AHC: Austria-dominated Germany

[ImperialVienna]

I just became aware that adult Ludwig Viktor had ahem character foibles (very public homosexuality and transvestitism) that shall be rather embarassing for the Habsburg once he's put in the very public status of a monarch and shall create a dynastic crisis in the long term (he could not even muster the effort to pick a beard wife and sire some children like most gay nobles typically did, and Franz Joseph eventually forbade him to stay in Vienna). When he becomes adult, he shall probably have to be goaded into abdication and be replaced by another Habsburg (or perhaps by a Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen).

I've been aware of Ludwig Viktor's homosexuality since before I devised the plan of four thrones for four sons. He would take the Polish Throne at the age of 6 and I've acted under the impression that sexual orientation is not something that can be altered or butterflied away. That said, I feel it very likely that in a scenario where Ludwig Viktor is King of Galicia/Poland that Sophie would drill into his head the importance of creating a Polish Line. She likely would do this to all of her sons. As a result Ludwig Viktor might take a wife and establish a royal line for the sake of Dynasty. In the event that he doesn't there is now plenty of precedent for the Habsburgs to force him to abdicate in favor of one of his cousins' lines (probably Karl Stephan). I don't see the Habsburgs allowing any of their thrones to pass out of the family, after all they fought the War of Spanish Succession basically over dynastic rights In any case, it makes for an interesting story to be told as part of the AH.

As for the creation of a TL, to be blunt I would prefer that the idea of 4 Thrones for the 4 Sons of Franz Karl and Sophie be left for me to flesh out someday in a TL. That said obviously I can't forbid anyone from developing it (as I see someone's already started), those are just my feelings on the subject. I would not be reading or available for comment on any such TLs because I do genuinely want to write it out someday and would not want cross contamination to occur (I fear Eurofed has already influenced me too much )

 

[Van555]

you know it really isn't fair for me to come in and take your idea..

i know that technically no pod is copyrighted but yet maybe i should try something more bold so im gonna drop this to the backburner and think

hats off too you good sir and may you get started soon i'm going too try something outside of Europe o maybe further back

 

[Van555]

actually I may try poland- wank to get Poland into space

or Russia

 

[Eurofed]

I've been aware of Ludwig Viktor's homosexuality since before I devised the plan of four thrones for four sons. He would take the Polish Throne at the age of 6 and I've acted under the impression that sexual orientation is not something that can be altered or butterflied away. That said, I feel it very likely that in a scenario where Ludwig Viktor is King of Galicia/Poland that Sophie would drill into his head the importance of creating a Polish Line. She likely would do this to all of her sons. As a result Ludwig Viktor might take a wife and establish a royal line for the sake of Dynasty. In the event that he doesn't there is now plenty of precedent for the Habsburgs to force him to abdicate in favor of one of his cousins' lines (probably Karl Stephan). I don't see the Habsburgs allowing any of their thrones to pass out of the family, after all they fought the War of Spanish Succession basically over dynastic rights In any case, it makes for an interesting story to be told as part of the AH.

As for the creation of a TL, to be blunt I would prefer that the idea of 4 Thrones for the 4 Sons of Franz Karl and Sophie be left for me to flesh out someday in a TL. That said obviously I can't forbid anyone from developing it (as I see someone's already started), those are just my feelings on the subject. I would not be reading or available for comment on any such TLs because I do genuinely want to write it out someday and would not want cross contamination to occur (I fear Eurofed has already influenced me too much )

Agreed about the rest, but Nivek's objection that Hohenzollern cooperation to the plan need to be bought has merit. Galicia is a relatively minor part of the Habsburg dynastic state, ceding its throne to the Hohenzollern to gain the imperial throne of Germany is a much less painful concession than some unwieldy imperial co-rulership within Germany. "Selling Krakow to win Berlin" seems to me something that TTL far-sighted Habsburg would easily find acceptable, given the PoD. Three sons get three thrones, the fourth may go without and be left content with his drag parties.

 

[Jimbrock]

As for the creation of a TL, to be blunt I would prefer that the idea of 4 Thrones for the 4 Sons of Franz Karl and Sophie be left for me to flesh out someday in a TL. That said obviously I can't forbid anyone from developing it (as I see someone's already started), those are just my feelings on the subject. I would not be reading or available for comment on any such TLs because I do genuinely want to write it out someday and would not want cross contamination to occur (I fear Eurofed has already influenced me too much )

Hear, hear. A Habsburg TL with Ivy's opposition would be interesting, but probably very hard for the writer. And sorry to say this, but with the possibility of contaminating such a great idea and PoD with... Poland wank (poland cannot into space, remember?) would be a waste. Ill be interested in both, though.

 

[Eurofed]

Hear, hear. A Habsburg TL with Ivy's opposition would be interesting, but probably very hard for the writer. And sorry to say this, but with the possibility of contaminating such a great idea and PoD with... Poland wank (poland cannot into space, remember?) would be a waste. Ill be interested in both, though.

What is Ivy ??

As a matter of fact, this TL would in all likelihood see, if Pole nationalists keep their heads on the ground and don't get funny ideas about Posen and stuff, a moderate amount of Polewank. Galicia/Poland would become a junior member of the Habsburg alliance and their proxy in the East. If they get any luck with their wars with Russia (very very likely), Galicia may get back Congress Poland, the Kresy, Lithuania, maybe even western Ukraine. The Habsburg Proto-EU economic union would jumpstart economic development to a fairly 2nd tier industrial power, they would have their own nation, no Nazi/Communist domination, etc. They may even get some token colonies. They just have to try really hard and imagine that nothing Slav exists or ever existed west of the Oder.

 

[Van555]

it is interesting stuff, but ive decided to let others have a crack at it, but i'll try my version

 

[Nivek]

What is Ivy ??

As a matter of fact, this TL would in all likelihood see, if Pole nationalists keep their heads on the ground and don't get funny ideas about Posen and stuff, a moderate amount of Polewank. Galicia/Poland would become a junior member of the Habsburg alliance and their proxy in the East. If they get any luck with their wars with Russia (very very likely), Galicia may get back Congress Poland, the Kresy, Lithuania, maybe even western Ukraine. The Habsburg Proto-EU economic union would jumpstart economic development to a fairly 2nd tier industrial power, they would have their own nation, no Nazi/Communist domination, etc. They may even get some token colonies. They just have to try really hard and imagine that nothing Slav exists or ever existed west of the Oder.

Ivy is the Imperial Vienna Nickname/Shortname to reffer him.. i remeber that for this timeline 'All Hail Germania'... And like the people say.. the POD doens't have trademark.. but the written and 'histories' of this .. yes but that is another tale(check your PM box Eurofed)

Again.. Yes Poland and the Hohenzollern is the most tricky of all.. the Hohenzollern will want and demand than they didn't lose power in Germany... and with giving the Hasburg Poland and the Whole Baltic is maybe the only good and rasounable price tag who i can see too...(but the Co-Dominium is still pausable.. he better to Friederich to say that he is the Co-Emperor than the King of Prussia and the Vassal of the Habsburg Emperor... still prestige matters) and that is better than anything

Again... we have the clay.. now we need give them the shape

Att
Nivek von Beldo

 

[Jimbrock]

What is Ivy ??

As a matter of fact, this TL would in all likelihood see, if Pole nationalists keep their heads on the ground and don't get funny ideas about Posen and stuff, a moderate amount of Polewank. Galicia/Poland would become a junior member of the Habsburg alliance and their proxy in the East. If they get any luck with their wars with Russia (very very likely), Galicia may get back Congress Poland, the Kresy, Lithuania, maybe even western Ukraine. The Habsburg Proto-EU economic union would jumpstart economic development to a fairly 2nd tier industrial power, they would have their own nation, no Nazi/Communist domination, etc. They may even get some token colonies. They just have to try really hard and imagine that nothing Slav exists or ever existed west of the Oder.

Ivy, the phoneticisation of IV, being the acronymn for Imperial Vienna. Youre completely right about Poland, but Im sorry if I managed to scare away Van. I think several renderings of the same PoD might actually prove very interesting, if a bit repetetive.

 

[Mirza Khan]

Since the Hapsburg-led '48 idea now has its own couple threads, I'd like to bring up a different POD for an Austria-unified Germany (albiet one already mentioned on the first page)-what if Empress Elizabeth lives a few years longer, and Russia doesn't withdrawal from the Seven Years War? Is it possible that Prussia gets kicked down so far that they effectively loose "great power" status? And would Germany unify more quickly under Austrian leadership in this case?

 

[Van555]

hmm thats another good one.

 

[Van555]

Actually I Know the P.O.D I want but I'm kinda confused. what is the best time for back room deals to take place. I fear when Ferdinand abidicates It's to late but May when the congress first opens in may it's too late. What is the best time for it to start.

I was thinking that maybe i could give the Prussians a land connection in Germany instead so that galacia could get a kingdom.


Thoughts? these Are the last things i need to know

 

[Eurofed]

Actually I Know the P.O.D I want but I'm kinda confused. what is the best time for back room deals to take place. I fear when Ferdinand abidicates It's to late but May when the congress first opens in may it's too late. What is the best time to start?

In all likelihood, the abdication of Ferdinand and the ascent of the new pragmatically-minded leadership of the Habsburg has to occur within days of the insurrection in Vienna, in early-mid March. The new Habsburg leadership needs to be in place very soon in the timetable of the revolution, so it can start making public declarations and back-room deals that shall swing public opinion and influential nationalist leaders in Germany, Italy, and Hungary to their side. The more they wait, the more the position of their rivals (the Savoy, Prussia, nationalist radicals of all stripes) shall reinforce.

 

[Eurofed]

also do you think the only way that Prussia would except is to give them galacia... because i was thinking thaget sort oft maybe the prussians get sort of a northern German federation thing to link up their lands. thoughts

It is theoretically feasible form the PoV of the German states, but it would lead to two German nations, not one. Most German nationalists would be radically hostile to the idea, since it defies the purpose of the exercise, and the Habsburg need their support to push all the German states to accept unification. Much better to stick to the Hohenzollern Galicia idea.

 

[Van555]

alright what do think would be it's name? The kingdom of the East?

or the balt-pole- ukraininan- pruess commonwealth

and should prussia get the honor of both being a German state and a new kingdom or should the area outside of the confederation be ceded?

ohh or the Hohenzollern get galacia but with the promise of congress Poland and the Baltic

thoughts?

 

[Nivek]

It is theoretically feasible form the PoV of the German states, but it would lead to two German nations, not one. Most German nationalists would be radically hostile to the idea, since it defies the purpose of the exercise, and the Habsburg need their support to push all the German states to accept unification. Much better to stick to the Hohenzollern Galicia idea.

Yes that is the Problem.. the Hohenzoller control the most Vital Part of Deutchland(Rhineland.Silesia, and part of the center) and have influence in the South(Baden ann Wutterberg).. and we know what happen OTL... you simply can't outruled or destroy the Hohenzoller if you want a Deutches Reich now lead by the Habsburg... you need to convied then to Join... Here EF give the price to bargain(Galicia-Future Poland Under a minor Hohenzoller... the future Baltic under Personal Union) any another scheme will fail and mean a more disunited germany..

 

[Van555]

So Does this mean that galacia should combine with posen with promise of baltic nations and congress to form a new Hohenzollern nation.

OR that Prussia remains Hohenzollern but galacia is spun off hohenzollern , with the promise of Baltic and congress poland with Prussia as a german nation within personal union with galician kingdom

does this make sense

ohh you mean Hohenzollern galacia- poland with the Baltic added to pussia then? or Baltic added to Galacia Poland within personal union of prussia

Ok final try the end result should be eventually:

Prussia-member state of German empire under Hohenzollern, while in personal union With A Baltic kingdom

galacia-hohenzollern king with future union with congress poland+ more

 

[Nivek]

So Does this mean that galacia should combine with posen with promise of baltic nations and congress to form a new Hohenzollern nation.

OR that Prussia remains Hohenzollern but galacia is spun off hohenzollern , with the promise of Baltic and congress poland with Prussia as a german nation within personal union with galician kingdom

does this make sense

ohh you mean Hohenzollern galacia- poland with the Baltic added to pussia then? or Baltic added to Galacia Poland within personal union of prussia?

EEERRR... NEIN

The idea was to give the Hohenzoller House the Territory of Galicia(who gonna be under the Lesser Hohenzoller-Sigmarine but under Hohenzollern control/sphere of Influence + the rest of Poland and the United Baltic State(OTL Estonia+Latvia) under Personal Union(Only the Baltic Duchy) in case of a future war with Russia...

In few world.. the Habsburg bride the Hohenzollern with the promise of a little union of vassal states in Eastern Europe under their leadership in exchange to recongize the Habsburg as the Emperor of Germany and some minor change inside Germany

the only price than can recgonize to lose the posibily of leading germany and the loss of Prussia as a Suzeranity State(External policy)

 

[Van555]

EEERRR... NEIN

The idea was to give the Hohenzoller House the Territory of Galicia(who gonna be under the Lesser Hohenzoller-Sigmarine but under Hohenzollern control/sphere of Influence + the rest of Poland and the United Baltic State(OTL Estonia+Latvia) under Personal Union(Only the Baltic Duchy) in case of a future war with Russia...

In few world.. the Habsburg bride the Hohenzollern with the promise of a little union of vassal states in Eastern Europe under their leadership in exchange to recongize the Habsburg as the Emperor of Germany and some minor change inside Germany

the only price than can recgonize to lose the posibily of leading germany and the loss of Prussia as a Suzeranity State(External policy)

Ok, so this mean Hohenzollern Baltic State in personal union with pruss and lesser Hohenzollern polish state

while still ruling the state of Prussia which is now a part of the habsburg german nation and has given up external control.

is this correct?

 

[Nivek]

Ok, so this mean Hohenzollern Baltic State in personal union with pruss and lesser Hohenzollern polish state

while still ruling the state of Prussia which is now a part of the habsburg german nation and has given up external control.

is this correct?

Yes that is more correct... Because with OTL German Union(who change their name to Empire for Prestige and Propaganda Issues) the German States renounce to their Suzerainty but not their Sovereignty in their own states(maybe lose a litle via the Reichstag but under the Reichsrat still have their internal affairs)

Here even with the most liberal constitution.. you need to appeal a lot of King(and the very powerful King of Prussia) and that is our proposal to them...

Att

Nivek von Beldo