Gas attacks in WWII?

[The Red]

I'm not saying it wouldn't shorten the war but it would make the British about a shade lighter than the Nazis in the eyes of the world if that. And utterly destroy Europe.

It wouldn't utterly destroy Europe, western Europe may end up looking more like east and you may even have a few more Communist regimes coming up from the ruins if the British are too wary of basically guaranteed German retaliation with everything they've got, leaving the Soviets and La Resistance to twist the knife that the British inserted. Things would be grim, and the Allies would certainly be a shade darker but Randall Flagg isn't popping up any time soon.

I've actually got a scenario which involves an isolationist USA leaving a cash strapped UK and barrel scraping USSR in a stalemate with a Third Reich that's just hangin' on in Eastern Poland. The liberation of the Syrets concentration camp, further RAF photo evidence of the Holocaust and a stalemated Bagration lead the British down the road to Vegetarian and the 'N' plan. Had it in my head for a good few years now, got some help from a mate who does bio-chem as well but I've never quite managed to get it all out in a way that I like.

 

[The Red]

From what I know of the number of troops stationed in Denmark, bloodbath is the right word but will be a far more egalitarian affair than you're making it out to be.

I'm now imaging Jørgen Haagen Schmith storming the Reichstag single-handedly, the dust spores fleeing at the touch of his presence.

 

[deathscompanion1]

It wouldn't utterly destroy Europe, western Europe may end up looking more like east and you may even have a few more Communist regimes coming up from the ruins if the British are too wary of basically guaranteed German retaliation with everything they've got, leaving the Soviets and La Resistance to twist the knife that the British inserted. Things would be grim, and the Allies would certainly be a shade darker but Randall Flagg isn't popping up any time soon.

I've actually got a scenario which involves an isolationist USA leaving a cash strapped UK and barrel scraping USSR in a stalemate with a Third Reich that's just hangin' on in Eastern Poland. The liberation of the Syrets concentration camp, further RAF photo evidence of the Holocaust and a stalemated Bagration lead the British down the road to Vegetarian and the 'N' plan. Had it in my head for a good few years now, got some help from a mate who does bio-chem as well but I've never quite managed to get it all out in a way that I like.

The one thing I disagree with in that scenario is the concentration camp.

The Allies unfortunately just did not care. They didn't put more than a token effort into stopping the holocaust until near the end and that saved thousands but the group charged with it was constantly short of resources.

They refused to believe its extent and when they couldn't anymore simply didn't care enough to put serious efforts into saving Jews. It might be a factor but I think it would be unrealistic for it to be the deciding factor in strategy. It simply wasn't that high on anyone's priorities.

 

[mcdo]

As was already mentioned, posion gas was used by Militarist Japan against China during WWII. However, they never used gas against the other Allies, not even when they had already resorted to suicide attacks. Personally, I feel the reason for this is clear: it was safe to use poison gas against China because China could not produce any posion gas on her own, and therefore there was no chance of retaliation. It was therefore useful (even if it did end up killing not a few Japanese troops as well). Poison gas was never used against the US, for example, because obviously the US could produce more and better gas, and so there was no advantage in using it, and some advantage in not using it and hoping the enemy would not as well.

Therefore, I think on the most basic level the only way to have other nations employ poison gas on the battlefield is for that nation to believe (rightly or wrongly) that they have a substanstial advantage in that field. Either they can produce more or better gasses (or both) to such an extent that releasing it on the battlefield is a net advantage.

 

[Saphroneth]

As was already mentioned, posion gas was used by Militarist Japan against China during WWII. However, they never used gas against the other Allies, not even when they had already resorted to suicide attacks. Personally, I feel the reason for this is clear: it was safe to use poison gas against China because China could not produce any posion gas on her own, and therefore there was no chance of retaliation. It was therefore useful (even if it did end up killing not a few Japanese troops as well). Poison gas was never used against the US, for example, because obviously the US could produce more and better gas, and so there was no advantage in using it, and some advantage in not using it and hoping the enemy would not as well.

Therefore, I think on the most basic level the only way to have other nations employ poison gas on the battlefield is for that nation to believe (rightly or wrongly) that they have a substanstial advantage in that field. Either they can produce more or better gasses (or both) to such an extent that releasing it on the battlefield is a net advantage.

The balance of terror principle, of course.
Interestingly, Germany DID have an advantage in weapons (nerve gases), but:
1) They believed, based on DDT research and the patterns of scientific papers it created, that the Allies had it too;
2) They were also significantly more vulnerable (horses) than the allies (Britain provided gas masks for the entire population, which I think is unique).

 

[The Red]

They refused to believe its extent and when they couldn't anymore simply didn't care enough to put serious efforts into saving Jews. It might be a factor but I think it would be unrealistic for it to be the deciding factor in strategy. It simply wasn't that high on anyone's priorities.

It's not the biggest factor, that's more the fact that the British and the Soviets are tiring with no end in sight however the fact that millions more will die if the British don't use germs helps to swing Attlee, maybe alongside German using Tabun to stall Bagration.

 

[alexcoppo]

The assumption here is that the soldiers would be fighting in full BC kit. The civilians, OTOH, and guys like the Volkssturm or firefighters, would not have that stuff.

In any case, if the saturation of Germany with anthrax is such that it is unsafe to drive through the countryside in full BC kit, then the Allies really really don't need to bother occupying the wretched place.

NBC suits are heavy, cumbersome and quickly become terribly hot. No eating or drinking (something dangerous by itself when couple with high activity and high temperature) while wearing them. In a few hours you have to get out of them, in one way or another.

 

[sloreck]

Actually MOPP 4 posture does have a method of drinking, although it is very cumbersome and given the volume of water you'll need in MOPP 4 even in moderate temperatures with moderate activity the risk of dehydration is high. The general idea is that troops would be in contaminated areas for the minimum time and that there would be "clean" shelters set up changing out suits, rest, eating & drinking. Not eating for a day or two is not fun but not a problem for someone who starts out adequately nourished, the limiting factor is hydration - moderate activity, moderate temperature in MOPP 4 requires at least 5L of water per 24 hours, more if hotter or more active.

For bioweapons, you actually only need a mask not a full suit. It is only for nerve agents that MOPP 4 (full suit, gloves, booties, mask, hood) is needed. For chlorine, phosgene, cyanogen chloride just mask; for mustard, lewisite you can get by with mask and uniform with long sleeves down etc - though nice to have suit.

 

[Seleucus]

It sounds like the British planned to spray mustard gas against German troops as soon as they landed on the beaches.

I'm suddenly wondering what WW2 would look like if Hitler had indeed tried Sealion. It would have been a colossal and idiotic failure of course, but it would likely have uncorked the chemical weapons genie, and opened the way to Nazi mass use of nerve gases (and Operation Vegetarian from Britain in retaliation.)

 

[Swedswar]

I thought the Soviets had a very good biological weapons program, and that keep the Germans from using there nerve gas.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_biological_weapons_program

They might be sub human communist Jews, but that does not matter when you have sores oozing blood.

 

[alexcoppo]

It sounds like the British planned to spray mustard gas against German troops as soon as they landed on the beaches.

I'm suddenly wondering what WW2 would look like if Hitler had indeed tried Sealion. It would have been a colossal and idiotic failure of course, but it would likely have uncorked the chemical weapons genie, and opened the way to Nazi mass use of nerve gases (and Operation Vegetarian from Britain in retaliation.)

After 100's of thousands of people die of Tabun poisoning in London, the dogs of war are completely unleashed.

England had an advanced chemical industry and in Porton Down they knew their business so it is a question of months before Tabun is reverse engineered and production is started. Once the basic concept of the organophosphates is understood, it is just question of time before Sarin and Soman are developed.

This evolution might butterfly away for some time nuclear weapons: with such agents a few hundreds of WWII bombers can easily drench a large city like Berlin or Tokyo with an amount of poison sufficient to kill hundreds of thousands of people in a single raid.

 

[Michele]

NBC suits are heavy, cumbersome and quickly become terribly hot. No eating or drinking (something dangerous by itself when couple with high activity and high temperature) while wearing them. In a few hours you have to get out of them, in one way or another.

All true. That's exactly what I meant: if you can't survive in any area in Germany unless you live in an airtight cocoon 24/7, then there is no need to occupy that empty space.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

After 100's of thousands of people die of Tabun poisoning in London, the dogs of war are completely unleashed.

What 100s of thousands? Thousands, maybe, but the Germans really didnt have a good way to get payload to London.

Mind you, given we're talking about a successful sealion.....

 

[Jukra]

Are we talking about mid 1944, as the mention of Normandy seems to imply?
If so, really don't think so.

- The Western Allies moved on trucks, which are impervious to BC weapons. The Germans and Soviets needed horses, which are even more vulnerable than humans and would be the actual primary target of anthrax. There go the supply (beyond railheads) and the artillery (beyond the few motorized artillery units).

Even if gas raids on cities are not approved, wouldn't tactical use of gas weapons in front line have been smart policy for the Western Allies? Perhaps not from D-day on, but later on timed with great breakthroughs from the beach head with large number of German units already directly deployed against Allied forces?

German capability to retaliate would have been minimal, even if with Tabun, and raids against British population centers could have been kept in checks with threats to retaliate with CW against German cities.

 

[davroslives]

Gas

I seem to recall a story (from somewhere) that when Goering was asked why the Nazis never used gas or chemicals against the Allies, especially on D-Day, he had a one word answer - "horses". The point was that, as the German forces used a huge number of horses to move stuff around, a counterattack using gas would have effectively immobilized them. Interesting point to consider for sure. Anyone else able to find is this is accurate or at least plausible?

 

[alexcoppo]

What 100s of thousands? Thousands, maybe, but the Germans really didnt have a good way to get payload to London.

Mind you, given we're talking about a successful sealion.....

Some reference about nerve agents.

Tabun LCt50 is 200 mg m/m3. A 250 kg bomb would hold 87 kg of Tabun so a single bomb (one of the 8 loaded on a single He 111) would be theoretically capable of contaminating a 435000 m3 volume assuming the above stated level (which is indicative for a quick effect, lower values would still kill you if you had been exposed for more than 1 minute); even with an actual performace just 10% of the theoretical (deliberately low estimate), we are dealing with a ~45000 m3 volume (e.g. 67*67*10 m).

A 100 He 111 raid (note that during the Blitz Luftwaffe systematically managed to send 300-400 bombers on a single target) would be good for 800 times that volume (e.g. 1900*1900*10 m). 1939 density was 34000 persons for sq. mile so using above data we 47000 people exposed, 23500 dead and probably as much poisoned. Tabun poisoning recovery is slow so if people got gassed again the next day or so, dose would cumulate.

The casualties of the above hypothesized raid would be higher than nearly every WWII bombing raid. A 400 bomber raid would be in the order of 100,000 death and 100,000 people poisoned; it is worth of compare this figure with:

Hamburg 1943: 43,000+
Tokyo 1945: 73,000+
Hiroshima 1945: 70,000+ (immediate)
Nagasaki 1945: 50,000+ (immediate)
​

With Sarin or Soman, multiply by 2, with VX by 4 (and kiss bye bye to accessing the area for several months).

 

[Amakan]

Some reference about nerve agents.

Tabun LCt50 is 200 mg m/m3. A 250 kg bomb would hold 87 kg of Tabun so a single bomb (one of the 8 loaded on a single He 111) would be theoretically capable of contaminating a 435000 m3 volume assuming the above stated level (which is indicative for a quick effect, lower values would still kill you if you had been exposed for more than 1 minute); even with an actual performace just 10% of the theoretical (deliberately low estimate), we are dealing with a ~45000 m3 volume (e.g. 67*67*10 m).

A 100 He 111 raid (note that during the Blitz Luftwaffe systematically managed to send 300-400 bombers on a single target) would be good for 800 times that volume (e.g. 1900*1900*10 m). 1939 density was 34000 persons for sq. mile so using above data we 47000 people exposed, 23500 dead and probably as much poisoned. Tabun poisoning recovery is slow so if people got gassed again the next day or so, dose would cumulate.

The casualties of the above hypothesized raid would be higher than nearly every WWII bombing raid. A 400 bomber raid would be in the order of 100,000 death and 100,000 people poisoned; it is worth of compare this figure with:

Hamburg 1943: 43,000+
Tokyo 1945: 73,000+
Hiroshima 1945: 70,000+ (immediate)
Nagasaki 1945: 50,000+ (immediate)
​

With Sarin or Soman, multiply by 2, with VX by 4 (and kiss bye bye to accessing the area for several months).

Worse yet, many would try to hide in cellars, the underground, etc.

If the Germans take the initiative (and use gas first) this might result in truly horrific casualties.

Adding to that, gas masks alone would be insufficient as Tabun (and the other nerve agents) penetrate the skin.

London would end up having to evacuated.

 

[sloreck]

Dropping bombs doesn't work. Nerve agents (and many others) and liquids and need to be aerosolized. A bomb filled with nerve gas that hits the ground will make a problem for those close by, but it won't spread much.

 

[Michele]

Some reference about nerve agents.

Tabun LCt50 is 200 mg m/m3. A 250 kg bomb would hold 87 kg of Tabun so a single bomb (one of the 8 loaded on a single He 111) would be theoretically capable of contaminating a 435000 m3 volume assuming the above stated level (which is indicative for a quick effect, lower values would still kill you if you had been exposed for more than 1 minute); even with an actual performace just 10% of the theoretical (deliberately low estimate), we are dealing with a ~45000 m3 volume (e.g. 67*67*10 m).

You would do well to look up when the German plants actually began producing tabun, and when the first weaponized tabun was available.

That said, if you are in the open at a distance of 67 metres from the point of impact of a perfectly conventional SC250 loaded with perfectly standard HE, what do you think will happen to you?

 

[alexcoppo]

German bombs contained a small explosive charge which burst and spread around content. About 1/3 of Tabun would remain in the (small crater) the rest would be spread around and (slowly) vaporize.

The lab poisoning of the researchers was cause by a single drop of Tabun on one table: imagine having to flee for hundreds of meters surrounded by vapours, spurts and pools of Tabun; exerting yourself (higher breating rate), without any kind of appropriate medical treatment afterwards. By the way, one of the first effects is miosis, which would make people unable to see well, imparing their navigational skills even in known places and making their escape bids less succesful.

Apropos those who stayed in the cellars, tube stations, etc.: Tabun is denser than air and would merrily pool in those places.