette analogy:

The Germans had 100$, and needed to get $2000 to pay their bills. The casino is closing soon. So they gambled on 21, instead of "evens" - which would have less chance of losing straight off, but couldn't produce the amount required before the casino closed. So 21 was a known gamble, but also the best chance of achieving the goal - evens wouldn't and couldn't.
(This isn't a great analogy, but it's better than nowt.)
 
The Whale has Wings makes a lot of sense, what makes it jarring is when you compare it to OTL.
Besides which, the Americans are doing better so far in that timeline as well.
 
Within the realms of plausibility of course.

PLAUSIBILITY being the keyword.

Whale Has Wings?

:). Good plausibility IF you can accept a British government in the Great Depression [1] going for naval air re-armorment at a time when disarmament was all the rage.

1] Though it should be remember that the UK was riding out the 30s economically better than any other Western country.

A wank is when one country rolls the dice and it keeps landing on a six while the other country (or countries) rolls the dice and it keeps landing between one and five. Germany between 1936 to 41/42 is an example of the former and Britain the latter.

The logical key however being that you can't wank one part of an alliance (Axis or Allied) while screwing the others. Rising tides raising all boats and such.:)

Oppose Germany's reoccupation of the Rhineland with force. Hitler falls Germany is Governed by a succession of weak democratic Governments. Form an Anti communist coalition in Europe with distant support for Japan.

Too much political dissension and too little anti-communism at a time when European economies are in the dumpster.

America declares war on Japan after Japanese Provocation in China in late 1941.

The Rape of Nanking wasn't enough? Must be SOME provocation. The Japanese Army turns cannibal?:eek::eek: Besides, Isolationism plus FDR's determination that Japan strikes first means FDR can't get a DoW against Japan without a direct attack on the USA.

America loses Philippines, as the Japanese attempt to shut America out of the Pacific for good.

While the Japanese ignore all the Imperial colonies of Europe sitting astride their LOCs to the Philippines, and with no oil to wage this war? The Dutch, France, the Netherlands, and ESP. the British aren't selling their raw materials to the Japanese while they are at war with the USA.

America loses Hawaii, as the Japanese attempt to shut America out of the Pacific for good. America is defeated in attempt to retake Hawai in 1943. Britain hosts peace conference in which America regains Hawaii and the Philippines become independent. America relapses into Isolationism.

This scenario runs the gamut from Unspeakable Seamammal to full blown ASB. Google "Two Ocean Navy" & "Oahu Defenses 1941-42" & "Pearl Harbor Raid Fuel Limitations". Gingrich & Forstchen's books about the Japanese conquering Hawaii were for entertainment (Alternative history), not serious studies. That's why they totally ignored the whole of WWII outside of the islands, as if the rest of the world didn't even exist.

And BTW, after the termination of the Anglo-Japanese Alliance in 1922, no way do the Japanese trust the British of all people to conduct peace negotiations.

In Europe an anti communist cold war continues until 1989 with Britain the leader of the Entente.

Easy

You actually believe that a Europe that embrace a social democratic cradle-to-grave safety net for its population can ALSO pay the costs for the Cold War on its own? OTL does not offer encouragement.

No offence but I can't see America losing to Japan in a war.

There are some pretty silly TLs around here of America being repeated beaten again and again and again in exactly the kind of war it COULD fight.

The Whale has Wings makes a lot of sense, what makes it jarring is when you compare it to OTL. [2] Besides which, the Americans are doing better so far in that timeline as well. [3]

2] Yeah, things could hardly have been worse for the British before the BoB, and things continued afterwards to go badly all the way until the end of the Second Happy Time and Second El Alemain.:(

3] Before Astrodragon shaved his head and joined the Hare Krishnas:p, he put together a great TL where even the USSR enjoyed advantages [4] from having the Royal Navy/Fleet Air Arm kicking ass all over the world [5].

4] An entire panzer corps pulled out of the Rostov/Stalingrad/Caucasus campaign and sent to the Med (non-OTL), easing pressure on the Soviets during the most critical battle in all of WWII.

5] And allowing the opportunity for the US Army (to a small 1-2 divisional level) to get into action against the Italians and Germans in Sicily. Alongside the British/CW/French of course.
 
Support Italian occupation of Italy, give teeth to the Stressa Front. Oppose Germany's reoccupation of the Rhineland with force.

Hitler falls Germany is Governed by a succession of weak democratic Governments.

form an Anti communist coalition in Europe with distant support for Japan.

America declares war on Japan after Japanese Provocation in China in late 1941.

America looses Philippines and Hawaii. as Japanese attempt shut america out of the Pacific for good. America is defeated in attempt to retake Hawai in 1943.

Britain hosts peace conference in which America regains Hawaii and the

Philippines become independent. America relapses into Isolationism.

In Europe an anti communist cold war continues until 1989 with Britain the leader of the Entente.

Easy

1) Italian occupation of Italy?

2) Supporting Japan isn't going to work as French and British colonies are at risk.

3) America isn't going to lose a war with Japan at this point.

4) The Japanese won't trust Britain to host the peace conference after they ended the Anglo-Japanese Alliance.

5) The Colonial Empires of Britain, France and most of the other European powers are going to dissolve and when it does, I don't think Britain would end up the strongest (and thus, the leader) of Europe.
 
America looses Philippines and Hawaii. As Japanese attempt shut America out of the Pacific for good. America is defeated in attempt to retake Hawaii in 1943.
This scenario runs the gamut from Unspeakable Seamammal to full blown ASB. Google "Two Ocean Navy" & "Oahu Defenses 1941-42" & "Pearl Harbor Raid Fuel Limitations". Gingrich & Forstchen's books about the Japanese conquering Hawaii were for entertainment (alternative history), not serious studies. That's why they totally ignored the whole of WWII outside of the islands, as if the rest of the world didn't even exist.
This page, Invasion: Pearl Harbor!, from over on the Combined Fleet site lays out pretty clearly the reasons why a Japanese invasion of Hawaii were a complete impossibility. They also have an associated page Why Japan Really Lost The War that neatly illustrates the imbalances involved. To my mind it's not so surprising that the Japanese lost, they were insane enough to start things off knowing they didn't have enough transport tonnage for the conflict but somehow just expected that they'd be able to seize the foreign vessels they needed or increase domestic production, but that they were able to do as well as they did initially.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
This page, Invasion: Pearl Harbor!, from over on the Combined Fleet site lays out pretty clearly the reasons why a Japanese invasion of Hawaii were a complete impossibility. They also have an associated page Why Japan Really Lost The War that neatly illustrates the imbalances involved. To my mind it's not so surprising that the Japanese lost, they were insane enough to start things off knowing they didn't have enough transport tonnage for the conflict but somehow just expected that they'd be able to seize the foreign vessels they needed or increase domestic production, but that they were able to do as well as they did initially.
Well, remember they were basically hoping for basically a Russo-Japanese War again. A short war where the enemy surrenders based on naval defeats and loss of important ports before the supply issues come home to bite Japan.
 
Killing off Churchill probably goes a long way towards improving things.

That man was not qualified to run a war effort and Britain's military fortunes were directly proportional to how far its generals were willing to ignore and disobey him.


Norway, loss of the second BEF, Greece (rendering Britain's only early war success useless) and in part the far east catastrofuckstorm can all be laid partly at his feet.

There were many talented individuals in his cabinet and government who would on a technical level been an order of magnitude better.
 
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