16th Century Spanish fleet stranded on the Hawaiian Islands

[Angel Blaise]

What if in the 16th (or maybe 17th) century Spanish ships, on their way between New Spain and the Philippines, were blown off course and landed on the Hawaiian islands? Let's say the people on board end up stranded on the islands, completely cut off from New Spain. How might they adapt to life on the islands? How would they interact with the native Hawaiians?

Being cut off from New Spain, their dialect of Spanish would diverge from the rest of the Spanish speaking world, much as Judaeo-Spanish did OTL. I'm thinking they would start with the Old Spanish sibilant system, or as close to it as remained by this period.

How might the Hawaiian language affect this form of Spanish? Could consonant clusters be reduced? Maybe ct > t, x /ks/ > s, word final d elided (e.g. fraternidad > fraternidá)? What other changes could be expected? If a creole forms between the languages, how might it look?

Separate geological PoD version here.

 

[Revachah]

Most would be killed for being harbringers of disease, others enslaved and/or used to transmit technologies for local powers to gain more prestige, some would think they could rape and pillage more distant settlements then make themselves a "chief"

 

[Revachah]

Oh and language wise it would basically be like Chamorro

 

[Arkenfolm]

How many Spaniards? If it's only a few of them, they might get incorporated into Hawaiian society. A fleet full of them might just be able to make their way back. But they'd probably be absorbed in the long run. Some might try and convert the Hawaiians to Catholicism, which might not end well for them.

Whatever tools can be salvaged will be highly useful, and I'd expect the Hawaiians (on whatever island they land on) to benefit most in terms of anything nautical related.

If they land on Niihau, they might actually be able to subdue the local population, but by doing so, might attract negative attention from rulers elsewhere in Hawaii. Niihau ruled by Spanish castaways would be a very interesting scenario. How plausible is it? How long-lasting could it be? Even if Hawaii is unified by a Kamehameha-type figure or Niihau is conquered by rulers from another island (maybe Kauai), the Niihau people would form a unique group--Hawaiians with heavy Spanish descent, all Catholic, possibly all speaking a Spanish creole. The main issue with Niihau is the island's vulnerability to drought and the need to rely on Kauai. They'd probably need a powerful protector on Kauai.

For a language, I'd expect it to look like a Spanish version of some of the Pacific English creoles (Pitkern, Norfuk). Not quite sure how that would be, though. And how long would it last? Would they just end up being Catholic Hawaiian-speakers in the end, possibly forming the nucleus of a Catholic community in Hawaii?

Most would be killed for being harbringers of disease, others enslaved and/or used to transmit technologies for local powers to gain more prestige, some would think they could rape and pillage more distant settlements then make themselves a "chief"

This is basically accurate. But would they necessarily have disease? The biggest thing would probably be any STD (namely syphilis) not already present in Hawaii. Since this would be in the middle of the Manila Galleon route, anyone diseased probably would've long since died or never been aboard in the first place.

 

[Revachah]

How many Spaniards? If it's only a few of them, they might get incorporated into Hawaiian society. A fleet full of them might just be able to make their way back. But they'd probably be absorbed in the long run. Some might try and convert the Hawaiians to Catholicism, which might not end well for them.

Whatever tools can be salvaged will be highly useful, and I'd expect the Hawaiians (on whatever island they land on) to benefit most in terms of anything nautical related.

If they land on Niihau, they might actually be able to subdue the local population, but by doing so, might attract negative attention from rulers elsewhere in Hawaii. Niihau ruled by Spanish castaways would be a very interesting scenario. How plausible is it? How long-lasting could it be? Even if Hawaii is unified by a Kamehameha-type figure or Niihau is conquered by rulers from another island (maybe Kauai), the Niihau people would form a unique group--Hawaiians with heavy Spanish descent, all Catholic, possibly all speaking a Spanish creole. The main issue with Niihau is the island's vulnerability to drought and the need to rely on Kauai. They'd probably need a powerful protector on Kauai.

For a language, I'd expect it to look like a Spanish version of some of the Pacific English creoles (Pitkern, Norfuk). Not quite sure how that would be, though. And how long would it last? Would they just end up being Catholic Hawaiian-speakers in the end, possibly forming the nucleus of a Catholic community in Hawaii?



This is basically accurate. But would they necessarily have disease? The biggest thing would probably be any STD (namely syphilis) not already present in Hawaii. Since this would be in the middle of the Manila Galleon route, anyone diseased probably would've long since died or never been aboard in the first place.

Swanson’s estimates show that the death rate among Native Hawaiians accelerated devastatingly fast after their first contact with Western foreigners. Captain Cook and his crew wrote in well-documented accounts about concerns that they had infected the population with venereal diseases (Cook said he unsuccessfully tried to prevent his men from mingling with the native women). Over the years, many other infectious diseases and illnesses such as measles, chicken pox, polio and tuberculosis killed thousands of Hawaiians.

By Swanson’s estimates, 1-in-17 Native Hawaiians had died within two years of Cook’s arrival. By 1800, the population had declined by 48% since Cook set foot on Hawaii. By 1820, it had declined 71%; by 1840, it declined 84%.

People can be passive carriers.

Also really just look into Chamarro, it has the answer you want

The most notable influence on Chamorro language and culture came from the Spanish. ... There was wholesale borrowing of Spanish words and phrases into Chamorro, and there was even some borrowing from the Spanish sound system. But this borrowing was linguistically superficial. The bones of the Chamorro language remained intact. ... In virtually all cases of borrowing, Spanish words were forced to conform to the Chamorro sound system. ... While Spanish may have left a lasting mark on Chamorro vocabulary, as it did on many Philippine and South American languages, it had virtually no effect on Chamorro grammar. ... Japanese influence on Chamorro was much greater than that of German, but much less than Spanish. Once again, the linguistic influence was restricted exclusively to vocabulary items, many of which refer to manufactured objects...

 

[Arkenfolm]

People can be passive carriers.

Fair enough. But with only one incidence of contact, we won't see the same depopulation of Hawaii as OTL and instead a more moderate plague throughout the islands. Assuming they can't make contact permanent.

I'd assume you're thinking they'd speak Hawaiian, but it would be evolve into something like Chamorro? Not sure. Kauai is the only place that could happen, in that the population is small enough to potentially end up being ruled by Spaniards or those under heavy influence by Spaniards but also keep to its native language, where Niihau would be swamped by Spanish castaways. Niihau wouldn't speak Hawaiian in the scenario I postulate. Spaniards and their descendents elsewhere in the islands that form a unique caste (if only based on their Catholic faith) would probably just end up speaking Hawaiian in the long run rather than a mutated form of it.

Also, I suppose Lanai or Kahoolawe might be other good places aside from Niihau to place these castaways becoming rulers, but they're rather close to the main power centers of the Hawaiian islands.

 

[Revachah]

Fair enough. But with only one incidence of contact, we won't see the same depopulation of Hawaii as OTL and instead a more moderate plague throughout the islands. Assuming they can't make contact permanent.

I'd assume you're thinking they'd speak Hawaiian, but it would be evolve into something like Chamorro? Not sure. Kauai is the only place that could happen, in that the population is small enough to potentially end up being ruled by Spaniards or those under heavy influence by Spaniards but also keep to its native language, where Niihau would be swamped by Spanish castaways. Niihau wouldn't speak Hawaiian in the scenario I postulate. Spaniards and their descendents elsewhere in the islands that form a unique caste (if only based on their Catholic faith) would probably just end up speaking Hawaiian in the long run rather than a mutated form of it.

Also, I suppose Lanai or Kahoolawe might be other good places aside from Niihau to place these castaways becoming rulers, but they're rather close to the main power centers of the Hawaiian islands.

Assuming a level of prestige is attained it can be retained as a language of elites, a specific caste or the language of faith but yes a similar process can be had and retained regardless of the islands population given enough pressures.

With a scattering of Spaniards their descendants and others working with or for them could create a anti language.

Really the sky is the limit.

 

[Angel Blaise]

How many Spaniards? If it's only a few of them, they might get incorporated into Hawaiian society. A fleet full of them might just be able to make their way back. But they'd probably be absorbed in the long run.

As many as is needed to have a lasting effect. What is feasibly the largest group that could have ended up there while still being cut off from Spain? Would it be at all possible for a large population of civilians to have been in the fleet? That might be more interesting than if it were all sailors.

Some might try and convert the Hawaiians to Catholicism, which might not end well for them.

Might a syncretic religion akin to Haitian Vodou develop?

If they land on Niihau, they might actually be able to subdue the local population, but by doing so, might attract negative attention from rulers elsewhere in Hawaii. Niihau ruled by Spanish castaways would be a very interesting scenario. How plausible is it? How long-lasting could it be? Even if Hawaii is unified by a Kamehameha-type figure or Niihau is conquered by rulers from another island (maybe Kauai), the Niihau people would form a unique group--Hawaiians with heavy Spanish descent, all Catholic, possibly all speaking a Spanish creole. The main issue with Niihau is the island's vulnerability to drought and the need to rely on Kauai. They'd probably need a powerful protector on Kauai.

In such a scenario, how much influence might the Spanish receive from the Hawaiians? Being cut off from Spain and the Church for around 200 years, is it beyond the realm of possibility for them to absorb aspects of Hawaiian culture, such as mahu and aikane?

 

[Arkenfolm]

As many as is needed to have a lasting effect. What is feasibly the largest group that could have ended up there while still being cut off from Spain? Would it be at all possible for a large population of civilians to have been in the fleet? That might be more interesting than if it were all sailors.

Anyone going to Hawaii is going to be on the Manila Galleon route. Ethnically, it'll be majority Spaniards, with some Filipinos (including possibly Chinese) and Mexicans. Civilians, these would be people who could hitch a ride on the Manila Galleons en route to Acapulco or to Manila. I'm not quite sure of the mechanics. All I know, a large amount of the ships making the journey being lost at once would raise serious questions in Spain, since lots of silver is on these ships after all.

Might a syncretic religion akin to Haitian Vodou develop?

In such a scenario, how much influence might the Spanish receive from the Hawaiians? Being cut off from Spain and the Church for around 200 years, is it beyond the realm of possibility for them to absorb aspects of Hawaiian culture, such as mahu and aikane?

A lot of that is very abhorrent to the Catholic Spaniards. Not so much to the Hawaiian women who will be the mothers of the next generation, since this would be almost an entirely male group landing on the islands. Given a generation or two or three cut off from Spain and Christian civilisation, their descendents could easily accept practices like that as normal and not feel that it's at any odds with their Christian faith.

But Vodou--something vaguely Christian but very, very Hawaiian--would need to develop on an island converted by the Spaniards. Kauai is the best choice--low population, but high enough not to be subsumed by the Spanish compared to Niihau and other islands I mentioned.

Now how Christianity will develop for the Spaniards as a whole? Well, it'll probably not be particularly Orthodox but still recognisable by the Church when they rediscover them (a century or two down the road) as a folk Christianity. I think there would be priests or other clerics, and a (Latin) Bible or two among the castaways. These religious leaders, assuming they survive the first few months, will be huge for how Christianity is interpreted by both the Spaniards and any Hawaiian converts. Since as I mentioned, there could very well be Filipinos and Mexicans, interpretations of Catholicism found there could play a role in Hawaii too. Any Hawaiian converts will certainly diverge from standard Catholicism and end up practicing their traditional religion with some Catholic bearings.

 

[Revachah]

Haitian Vodou is a response to severe oppressive policies and punishments by an extremely powerful minority. It would not have accorded with a boat load of people, rather you would see at most a particular cult or more likely a Jesus and Virgin Mary added or combined into the narrative of a specific preexisting god to the pantheon of like a group of fish and fishing related deities.

 

[Angel Blaise]

A lot of that is very abhorrent to the Catholic Spaniards. Not so much to the Hawaiian women who will be the mothers of the next generation, since this would be almost an entirely male group landing on the islands. Given a generation or two or three cut off from Spain and Christian civilisation, their descendents could easily accept practices like that as normal and not feel that it's at any odds with their Christian faith.

Given this, might aspects of traditional Hawaiian culture such as the previously mentioned be better preserved in ATL than OTL? With the Hawaiians having their own indigenous form of Christianity, missionaries might have less reason to convert them and instill conservative colonial prejudices.

Whatever tools can be salvaged will be highly useful, and I'd expect the Hawaiians (on whatever island they land on) to benefit most in terms of anything nautical related.

Perhaps this early lead could help them avoid a takeover like that done by the US OTL. Instead, maybe they could remain independent, perhaps becoming a protectorate of Britain or the US? If so, could they still end up with a similar standard of living to OTL Hawaii?

This is basically accurate. But would they necessarily have disease? The biggest thing would probably be any STD (namely syphilis) not already present in Hawaii. Since this would be in the middle of the Manila Galleon route, anyone diseased probably would've long since died or never been aboard in the first place.

Would this mean they would be as susceptible or nearly as susceptible to disease when contact is reestablished in the 18th Century? If the Spaniards do bring disease when they arrive, perhaps the native Hawaiians could develop resistance to it so that more of them survive later contact with Western nations.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Given this, might aspects of traditional Hawaiian culture such as the previously mentioned be better preserved in ATL than OTL? With the Hawaiians having their own indigenous form of Christianity, missionaries might have less reason to convert them and instill conservative colonial prejudices.


Perhaps this early lead could help them avoid a takeover like that done by the US OTL. Instead, maybe they could remain independent, perhaps becoming a protectorate of Britain or the US? If so, could they still end up with a similar standard of living to OTL Hawaii?


Would this mean they would be as susceptible or nearly as susceptible to disease when contact is reestablished in the 18th Century? If the Spaniards do bring disease when they arrive, perhaps the native Hawaiians could develop resistance to it so that more of them survive later contact with Western nations.

No, missionaries will definitely have a reason to convert them. The Catholic Church proper will be very interested in these vaguely Catholic peoples and try and bring them more in line with church doctrine, which probably won't be very successful considering how vibrant folk Catholicism is globally. Protestant missionaries, on the other hand, definitely will want to do something. But I don't think they have the same success they did OTL, at least in the colonial era. Hawaii having a large evangelical population like in parts of Latin America is rather likely.

And a lot of this really depends which islands are converted and how extensive missionary efforts are. Any conversion of the islands (besides maybe Kauai) will probably be because of some popular revolt from converts, since there's no real incentive to convert (at least until the Europeans re-contact the islands). And only invidivual islands, so you've probably screwed over Hawaiian unification in the process.

Could just end up a British protectorate like Tonga instead, thus keeping the monarchy. I'm not sure how much the Americans would be able to wedge their way in (assuming their is a US, but if there is anything like the one we have OTL, it'll take an interest in Hawaii before long). But as I mentioned above with potential cracks and divisions in Hawaii forming, maybe they'd just split the islands if it ever became a significant issue. If France, Germany, Japan, or even Spain have interests in the region, they might also be involved in who gets what in Hawaii.

I think they'd probably be significantly poorer, given their somewhat isolated nature (good for shipping, though) and cash crop economy that doesn't lend itself to easy development.

 

[Angel Blaise]

Oh and language wise it would basically be like Chamorro

If a Hawaiian Chamorro were to form, what Spanish sounds could make it into the language? Maybe s /s/, or y /ʝ/ (perhaps simplified to /j/ as in English y)? How about ch /tʃ/? In Chamorro itself, ch becomes /ts/; might this language follow a similar pattern?

How would syllable structure be affected? Would coda nasals be borrowed in, or simplified? I assume coda r and s would be dropped. What about ct /kt/ clusters? I could see the coda c being dropped, or perhaps vocalizing into /i̯/, forming a diphthong?