A policy capable of peacefully converting Muslims

[LordKalvan]

Zakah and jizya should not be compared: the former is a moral obligation to share a portion of one's wealth with the less fortunate ones, and should be more correctly compared to the tithe traditionally owed to the church in christian countries; jizya is "protection money", a tax applied by the state on non-moslems and fully compulsory as taxes (and protection money) are.

The jizya was a substantial revenue stream for the Ottomans, and it has been often argued that the relatively low conversion rate in the Balkans was due to the unwillingness of the central government to loose such revenues.

 

[Zireael]

Pretty much. However, Christianity generally views Apostasy as unfavorably as Islam does. Only in the past century or two has attitudes relaxed about it. And that didn't stop Christians from being absorbed into the Muslim faith in the Middle East and North Africa.

Christianity never penalized apostasy with death. Islam, at least historically, did.

 

[Space Oddity]

Christianity never penalized apostasy with death. Islam, at least historically, did.

Ummm... yes, it did. A lot of people executed for heresy would have to differ with you on that one.

 

[Flocculencio]

I wouldn't say that Islam has proven to be any more successful than other evangelical religions outside of its conquest area.
.

Well in much of South India, the Malay world and sub-saharan Africa, Islam wasn't spread through conquest

 

[Falecius]

Zakah and jizya should not be compared: the former is a moral obligation to share a portion of one's wealth with the less fortunate ones, and should be more correctly compared to the tithe traditionally owed to the church in christian countries; jizya is "protection money", a tax applied by the state on non-moslems and fully compulsory as taxes (and protection money) are.

The jizya was a substantial revenue stream for the Ottomans, and it has been often argued that the relatively low conversion rate in the Balkans was due to the unwillingness of the central government to loose such revenues.

In many Medieval Islamic polities, Zakah was basically collected as a tax, not just moral obligation. Those who refused to pay their share could be punished by force of law, and the amounts were established by public functionaries appointed for the purpose.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Ummm... yes, it did. A lot of people executed for heresy would have to differ with you on that one.

Apostacy and heresy are entirely different.

 

[Space Oddity]

Apostacy and heresy are entirely different.

From the heretics' point of view, naturally the two are quite different--they would argue have not fallen away from God, but indeed, are now better following His truth.

From the Church's point of view--no, they aren't. Heresy is a form of apostasy, as it constitutes a leaving of the faith.

 

[Mookie]

There is no effective way :/
The most effective one in history was the Spanish inquistition, yet even that wasnt effective, since they remained covertly muslim and rebelled latter. Probably the best one would be to attack the basic teachings of islam, since muslims believe Quran cant be wrong, if you find something false in it you could colapse the religion. Islam is a giant on glass legs

 

[Socrates]

From the heretics' point of view, naturally the two are quite different--they would argue have not fallen away from God, but indeed, are now better following His truth.

From the Church's point of view--no, they aren't. Heresy is a form of apostasy, as it constitutes a leaving of the faith.

Wasn't the crime of heresy preaching about it, rather than practicing it?

 

[Socrates]

Well in much of South India, the Malay world and sub-saharan Africa, Islam wasn't spread through conquest

Agreed. But that's not especially successful by evangelical standards.

 

[Malta]

A large issue with Zoroastrianism besides the other issues of tax and massacres was that Zoroastrianism during the Sassanids had become the State Church and had been weakened by Heraclius' destruction of a few of their central fire temples (and a period of decadence under Khosrau II). State and Church had become intimently tied together so when the state fell so did any chance of the Zoroastrians unity and ability to mount a long term, organized resistance. After the Arab conquest we see several notable Zoroastrian revolts where messianic figures were at the head and were not united with the more orthodox Zoroastrian leaders.


Edit: Though a I note in my No Islam TL the Church of the East had already been splitting between Aramaic speakers in Mesopotamia and Phalavi Speakers in Rew Ardashir and India.

 

[Elfwine]

There is no effective way :/
The most effective one in history was the Spanish inquistition, yet even that wasnt effective, since they remained covertly muslim and rebelled latter. Probably the best one would be to attack the basic teachings of islam, since muslims believe Quran cant be wrong, if you find something false in it you could colapse the religion. Islam is a giant on glass legs

No more so than any other religion in regards to belief on the validity of the Quran or being able to collapse the religion or being "a giant on glass legs".

It's probably worth pointing out that the Byzantines recovered Crete after it being in Muslim hands long enough to be unlikely it was still mostly Christian, and yet we never think of it as Muslim.

I dunno if that was peaceful - but it worked.

 

[Mookie]

No more so than any other religion in regards to belief on the validity of the Quran or being able to collapse the religion or being "a giant on glass legs".

It's probably worth pointing out that the Byzantines recovered Crete after it being in Muslim hands long enough to be unlikely it was still mostly Christian, and yet we never think of it as Muslim.

I dunno if that was peaceful - but it worked.

The population was exchanged muslims were sent to egypt or turkey, those who didnt want to go had to convert.

 

[Elfwine]

The population was exchanged muslims were sent to egypt or turkey, those who didnt want to go had to convert.

Out of curiosity, what's your source for that?

Edit: I was referring to the reconquest by the Byzantines in 963, not post-Ottoman events. So that leaves that as a different sort of situation.

 

[Mookie]

Out of curiosity, what's your source for that?

Joseph von Hammer, History of the Turkish/Ottoman empire, book three


Oh I see, I thought the later part

 

[ingemann]

Christianity never penalized apostasy with death. Islam, at least historically, did.

Well yes it did, in fact for most of its history conversion away from Christianity (or to another Christian sect) in a Christian principality ended up with the person executed.

 

[M. Adolphe Thiers]

Wasn't the crime of heresy preaching about it, rather than practicing it?

No. However it was a worse offense to preach heresy than to have practiced it. The best case scenario was to be a confessed heretic in penance. The worst was to deny that you were the origin of a heresy and not repent.

 

[Flocculencio]

Agreed. But that's not especially successful by evangelical standards.

Millions of people across half of two continents isn't especially successful? I'm not sure you're aware on the numbers involved.

The population of South America (largely converted to Christianity by Iberians) is 387 million. The population of Indonesia alone (largely converted to Islam by South Indians) is 287 million

 

[Flocculencio]

Probably the best one would be to attack the basic teachings of islam, since muslims believe Quran cant be wrong, if you find something false in it you could colapse the religion. Islam is a giant on glass legs

What absolute nonsense. People are always willing and able to rationalise explanations for these sort if things.

 

[LordKalvan]

In many Medieval Islamic polities, Zakah was basically collected as a tax, not just moral obligation. Those who refused to pay their share could be punished by force of law, and the amounts were established by public functionaries appointed for the purpose.

IIRC, the Zakah was collected by the Caliphate until the death of Ali. After it, due also to the refusal of Ali's supporters to recognise the legitimacy of the caliphate, the state was no more involved in its collection (nor in the assessment of the amounts to be collected). It is quite possible that Moslem states independent of the caliphate collected it directly until medieval times, but the Caliphs never did.

Zakah is one of the 5 Pillars, so obviously cheating on it would be a serious sin for a moslem (same as it would have been for a Christian to cheat on tithes), but it was and is not a tax and was applied on the "net" value of one's wealth.

The jizya was a head tax, its amount decreed and collected by the state: IMHO there is an enormous difference between the two, and it's quite disingenous to try and compare them.