A Roman Empire without Britannia?

Provincia Britannia, despite being my favourite province of the (Western) Roman Empire, had 4 legions stationed in just that one province. What could the Romans have done besides take it over? Set up a client king and provide some support to them, but put those legions to good use elsewhere? Maybe conquering the Hungarian Plain could be Claudius' testing ground? Or he leads the Romans on a second expedition to conquer parts of Germania Magna? Also: was Britannia a net gain or net loss for Rome?
 
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In a word, yes.

Britain provided a good number of resources. But four legions is an insane amount. Africa had only one! Not only was this a tremendous waste of resources (it would have been much more efficient to occasionally lead punitive raids to ensure compliant kings on the south-east coast), it created a bigger problem: rebellion. The governor of Britain had a serious military force and practical isolation from watchful eyes. Little to stop them rebelling if they felt like it.
 
In a word, yes.

Britain provided a good number of resources. But four legions is an insane amount. Africa had only one! Not only was this a tremendous waste of resources (it would have been much more efficient to occasionally lead punitive raids to ensure compliant kings on the south-east coast), it created a bigger problem: rebellion. The governor of Britain had a serious military force and practical isolation from watchful eyes. Little to stop them rebelling if they felt like it.
Especially after Constantine, who was declared Emperor in Eboracum. Britain became even more rebellious after that.
 
What if they finished the job in Britain by conquering Scotland/Caledonia and Ireland/Hibernia? I would presume that controlling the entire region and thus without threats from the remaining tribes would enable them to cut down on military units, since they would only have to defend against sea-borne enemies from distant Germany, and thus while horridly expensive in the short-term (the Roman model relied on co-opting local elites, which wasn't possible in the extremely poor lands of Scotland and Ireland - thus easy to conquer, but expensive to hold, similar to Germany) it would pay off in the long term. It would also reduce the number of rebellions too, since there would be fewer troops there, and hence both less capacity to do damage, and also more local economic booty to go around relatively and therefor less dissatisfaction about the British garrison's lowly rank in the imperial order scheme.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
Britannia was ultimately a net loss for Rome. Its sources of income should not be ignored, but the costs clearly outweighed the benefits. Now, if Rome had pushed through all the way, annexing Caledonia and Hibernia as well, that would improve matters. They, too, could provide income. No enemies across the border anymore, no silly walls to be built, and no Hibernian piracy to become a menace. Do note however, that it will be cost- and manpower-intensive for quite some time. Ultimately, when the isles are fully integrated and pacified, they will land you a nice profit. But that's for those who can handle the long haul. In the meantime, you'll have to dedicate resource that you can then not allocate elsewhere. Is that worth it? Perhaps. It would be better than OTL.

As I have repeatedly noted elsewhere, however, I personally think Rome should have refrained from taking Britannia altogether. If that's not on the table, I'd have very much liked to see Hadrian abandoning Britannia - instead of building that damned wall - and allocating the freed-up forces to keep Mesopotamia, instead. Because I don't think Rome at that time could keep both at once (resources were not infinite), and Mesopotamia was simply worth more. Much, much more. (And also, keeping it from the Persians would weaken them forever. If Susiana and Media can be turned into vassal states, too, so much the better.)
 
But Britannia is much less exposed, relying merely on sea defenses and forts along the shore.
Yes, but they also had to manage raids from Hibernia and the Picts. 3-4 legions is a costly upkeep for a region that appeared to be more trouble than it was worth. By comparison, Rome had 5 legions guarding the Rhine, and 1 legion in Africa. Those 3-4 legions would be much better served dispersed across the frontiers, while all that would be needed to guard the Gallic coast is the fleet at Gesoriacum. Hell, they'd be much better served as a moderate central field army (though Rome probably wouldn't go that route at this point in their history).
 

Faeelin

Banned
Yes, but they also had to manage raids from Hibernia and the Picts. 3-4 legions is a costly upkeep for a region that appeared to be more trouble than it was worth. By comparison, Rome had 5 legions guarding the Rhine, and 1 legion in Africa. Those 3-4 legions would be much better served dispersed across the frontiers, while all that would be needed to guard the Gallic coast is the fleet at Gesoriacum. Hell, they'd be much better served as a moderate central field army (though Rome probably wouldn't go that route at this point in their history).

And what does Britain do, when the legions are gone? It becomes a centralizing Celtic kingdom, no? As such, you need to deploy those legions to the Gallic coasts...
 
And what does Britain do, when the legions are gone? It becomes a centralizing Celtic kingdom, no? As such, you need to deploy those legions to the Gallic coasts...
Why would it be any more likely to become a centralized kingdom than Germany was? Roman diplomacy would work in Britain much the way it worked in Germany, probably with the occasional punitive expedition occurring to enforce Roman interests. That's still far less costly than stationing 3-4 legions in Britain permanently, and still maintains most of the economic benefits via trade.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Why would it be any more likely to become a centralized kingdom than Germany was? Roman diplomacy would work in Britain much the way it worked in Germany, probably with the occasional punitive expedition occurring to enforce Roman interests. That's still far less costly than stationing 3-4 legions in Britain permanently, and still maintains most of the economic benefits via trade.

The tendency along the Roman borders was for the barbarians to centralize and develop state structures, and this was already farther along in 1st century England than Germania. Why would it stop?
 

Skallagrim

Banned
The POD specified by @TC9078 seems to be that Rome never conquers Britannia in the first place, so "when the legions leave" is not an issue. This also means substantially less (direct) contact with Rome, and thus less of an impetus to centralise and develop state structures as in OTL.

Even if the Romans were to abandon Britannia later, though, dealing with an occasionally troublesome Celtic kingdom across the sea still seems cheaper to me than permanently stationing Britannia with more troops than can reasonably be justified.
 
The tendency along the Roman borders was for the barbarians to centralize and develop state structures, and this was already farther along in 1st century England than Germania. Why would it stop?
Yes, centralizing into several larger confederations. That happened in Germania and will likely happen in Britain. As mentioned by Skallagrim though, this is still a much easier situation to deal with. Play each state off each other, distribute bribes, maintain trading relations (which would become as integral to the British economy as to the Romans), and intervene militarily when necessary. This is a far better situation than having to permanently station 3-4 legions there.
 
Later it was cut to three. Not quite so insane?


Yes, but the stuff could be traded for. After all Dacia is also a valuable province, but that was given up before Britannia.

Now you've got me wondering what would happen if the Romans abandoned Britain at around the same time as they abandoned Dacia...

And what does Britain do, when the legions are gone? It becomes a centralizing Celtic kingdom, no? As such, you need to deploy those legions to the Gallic coasts...

Aside from what Sly Dessert Fox said, the Romans could probably just bribe any king who manages to unite southern Britain, and it would still be cheaper than keeping four legions plus auxiliaries stationed there.
 
IIRC, part of the impetus for the conquest was that Britain was providing resources and a safe haven for rebels in Gaul. Not occupying Britain just moves the headache closer to home, making Gaul harder to hold on to and weakening control of the Rhine. You might save one legion, maybe two in the end, and lose all those resources.
 
IIRC, part of the impetus for the conquest was that Britain was providing resources and a safe haven for rebels in Gaul. Not occupying Britain just moves the headache closer to home, making Gaul harder to hold on to and weakening control of the Rhine. You might save one legion, maybe two in the end, and lose all those resources.
The impetus was the treaties and political situation in place since the time of Caesar began to break down. And of course Caligula and Claudius really wanted a military success to point to to bolster their reputation, and in Claudius's case, his legitimacy.
 
We are talking not just about 4 legions. Even worse was the biggest corps of auxilary units of the empire! In total this was a tremedous waste of money and manpower.

With just a Classis Gallica supported by some auxiliary units to watch the coast of Gallia, the romans could have controlled Britannia easily.
Do not believe in british pirates invading or even just influencing northern Gaul. You are just another victim of imperial propaganda!

Britannia was invaded, because Claudius needed a military succes badly. And Caligula already prepared it. And Claudius had not the balls to fight Germania again. Which was very possible like his generals Galba, Chaucicus and later Corbulo demonstrated clearly. But Claudius whistled them back. He prefered the "easy" way. Well, Britannia was not easy. Not really. Not longterm. Latest after Boudica it was clear, that it was just as costly and risky as Germania Magna.

The romans had to waste 50.000 soldiers for what? For a border as short as 117 km???
Compare these 50.000 soldiers and these 117km to the Danube border, the Rhine border, the Euphrat border or any other roman border. It is just a waste of money and people!
 
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