A true Roman Alexander or what if Pompey had a more impressive eastern campaign

[calvin1417]

What if at the end of his otl eastern campaign Pompey decided to take war to Parthia and he breaks the Parthians for a generation while taking there empire west of the zargos for Rome. He also conqures the ptolomeic kingdom because Alexander also conqured eygpt. This adds an extra five years to his eastern campaign.

How much more rich and powerful did Pompey make himself? How rich and powerful did he make Rome? Can Caesar get stuff done in his consulship with Pompey in the east? How much does Crassus hate Pompey know? Can Pompey get land grants for his soldiers and his eastern settlement ratified by the senete alone with his extra power? What happens to the Parthians? How does history in general change?

 

[calvin1417]

Is anyone interested in this?

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

Write a TL about it, you'll see if someone is interested.

 

[calvin1417]

Write a TL about it, you'll see if someone is interested.

Well first I want the ideas hashed out first so I can understand the topic better. Also I have no confidence in my writhing so this might be a ways into the future

 

[calvin1417]

Bump

 

[SlyDessertFox]

You can only get better at writing by trying. Trust me, my first couple of timelines were...well, I won't even sugarcoat it, they were horrible. But I like to think my timelines now are pretty good. Practice is the best way to get better.

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

@calvin1417 You seem to have some enthusiasm for Pompeius Magnus. I think this enthusiasm can easily be transformed into a TL.

But you should do good research (we have some specialists of the late late republic here who will gladly criticize your TL) and know the plot, so you know where this is going.

 

[calvin1417]

You can only get better at writing by trying. Trust me, my first couple of timelines were...well, I won't even sugarcoat it, they were horrible. But I like to think my timelines now are pretty good. Practice is the best way to get better.

@calvin1417 You seem to have some enthusiasm for Pompeius Magnus. I think this enthusiasm can easily be transformed into a TL.

But you should do good research (we have some specialists of the late late republic here who will gladly criticize your TL) and know the plot, so you know where this is going.

Yeah but first I want to pick the brains of this site first to see if this is plausible or not.

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

Yeah but first I want to pick the brains of this site first to see if this is plausible or not.

I never understood why a second Alexander is impossible ... And Pompey was a military genius, so nothing speaks against it. However, a Roman campaign in Persia has massive political consequences, only comparable to Caesar's conqest in Gaul. If Pompey becomes governor of Mesopotamia, Syria, Aegyptus etc., he would be de facto king of the eastern Mediterranean. And now, how does the Senate react? In OTL, Pompey respected the Senate and the res publica, but how will this develop with Pompey as the dominator of the orient?

In this situation, everything is different, especially because Pompey is no idiot. He will soon realize that he can't administrate the eastern turmoil from Rome and has to move his capital, for example to Antioch or Seleuceia. In fact, this might dramatically accelerate the downfall of the republic and create an Eastern Roman Empire/Byzantium much earlier.

 

[Yeti]

I guess my question would be: why didn't your ATL happen in the OTL? i.e. what brought Pompey back to Rome in actuality?

It strikes me that all of Pompey's eastern campaigns were centered around great logistics on the Mediterranean. Maybe the reason he didn't go after the Parthians is that they were overland hundreds of land-miles away. That made them a much tougher nut to crack. The Byzantines sparred with a similar power (or maybe it was the Parthians?) for centuries over the same terrain. Whenever they left their awesome seaborne power behind they struggled to do anything of note. On a more Machiavellian level, Pompey may have wanted to come home to secure the power he had gained into a more permanent position at home? I don't know why he came back when he did, but I'm sure he had good reason...maybe he was tired of campaigning

For a POD you'd need something major to shift Roman Republican politics from being his major concern.

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

For a POD you'd need something major to shift Roman Republican politics from being his major concern.

Or a major shift in the Parthian Empire, for example a civil war, so that Pompeius has a good opportunity to intervene there.

Something a bit implausible, but all the more dramatic would be a an anti-Roman rising in the Egyptian court of Alexandria. A disinherited member of the Ptolemies achieves a coup supported by Parthia and, after becoming pharao, ends the Roman protectorate and attacks the Roman armies in Syria. Pompey reacts by first conquering Egypt, before he moves to the north and attacks Parthia to take vengeance for the Egyptian trouble.

Then, taking up my first thought, Pompey funds himself a coup, this time in Parthia, making his retaliation campaign much easier. Remember the east is still very helenized at this time, even India is partially dominated by Greek kingdoms. So Pompey promotes himself as protector of the Greeks in the orient, sets up Greek puppet kings in Mesoptamia, Persia etc. The Greeks in turn will rise against their Parthian overlords and welcome the Romans troops.

The problem is that Pompey's empire and army will not stay Roman for a long time; if it stays occidental at all, it will be predominantly hellenized. The Greeks will for the majority not serve under Roman officers, so Pompey will have to build up a Greek army army command, with some Roman military advisers for logistics, infrastructure and discipline.

 

[SlyDessertFox]

Somehow keep everything west of the cargos balkanized until pompeys arrival. Actually...if you can have tigranessomehow seize control of Mesopotamia and then still lose to lucullus....you set the pieces in place for pompey to have a reason to intervene there. That's about as far east as you'll get him though.

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

That's about as far east as you'll get him though.

I wonder whether you could explain to us why Pompey can't get as far as Alexander III of Macedon did?

 

[SlyDessertFox]

I wonder whether you could explain to us why Pompey can't get as far as Alexander III of Macedon did?

A.) forces at his disposal
B.) unlike alexander, pompey isn't an absolute autocrat. He has clearly defined limitations on how far he can stretch his imperium, and of course a timek limit on his imperium
C.) there's really no reason to. There's np economic incentive. There's no geopolitical incentive. He didn't have an Alexander the great complex. The risk involved for very little extra political fame and auctoritas
D.) he has to have a reason to. Even Caesar had to at least manufacture a reason, and even then he only ventured outside Gaul when it was to deal with a clear military threat to Gaul. He was able to extend his imperium to all of Gaul because "transalpine" Gaul is conveniently vague.
E.) pompey isn't half the general Alexander was. He's also more of a Philip ii, than an Alexander in that He recognizes conquering for the sake of conquering is pointless. If Alexander had any sense, he would have stopped at the zagros

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

A.) forces at his disposal

He has the money to levy everything he wants.

B.) unlike alexander, pompey isn't an absolute autocrat. He has clearly defined limitations on how far he can stretch his imperium, and of course a timek limit on his imperium

No, he isn't but he is A) very popular with the Roman plebs B) the best Roman general available. If Pompey wants to get further east, he asks one of his supporters in Rome (a consul, praetor or tribune) to initiate a law extending his imperium.

C.) there's really no reason to. There's np economic incentive. There's no geopolitical incentive. He didn't have an Alexander the great complex. The risk involved for very little extra political fame and auctoritas

Well, that's right. Calvin will need a good explanation why Pompey wants to get east. Maybe something very personal, like a prophecy or a vision.

D.) he has to have a reason to. Even Caesar had to at least manufacture a reason, and even then he only ventured outside Gaul when it was to deal with a clear military threat to Gaul. He was able to extend his imperium to all of Gaul because "transalpine" Gaul is conveniently vague.

Hm, I proposed how a "reason" could emerge (Parthian coup in Egypt).

If Alexander had any sense, he would have stopped at the zagros

But Persia! And India! And Bactria! Think of the riches! And the gold! The gold! Bulks of gold awaiting for the venturing! Gooooold!

 

[SlyDessertFox]

He has the money to levy everything he wants.

Pompey isn't Crassus for starters. Second, he inherited Lucullus's army no? He can only recruit what's available to him. And that isn't much.

No, he isn't but he is A) very popular with the Roman plebs B) the best Roman general available. If Pompey wants to get further east, he asks one of his supporters in Rome (a consul, praetor or tribune) to initiate a law extending his imperium.

It's not that simple. Pompey's rise to the top of the poltical tower came after his return from the east. And that brings me to my most important point: Pompey, and all other Romans (well, most) didn't take commands based on "what's the most I can conquer". It was "what can give me the most wealth, fame, and political power, for the least risk". Everyone was eager to get the command against Mithradates because it was seen as easy loot. The opposite was true for the war against the Cimbri and Teutones, and against Jugurtha, because they were quickly seen as far more difficult. Pompey took the path of least resistance, and it paid off fabulously: He overtook Lucullus's army after Lucullus had smashed Tigranes. And then he proceeded to mop up what was left and re-organize the east. There was almost no risk involved, for immense reward. Taking on an unknown and far off entity such as the Parthian Empire offers little extra, and the risk is increased exponentially. Pompey would be foolish to attempt it. Crassus attempted it because it was the only option for military glory available to him. Caesar pushed the limits in Gaul because it was the best opportunity for military glory and political auctoritas available to him. Pompey can already achieve all the military glory and auctoritas he would ever need (as long as he was a good enough politician to maintain it, which he wasn't) just by doing what he did IOTL.

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

It's not that simple.

That's why I'm glad not to do a Pompey TL

 

[calvin1417]

I never understood why a second Alexander is impossible ... And Pompey was a military genius, so nothing speaks against it. However, a Roman campaign in Persia has massive political consequences, only comparable to Caesar's conqest in Gaul. If Pompey becomes governor of Mesopotamia, Syria, Aegyptus etc., he would be de facto king of the eastern Mediterranean. And now, how does the Senate react? In OTL, Pompey respected the Senate and the res publica, but how will this develop with Pompey as the dominator of the orient?

In this situation, everything is different, especially because Pompey is no idiot. He will soon realize that he can't administrate the eastern turmoil from Rome and has to move his capital, for example to Antioch or Seleuceia. In fact, this might dramatically accelerate the downfall of the republic and create an Eastern Roman Empire/Byzantium much earlier.

I guess my question would be: why didn't your ATL happen in the OTL? i.e. what brought Pompey back to Rome in actuality?

It strikes me that all of Pompey's eastern campaigns were centered around great logistics on the Mediterranean. Maybe the reason he didn't go after the Parthians is that they were overland hundreds of land-miles away. That made them a much tougher nut to crack. The Byzantines sparred with a similar power (or maybe it was the Parthians?) for centuries over the same terrain. Whenever they left their awesome seaborne power behind they struggled to do anything of note. On a more Machiavellian level, Pompey may have wanted to come home to secure the power he had gained into a more permanent position at home? I don't know why he came back when he did, but I'm sure he had good reason...maybe he was tired of campaigning

For a POD you'd need something major to shift Roman Republican politics from being his major concern.

Or a major shift in the Parthian Empire, for example a civil war, so that Pompeius has a good opportunity to intervene there.

Something a bit implausible, but all the more dramatic would be a an anti-Roman rising in the Egyptian court of Alexandria. A disinherited member of the Ptolemies achieves a coup supported by Parthia and, after becoming pharao, ends the Roman protectorate and attacks the Roman armies in Syria. Pompey reacts by first conquering Egypt, before he moves to the north and attacks Parthia to take vengeance for the Egyptian trouble.

Then, taking up my first thought, Pompey funds himself a coup, this time in Parthia, making his retaliation campaign much easier. Remember the east is still very helenized at this time, even India is partially dominated by Greek kingdoms. So Pompey promotes himself as protector of the Greeks in the orient, sets up Greek puppet kings in Mesoptamia, Persia etc. The Greeks in turn will rise against their Parthian overlords and welcome the Romans troops.

The problem is that Pompey's empire and army will not stay Roman for a long time; if it stays occidental at all, it will be predominantly hellenized. The Greeks will for the majority not serve under Roman officers, so Pompey will have to build up a Greek army army command, with some Roman military advisers for logistics, infrastructure and discipline.

Somehow keep everything west of the cargos balkanized until pompeys arrival. Actually...if you can have tigranessomehow seize control of Mesopotamia and then still lose to lucullus....you set the pieces in place for pompey to have a reason to intervene there. That's about as far east as you'll get him though.

A.) forces at his disposal
B.) unlike alexander, pompey isn't an absolute autocrat. He has clearly defined limitations on how far he can stretch his imperium, and of course a timek limit on his imperium
C.) there's really no reason to. There's np economic incentive. There's no geopolitical incentive. He didn't have an Alexander the great complex. The risk involved for very little extra political fame and auctoritas
D.) he has to have a reason to. Even Caesar had to at least manufacture a reason, and even then he only ventured outside Gaul when it was to deal with a clear military threat to Gaul. He was able to extend his imperium to all of Gaul because "transalpine" Gaul is conveniently vague.
E.) pompey isn't half the general Alexander was. He's also more of a Philip ii, than an Alexander in that He recognizes conquering for the sake of conquering is pointless. If Alexander had any sense, he would have stopped at the zagros

Pompey isn't Crassus for starters. Second, he inherited Lucullus's army no? He can only recruit what's available to him. And that isn't much.


It's not that simple. Pompey's rise to the top of the poltical tower came after his return from the east. And that brings me to my most important point: Pompey, and all other Romans (well, most) didn't take commands based on "what's the most I can conquer". It was "what can give me the most wealth, fame, and political power, for the least risk". Everyone was eager to get the command against Mithradates because it was seen as easy loot. The opposite was true for the war against the Cimbri and Teutones, and against Jugurtha, because they were quickly seen as far more difficult. Pompey took the path of least resistance, and it paid off fabulously: He overtook Lucullus's army after Lucullus had smashed Tigranes. And then he proceeded to mop up what was left and re-organize the east. There was almost no risk involved, for immense reward. Taking on an unknown and far off entity such as the Parthian Empire offers little extra, and the risk is increased exponentially. Pompey would be foolish to attempt it. Crassus attempted it because it was the only option for military glory available to him. Caesar pushed the limits in Gaul because it was the best opportunity for military glory and political auctoritas available to him. Pompey can already achieve all the military glory and auctoritas he would ever need (as long as he was a good enough politician to maintain it, which he wasn't) just by doing what he did IOTL.

This is the talk I wanted keep it up. Few points though

The pod has Pompey stopping at the zargos because any further is too unwieldy

He only has the forces at his disposal

Wouldn't Pompey be super rich after conquering mespotamia and eygpt? Can't he use that money to raise more men?

 

[SlyDessertFox]

Okay, so if Pompey is venturing into Mesopotamia, the Parthian Empire doesn't have control there. That's, interestingly enough, not actually too terribly difficult. For this, the POD is around the death of Mithradates II of Parthia in 88 BCE. Between then and 83 BCE, when he was made King of Syria, Strabo says:

When he acquired power, he recovered these (seventy) valleys, and devastated the country of the Parthians, the territory about Ninus (Nineveh), and that about Arbela. He subjected to his authority the Atropatenians, and the Goryaeans (on the Upper Tigris); by force of arms he obtained possession also of the rest of Mesopotamia and, after crossing the Euphrates, of Syria and Phoenicea.

Here is a map of the Armenian Empire at its height:

Now, Tigranes was strong enough to assume the title of King of Kings. This was not even used by the Parthians at this time. So presumably, given enough of a reason, he could seize Babylonia in some form, probably as a vassal kingdom of sorts, or if he could somehow arrange for a similar crowning of himself as had happened in Syria. Given how easily Lucullus was able to sweep aside his much larger armies IOTL, this shouldn't have that much of an effect on when Lucullus strikes in 69, and how that goes. The difference is, Pompey has a lot more to clean up than IOTL when he reconciles with Tigranes. He almost certainly will still encourage Phraates III to invade Armenian lands while he deals with Mithradates, but that doesn't mean Phraates can't meet an unfortunate end that forces the Parthians to turn inward in succession squabbles...That should give enough time so when Pompey deals with Tigranes and Syria, he also has to deal with Mesopotamia.

 

[calvin1417]

Okay, so if Pompey is venturing into Mesopotamia, the Parthian Empire doesn't have control there. That's, interestingly enough, not actually too terribly difficult. For this, the POD is around the death of Mithradates II of Parthia in 88 BCE. Between then and 83 BCE, when he was made King of Syria, Strabo says:



Here is a map of the Armenian Empire at its height:

Now, Tigranes was strong enough to assume the title of King of Kings. This was not even used by the Parthians at this time. So presumably, given enough of a reason, he could seize Babylonia in some form, probably as a vassal kingdom of sorts, or if he could somehow arrange for a similar crowning of himself as had happened in Syria. Given how easily Lucullus was able to sweep aside his much larger armies IOTL, this shouldn't have that much of an effect on when Lucullus strikes in 69, and how that goes. The difference is, Pompey has a lot more to clean up than IOTL when he reconciles with Tigranes. He almost certainly will still encourage Phraates III to invade Armenian lands while he deals with Mithradates, but that doesn't mean Phraates can't meet an unfortunate end that forces the Parthians to turn inward in succession squabbles...That should give enough time so when Pompey deals with Tigranes and Syria, he also has to deal with Mesopotamia.

So no Parthians in mespotamia makes Pompeys conquest in that area possible? Well if Pompey can conqure everything west of the zargos I'll allow it. And what about eygpt?