AHC: America Wins the War of 1812

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Wolfpaw, Aug 24, 2012.

  1. Wolfpaw Banned

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    All on the tin folks.

    Have the United States secure a territorial gain and decisive victory against the British in the War of 1812.

    Best of luck, chaps; Jefferson didn't leave Mad Jimmy much of a military to fight with.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2012
  2. The Ubbergeek Insane internet demigod (TN)

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    Maybe a secret deal with french-canadian leaders would help. There was that famous battle with the Carrignan group(?) who shown the border there was a point, and well..
     
  3. Lycaon pictus Author of "Locksmith's Closet"

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    I'd say this, plus a victory at Lundy's Lane and/or Hull hanging on in Detroit.
     
  4. Elfwine Byzantophilic Brony

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    How does Hull hanging on in Detroit mean an offensive victory?

    I mean, okay, its a start - but what happens after . . . whatever happens to make that matter?
     
  5. imperialaquila Aspiring Thru-Hiker

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    Maybe avoid the French invasion of Russia, and have the British devote more resources to the Peninsular War? That would leave even fewer British troops for the Americas and allow the US an opening to make some gains. It might also make the British more desperate for peace, with all resources being needed to combat the French in Spain.

    Along with this, you could have the US fight a war with Spain in the early 1800s over Louisiana and Florida. This might give an incentive to keep the US regular army stronger relative to its OTL weakness, with the memory and lessons of a recent war.
     
  6. The Ubbergeek Insane internet demigod (TN)

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    Good points. You rise the frequently forgotten reality that by this time, international events way farther than home may have repercutions home... And remembered that the US army was honest Shite for much of the nation's history...
     
  7. Elfwine Byzantophilic Brony

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    Given how limited the forces in Canada were OTL, would it really matter?
     
  8. Lycaon pictus Author of "Locksmith's Closet"

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    By itself it isn't much, but if the French Canadians rise up, Isaac Brock and the British forces in Upper Canada will have American forces to east and west and be cut off from reinforcements.


    Agreed. Probably the only way the Americans could not only win the war but have it stay won — that is, not have to face Wellington and about 50,000 men a few years later — would be if the war against Napoleon ended in stalemate and the British had to stay focused on France. (Although it's hard to imagine Napoleon being satisfied with a stalemate.)
     
  9. Elfwine Byzantophilic Brony

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    And if wishes were horses. . .

    Why are the French Canadians going to rise up in significant (to the issue) numbers, and how is Hull going to be able to take advantage of that?
     
  10. The Ubbergeek Insane internet demigod (TN)

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    If they won the catholic clergy over some promise like help to settle a ' free Canada' (as we were known as Canadiens still for many) and so the bourgeois and all, possible maybe. Far fetched and improbable, due to the still existing anti-frenches and anti-papists feelings down south, yeah, but who know...

    It's a reason why 1837 failed - no backing of the elite.
     
  11. Sucrose Member

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    Why would the French Canadians rise up, knowing that the inevitable outcome would be annexation to the US? They'd be throwing away their trump card against being mistreated by the Anglophones, which is the possibility that they might revolt and join the US. If I was the leader of the French Canadians, I'd desperately want that border slicing the continent in half to stay put.
     
  12. The Ubbergeek Insane internet demigod (TN)

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    Hence why I say improbable and far fetched. Only if the USA would accept a somewhat 'buffer state 'finlandised' to their interest, and the french-canadians are fine this way...
     
  13. Georgie Porgie Well-Known Member

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    The 1812 war has to be most notible for the lack of luck each side had. If the breaks went differnetly in each battle then the outcome would have been vastly different.

    The US Army was well trained, but small and relied on state milita. The British were a formidable force, but like the Americans lacked a certain amount of agressive leadership.

    I could easily point to 10 points were vital decisions were delaid and a battle lost, giving us the stalmate we ended up with.

    The thing is that it was in no-ones interest to have the war end in any other way.
    If the Brits won then the US would be stunted as British and Native Americans took control of everything West of the Mississippi.
    If the Americans won (and there for humiliated the UK who had just defeated France) then the British would have turned the pressure up and fought the campaign for real. The US couldn't win against the UK with no allies in Europe and it would mean the end of the US.
     
  14. The Ubbergeek Insane internet demigod (TN)

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    I doubt the USA would be terminated.. The American Civil War proved that they have a defensible territory, and a second redo of this... well.

    Stuntered, beaten up, but destroyed, no...
     
  15. frlmerrin Banned

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    So the USA takes lower and upper Canada perhaps even a big chunk of New Brunswick. They are never going to take Nova Scotia, PEI or Newfoundland unless they control the sea and they don't. Similarly they are being blockaded by the Royal Navy and in OTL by 1814 the USN and the privateers were being trapped in port and the mechant marine was all blockaded, captured, reflagged or trading under license. In OTL the British just were not interested in the war by the time the Napoleonic war had finished. In this scenario they are plenty interested as they have lost most of BNA and instead of putting the fleet in to Ordinary as they did in OTL they can send them to the USA instead.

    The only way the USA can deal with the Royal Navy is to have an ally to take it on on their behalf. The only possible candidate for that in 1812 is France and after Trafalgar and the Nile they really are no longer up to the task.

    So in conclusion I suspect that a USA victory in the Canadas will ultimately make things worse for them in the war as a whole. It may be possible that short of not starting the war in the first place they got just about the best outcome possible in OTL. To win the USA has to defeat of neutralise the Royal Navy and frankly I have not got a clue how they would go about that task.
     
  16. Sucrose Member

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    The only way the US could somehow be destroyed as a result of the War of 1812 would be if the US lost and major groups of states spontaneously turned on each other in rage and created a four-way civil war from which eight new nations were formed, and never again united due to the hatreds borne of the After the War of 1812 War.

    But that would never happen because even if the US lost, we'd just paint it as a victory anyway and go on with life.
     
  17. frlmerrin Banned

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    I agree with the above. The destruction of the USA is not a reasonable outcome of any War of 1812 scenario. The USA can be humbled, lose some territory on the border with BNA, have its western expansion stalled or severely limited but it is not going to go away. It existed and it was not in anyone's interest to destroy it ... Install a puppet monarch though ??
     
  18. Dave Howery laughs at your pain

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    The only territory the USA could possibly gain in the war would be parts of Canada, and it's hard to see the Brits standing idly by and letting that happen. Not sure how else you have the USA 'decisively win' the war. As it was, they came out of it pretty well... all territory intact, a couple of victories to celebrate (ignoring that whole 'your capital city got burnt' thing) and no obstacles into moving west (the question on the status of natives having been dealt with)...
     
  19. kclcmdr Well-Known Member

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    The USA of 1812 needs a bigger and stronger Navy...

    Without that...
    the British Navy can easily dance around the American Coastal zone region and lay siege to the various city ports if they aren't defended properly...

    And land their Redcoats and try to burn more towns and cities like Washington DC....
     
  20. Wolfpaw Banned

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    Le Bump.....