MarshalBraginsky
Banned
Question: is Germany the only nation that actually respects Japan's culture, or would the Germans set a precedent for respecting the cultures of Asia from a European colonial point of view?
Eisen, Blut und Fernhandel -German Unification in the 1860s
- Thread starter Beer
- Start date
Beer
Banned
Hi!
@MarshalBraginsky
In the earliest days yes, but after some time Japan´s development gave them a bit of respect from other European Powers. This is limited to Japan alone, because othere East Asian regions like China or Vietnam already were pushed around.
Full respect came only in the 20th century.
@MarshalBraginsky
In the earliest days yes, but after some time Japan´s development gave them a bit of respect from other European Powers. This is limited to Japan alone, because othere East Asian regions like China or Vietnam already were pushed around.
Full respect came only in the 20th century.
Hi Beer,
first of all this is a brilliant TL and I'm really enjoying it.
I found the last part very interesting as women's rights are of course very important. It seems the development ATL makes a lot of sense and hopefully leads to a more open and tolerant society as its always good to have several POV's to any argument. Hopefully they will also show the way for emancipation of other groups in society.
About Niall Ferguson´s History trilogy "The Third Way - Beginnings" I'd buy that in a heart beat as it seems very interesting and I hope we read more from this ATL book.
first of all this is a brilliant TL and I'm really enjoying it.
I found the last part very interesting as women's rights are of course very important. It seems the development ATL makes a lot of sense and hopefully leads to a more open and tolerant society as its always good to have several POV's to any argument. Hopefully they will also show the way for emancipation of other groups in society.
About Niall Ferguson´s History trilogy "The Third Way - Beginnings" I'd buy that in a heart beat as it seems very interesting and I hope we read more from this ATL book.
Beer
Banned
Hi!
(slight bow) A heartfelt thank you for your praise! When a story appeals to the readers, that is a big reward for us writers.
ATL "Niall Ferguson"
will bring further parts of his trilogy.
Many of the first-wave feminists in the OTL West were somewhat like this, though - they challenged legal inequalities such as the denial of the vote, occupational restrictions and restrictions on owning property, but they didn't challenge traditional gender roles or the customs of family life. People like Kollontai were the exception, not the rule - many of the American and British feminists of the 19th and early 20th centuries were firmly bourgeois, ladylike and (except for their views on women's political rights) conventional.
I'm guessing that the biggest difference in Frau Dohm's approach is tone - the British and American feminists could be quite confrontational, and she would focus more on working from within and showing what women could do before making demands. I'd guess that her feminist society would also expand into a support network for women - social and professional clubs, trade unions, business societies, etc. to provide mutual support and help women execute their 'propaganda of the deed.' That seems like a German thing to do.
In other words, the first-wave feminists' successes became more deeply rooted in German and Japanese society, meaning that while many traditional customs remained, the attitudes were different. The family traditions were a matter of mutual consent and were not seen as oppressive, and men (or at least most men) no longer saw women as inferior. As such the women didn't see a need to develop something like second-wave feminism to combat customary inequalities - legal equality was actually working, so they preferred to let it work naturally.
Didn't this only happen later, though? In TTL it might do so as early as the 1860s.
I'm actually surprised more countries haven't adopted German industrial planning in OTL (I'm looking at you, United States) given that this is one of the greatest successes of German society. Maybe if TTL's Germany and Japan show early success with that model, more countries might follow it - especially developing countries that want to make the transition to modern industrial economies the way Japan did.
Beer
Banned
Hi!
@Jonathan E.
In ATL the experiences in Japan with their different way of life brought it home that only concerted actions can make fast advances possible. Building up clubs, convincing at least some men to help, staying low on antagonism level (which helps getting support from openminded men) and making demands only with impeccable examples.
This is what brought about the break with some other ATL women´s movements. The very focused experiences of ADF and SFK were less useful to nations with few cultural contact points to Germany and Japan. And the fact that some customs remained unchanged.
I have seen the casual dismissal and backstabbing reporting about other economic systems in the UK/US far too often in discussion with British and Americans.
Second, the german economic basics are a package deal. You can copy and use some parts without problem, but some other parts like the way vocational training is done are based on thought models you have to take over too. Take a Mittelstands firm, the way it functions and is perceived in the population is a way of life in a certain point of view.
e.g. Japan and to a certain extend the Netherlands could develop their own variants, because they share some cultural contact points. Britain for example, despite the proximity to Germany compared to far away Japan, does not share some crucial PoVs. In todays Britain, a classic Mittelstands firm could not exist.
@Jonathan E.
Exactly. In OTL the german women rights activists were hampered by inactivity of a majority of other women and the splintering into sometimes being cross with each other factions. As one can imagine, a multitude of opinons combined with the "Machismo" of that Era, made it easier for the status quo.
In ATL the experiences in Japan with their different way of life brought it home that only concerted actions can make fast advances possible. Building up clubs, convincing at least some men to help, staying low on antagonism level (which helps getting support from openminded men) and making demands only with impeccable examples.
Not quite. It took time to change the attitudes, but since ATL the movement organised it more cleverly, it came about faster. And due to using national specifics and minor confrontations, it went deeper. With the new status quo acceptable for both men and women, some old customs remained completely unchallenged.
This is what brought about the break with some other ATL women´s movements. The very focused experiences of ADF and SFK were less useful to nations with few cultural contact points to Germany and Japan. And the fact that some customs remained unchanged.
There are two main reasons for that. One is a certain (please do not get it the wrong way) economic "blockheadness" in the anglo-saxon sphere, "Our system is the best ever. Everybody else is wrong."
I have seen the casual dismissal and backstabbing reporting about other economic systems in the UK/US far too often in discussion with British and Americans.
Second, the german economic basics are a package deal. You can copy and use some parts without problem, but some other parts like the way vocational training is done are based on thought models you have to take over too. Take a Mittelstands firm, the way it functions and is perceived in the population is a way of life in a certain point of view.
e.g. Japan and to a certain extend the Netherlands could develop their own variants, because they share some cultural contact points. Britain for example, despite the proximity to Germany compared to far away Japan, does not share some crucial PoVs. In todays Britain, a classic Mittelstands firm could not exist.
Deimos
Banned
That sounds weird. With gender equality achieved over time and not primarily in the aftermath of especially turbulent times and with a monarchical Germany not having a separation of state and church (I am extrapolating from OTL since Germany has not been founded yet.) I would have guessed the number of churchgoers to be higher by a wide margin.
The reason is that I have read that today only 3-5% of both Roman Catholics and (Lutheran and Reformed) Protestants even go to church in Germany every sunday. In contrast, even laicist France has 10% of all its Catholics as churchgoers every sunday.
We must consider that it took two wars (and in the case of East Germany 40 years of state-enforced atheism) and several other societal and political developments to come to this.
Seems like you will not spare Germany some chaos in the future which will probably make for an interesting read.
Beer
Banned
Hi!
I try to get out the next update in the evening, but I do not know for sure. This week is really full with other things.
@Deimos
I think you underestimate the influence of the Kulturkampf (which is unavoidable ATL as well, the situation leading to it is not much influenced by the PoD) and the pieces of eastern philosophy Germany will absorp over time.
Religious feasts are well-attended ATL, but the "standard" Sunday congregation is about double the actual OTL number, which is still relatively low. As said, this is the result of several, mostly independent, developments coming together.
Yes, Germany will have her share of difficult times too. I do not write a wank, even if it might seem so at the moment. The reason it might be seen like that is the simple fact, that Japan is a side-theatre in the 1860s. The only exception to OTL is that ATL for the Zollverein alone, Japan is NOT a side-theatre.
This is the main cause why the German States seem to have it easy. They have no really serious competition (unless the bakufu loyalists win with french help) in Japan at the moment and their complementary international actions are mostly in areas of equally small interest.
I try to get out the next update in the evening, but I do not know for sure. This week is really full with other things.
@Deimos
I think you underestimate the influence of the Kulturkampf (which is unavoidable ATL as well, the situation leading to it is not much influenced by the PoD) and the pieces of eastern philosophy Germany will absorp over time.
Religious feasts are well-attended ATL, but the "standard" Sunday congregation is about double the actual OTL number, which is still relatively low. As said, this is the result of several, mostly independent, developments coming together.
Yes, Germany will have her share of difficult times too. I do not write a wank, even if it might seem so at the moment. The reason it might be seen like that is the simple fact, that Japan is a side-theatre in the 1860s. The only exception to OTL is that ATL for the Zollverein alone, Japan is NOT a side-theatre.
This is the main cause why the German States seem to have it easy. They have no really serious competition (unless the bakufu loyalists win with french help) in Japan at the moment and their complementary international actions are mostly in areas of equally small interest.
Deimos
Banned
I should admit to my mistake that I discounted Japanese influence on the matter.
Indeed what you portrayed makes more sense now. Things like shrines inside of houses should appeal to the German pietists of the time and may serve to perpetuate that particular religious trend.
Also of note is that what you described in ATL Germany is not quite dissimilar to the modern Japanese concept of being (an) "ujiko".
Regarding the Kulturkampf, I am not so sure it can be counted upon to provide a great stepping stone for the changes you need but I will wait and see.
From now on, however, I will refrain from religion as a topic in this thread. It's just that disregarding its influence and possible evolution in most timelines is kind of my pet peeve - similar to how you noted at the beginning of this TL that economics and their different theories are all too often ignored when people construct an ATL.
Beer
Banned
Hi!
A new part is coming!
SMS "Preußischer Adler", Wilhelmshaven Quay, Winter 1862
Special envoy Wolfram Leibnitz was a seasoned traveller, but glad that he reached home before Christmas and home in general. He was not prone to seasickness, but the voyage back had been hard. One storm after the other. The ship showed the marks of the hair-raising journey. After a final goodbye to the Captain, Wolfram made his to a waiting train, carrying a sealed suitcase. In it were two very important treaties. Well, for most nations it would be not a very relevant thing, considering the goals for example the British had, but for Prussia and the german states working together with her, the documents were the entry into a new Era.
The Taler and Gulden reserves of the Zollverein states went down a bit, but now after months of negotiations the whole southern tip of South America and Easter Island belonged to them. (In OTL terms: Easter Island/Rapanui, with the exception of the northernmost Islands the whole Region XII in Chile, the argentinean provinces Tierra del Fuego and roughly the southern third of Santa Cruz, with the border a line from the Pacific Coast, the northern shore of Lago Viedma, along the Rio Shehuen a Chalia, then following the Rio Chico)
It was actually a bargain, both Chile and Argentina, while busy expanding their influence, knew it would be cheaper and bring more money to sell the far away regions to the "crazy Germans" than develop it themselves. Money the two nations could invest better in their core regions.
Wolfram Leibnitz, who was a simple official, had been sent on this diplomatic mission because no other envoy had been available, was not really well trained in diplomacy. He knew enough to make no obvious faux-pas, but his shrewdness helped him greatly to see what should be proposed to Santiago and Buenos Aires to make the transaction. After his successful stint in diplomacy, Leibnitz returned into "the second row". He might have become a footnote in History, but one of the first settlers remembered him. So one of today´s most important cities in South Patagonia bears his name: Leibnitzhafen (Rio Gallegos)
Ironically it took 3 years until an official name for the colony was made. There had been several in the run, finally it became Deutsch Patagonien (German Patagonia), later after the territory was really established it became known as Neusüdland (New Southland), informally shortened to "Neusüd".
Due to the trouble with the english Traders in Japan, some public authorities made the joking suggestion to name it Neuangelsachsen (New Anglo-Saxony), because the weather could be as annoying as on the British Isles.
The naming was just the top of an iceberg of things the german states suddenly had to think about together. Only 3 days later the Ezo-Treaty with Japan arrived back in Europe. While taking a longer return time, Ezo was the first colony, since the documents were signed earlier than the final signature in Buenos Aires for Patagonia.
In a certain way, this was a unique time in history, where nearly three dozen sovereign states possessed 2 colonies together. There was no way for some german states to stick their heads into the sand anymore, consultations for a unification of Germany had to be begun.
[FONT="]And these consultations would lead to an unintended crisis. [/FONT]
A new part is coming!
SMS "Preußischer Adler", Wilhelmshaven Quay, Winter 1862
Special envoy Wolfram Leibnitz was a seasoned traveller, but glad that he reached home before Christmas and home in general. He was not prone to seasickness, but the voyage back had been hard. One storm after the other. The ship showed the marks of the hair-raising journey. After a final goodbye to the Captain, Wolfram made his to a waiting train, carrying a sealed suitcase. In it were two very important treaties. Well, for most nations it would be not a very relevant thing, considering the goals for example the British had, but for Prussia and the german states working together with her, the documents were the entry into a new Era.
The Taler and Gulden reserves of the Zollverein states went down a bit, but now after months of negotiations the whole southern tip of South America and Easter Island belonged to them. (In OTL terms: Easter Island/Rapanui, with the exception of the northernmost Islands the whole Region XII in Chile, the argentinean provinces Tierra del Fuego and roughly the southern third of Santa Cruz, with the border a line from the Pacific Coast, the northern shore of Lago Viedma, along the Rio Shehuen a Chalia, then following the Rio Chico)
It was actually a bargain, both Chile and Argentina, while busy expanding their influence, knew it would be cheaper and bring more money to sell the far away regions to the "crazy Germans" than develop it themselves. Money the two nations could invest better in their core regions.
Wolfram Leibnitz, who was a simple official, had been sent on this diplomatic mission because no other envoy had been available, was not really well trained in diplomacy. He knew enough to make no obvious faux-pas, but his shrewdness helped him greatly to see what should be proposed to Santiago and Buenos Aires to make the transaction. After his successful stint in diplomacy, Leibnitz returned into "the second row". He might have become a footnote in History, but one of the first settlers remembered him. So one of today´s most important cities in South Patagonia bears his name: Leibnitzhafen (Rio Gallegos)
Ironically it took 3 years until an official name for the colony was made. There had been several in the run, finally it became Deutsch Patagonien (German Patagonia), later after the territory was really established it became known as Neusüdland (New Southland), informally shortened to "Neusüd".
Due to the trouble with the english Traders in Japan, some public authorities made the joking suggestion to name it Neuangelsachsen (New Anglo-Saxony), because the weather could be as annoying as on the British Isles.
The naming was just the top of an iceberg of things the german states suddenly had to think about together. Only 3 days later the Ezo-Treaty with Japan arrived back in Europe. While taking a longer return time, Ezo was the first colony, since the documents were signed earlier than the final signature in Buenos Aires for Patagonia.
In a certain way, this was a unique time in history, where nearly three dozen sovereign states possessed 2 colonies together. There was no way for some german states to stick their heads into the sand anymore, consultations for a unification of Germany had to be begun.
[FONT="]And these consultations would lead to an unintended crisis. [/FONT]
Hi Beer,
thats another marvellous update.
Now I'm really interested to see how the new land will be settled. Will we see the ancient Greek way of "daughter cities" done by the bigger states and smaller states like the Saxe-whatevers and the Hesses pooling their resources or will it be a central effort with cities settled by Germans from all different areas.
This could be very unique with people's different accents and traditions as well as religions.
So will it be lots of Neu-City names or more places like Leibnitzhafen with city quarters called Sachsenberg and Pommernbach?
Looking forward to more.
thats another marvellous update.
Now I'm really interested to see how the new land will be settled. Will we see the ancient Greek way of "daughter cities" done by the bigger states and smaller states like the Saxe-whatevers and the Hesses pooling their resources or will it be a central effort with cities settled by Germans from all different areas.
This could be very unique with people's different accents and traditions as well as religions.
So will it be lots of Neu-City names or more places like Leibnitzhafen with city quarters called Sachsenberg and Pommernbach?
Looking forward to more.
Beer
Banned
Hi!
@Helga
Thank you again for the praise!
While Patagonia will have some specific settlements made by a sovereign german state alone, most are made together simply because of the costs and coordination. The 2013 ATL Patagonia, North and South look and feel very different from OTL. There are a lot of "Neu-somethings" and around the same number odf specifically named settlements.
If wished for, I will make a short chapter about it.
@Helga
Thank you again for the praise!
While Patagonia will have some specific settlements made by a sovereign german state alone, most are made together simply because of the costs and coordination. The 2013 ATL Patagonia, North and South look and feel very different from OTL. There are a lot of "Neu-somethings" and around the same number odf specifically named settlements.
If wished for, I will make a short chapter about it.
Tyr Anazasi
Banned
This will hopefully prevent the genocide of the Fireland indians. Not that they won't have a tough time though.
The Chileans and Argentines certainly thought at the time that Patagonia was economically and politically marginal; just wait, though, until the gold is discovered and until the early settlers realize how much potential the region has for sheep-raising. This could become a very rich colony.
I wonder how this will affect German immigration to Chile proper, though. In OTL every town in Chile seems to have a Club Aleman; in TTL I guess the immigrants would be drawn to the German colony and others would take their place in Chile itself.
Beer
Banned
Hi!
@Tyr A.
Yes, the genocide of the Fireland Indians will not happen. The Germans have other things on their agenda, so in the early time, the Indians are left alone. But the way of life for the Indians will change. Around the turn of the century they will be integrated into the colony, willingly or not.
@Jonathan E.
Well, that was an understandable miscalculation by Chile and Argentina, based on the knowledge and aims of the time.
And the Germans were surprised too, when all the raw materials were found! South Patagonia was bought to get control over the Magellanstraße for the route to Japan. That there was potential for sheep-rasing was a "gimmick", but nobody really counted on finding such profitable ressources.
Not that it was not fittingly celebrated.
The new colony pulled some german immigrants away from going to Chile, but the number is a bit less than you might calculate. The climate of southern Patagonia is rather fresh year round, with a nearly everblowing wind. Of all german possessions in the ATL 1860s, Patagonia has the worst general climate. So while Patagonia has some natural beauty and the find of raw materials will pull some more settlers, there will be still a lot of potential immigrants, who will prefer other german colonies or other nations with a better climate.
@Tyr A.
Yes, the genocide of the Fireland Indians will not happen. The Germans have other things on their agenda, so in the early time, the Indians are left alone. But the way of life for the Indians will change. Around the turn of the century they will be integrated into the colony, willingly or not.
@Jonathan E.
Well, that was an understandable miscalculation by Chile and Argentina, based on the knowledge and aims of the time.
And the Germans were surprised too, when all the raw materials were found! South Patagonia was bought to get control over the Magellanstraße for the route to Japan. That there was potential for sheep-rasing was a "gimmick", but nobody really counted on finding such profitable ressources.
Not that it was not fittingly celebrated.
The new colony pulled some german immigrants away from going to Chile, but the number is a bit less than you might calculate. The climate of southern Patagonia is rather fresh year round, with a nearly everblowing wind. Of all german possessions in the ATL 1860s, Patagonia has the worst general climate. So while Patagonia has some natural beauty and the find of raw materials will pull some more settlers, there will be still a lot of potential immigrants, who will prefer other german colonies or other nations with a better climate.
Beer
Banned
Hi!
(slight bow) Thank you! As said before, if you dear readers have fun, this is a reward for us writers.
At the moment the US has the Civil War to fight, had a close encounter with a full international war due to the incompentence of a Commodore and Prussia is together with Russia the most pro-US European Great Power. Washington will under these circumstances hardly make much fuss. Esp. since the "non-transfer" addendum of 1870 is still not made at this time in history, so the german states did not even breach it.
In addition, the Monroe doctrine is legally seen in some parts not "astrein", not so great itself. It is a proclamation of a claim to power from the US and not a treaty as such.
Hi again,
this and your following answers make sense. I'm sure it'll be a fascinating place and I'd like to read more about it please. So one vote for a short chapter about it.
Thank you.
Now that I think about it, who was the legal owner of these colonies? Was the Zollverein an entity capable of making treaties and holding territory, or did the German states hold the colonies jointly with each being entitled to a share of the profits and responsible for a share of the development costs? Maybe Prussia would have a 70 percent interest, Schaumburg-Lippe would have 1/1000, etc. - but who would decide on the shares, and who would have authority to negotiate for all the states at once? Did the emissaries who signed the Patagonia and Ezo treaties have authority to do so on behalf of all the duchies and principalities? I could imagine some of the states complaining that they were dragged into the colonization venture without being consulted, and others fighting over what their share should be - is that the crisis you foreshadowed?
Beer
Banned
Hi!
@Helga
I will make the chapter about Patagonia, but I do not know if I can update anything today. I doubt it, but if I get the time for making an update, it would be in the late evening.
@Jonathan E.
The Zollverein status flummoxed many old State Law experts. What today would be called an International Organisation and legal entity/person, was a new development back then in the 19th century.
To make the gains legally full secure under the old situation, the Zollverein states are all holders jointly. While the interests on paper simply were itemized like the Zollverein baseline, most german state governments knew that it would not play a role in practice.
Deciding to gain the needed outposts and Ezo as physical payment for services rendered to Japan, made it clear to the german states wittingly or unwittingly, that talks about a unification would have to be begun. Even the most independent-minded monarch had to see this. Trade interests in conjunction with the general situation were now pushing towards a german unification.
The Zollverein conference gave the emissaries the needed backing of all member states, so that was unproblematic. The crisis has to do with which states were part of that adventure. Look at Luxemburg and it´s interesting legal status in Zollverein, German Confederation and being ogled by several powers...
This landlocked Grand duchy is now via her memberships a colonial power by proxy. And therefore an even tastier target.
@Helga
I will make the chapter about Patagonia, but I do not know if I can update anything today. I doubt it, but if I get the time for making an update, it would be in the late evening.
@Jonathan E.
The Zollverein status flummoxed many old State Law experts. What today would be called an International Organisation and legal entity/person, was a new development back then in the 19th century.
To make the gains legally full secure under the old situation, the Zollverein states are all holders jointly. While the interests on paper simply were itemized like the Zollverein baseline, most german state governments knew that it would not play a role in practice.
Deciding to gain the needed outposts and Ezo as physical payment for services rendered to Japan, made it clear to the german states wittingly or unwittingly, that talks about a unification would have to be begun. Even the most independent-minded monarch had to see this. Trade interests in conjunction with the general situation were now pushing towards a german unification.
The Zollverein conference gave the emissaries the needed backing of all member states, so that was unproblematic. The crisis has to do with which states were part of that adventure. Look at Luxemburg and it´s interesting legal status in Zollverein, German Confederation and being ogled by several powers...
This landlocked Grand duchy is now via her memberships a colonial power by proxy. And therefore an even tastier target.