Wings of the Free World: What If The Avro Arrow entered service?

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MiG25 vs CF105

Air superiority fighters evolve to fight one another, pure interceptors evolve only if their bomber preys require them to. The CF105 evolution would result from the evolution of Russian bombers, like the MiG25 evolved to be able to catch low flying targets, with the PD look down radar upgrade. If the Arrow evolved into a reconnaissance platform, then the MiG25 would have to be able to catch it, but since it was built to intercept the B70,that should be well within it's capabilities. The aircraft that would have to take the Arrow in consideration would be the Russian bombers, so a in service Arrow might help Sukhoi get funding for it's T4 bomber, or force the Russian to got for low altitude penetration or, as they did in OTL, big missiles for stand off attack.
Better interceptors lead to better bombers, not to better enemy interceptors.
 

sharlin

Banned
I know the MiG-25 was fast and wasn't actually as good an aircraft as the soviets or NATO intelligence would have belived but how bad was it? I assume it was basically a US racing car. Goes AMAZINGLY FAST, just don't ask it to turn. Ever.
 
Not bad at all

I know the MiG-25 was fast and wasn't actually as good an aircraft as the soviets or NATO intelligence would have belived but how bad was it? I assume it was basically a US racing car. Goes AMAZINGLY FAST, just don't ask it to turn. Ever.

The MiG25 was not only fast, it was cheap for what it did, allowing the Russians to build close to a thousand. It put an end to the idea of fast high altittude aircraft penetrating soviet space. As a reconnaissance platform it was extremelybdificult to intercept when it entered service in 1970 as the israelis discovered. The bad rep it got comes from the bad use given to the export version, that combined the definitive PD frame with the old P version radar and were badly used.
Once the P fleet was updated to PDS standard the Russians got a very capable interceptor for their money, with a extremely useful Recce variant.
The interceptor version must not be compared to air superiority fighters, since it was never meant to be one.
There is no west equivalent. That would have been a 2nd generation DeltaDart, faster, with a much better radar and missiles.
 

sharlin

Banned
I read their engines were unreliable, I assume that was only if they opened the throttle for too long, that massive speed of theirs was only obtainable for short sprints rather than sustained bursts I'm guessing.
 
The R-15 engines used in the Foxbat were originally designed for use in the Tu-121, a recon drone somewhat analogous to the D-21. As a result, their useful life was somewhat limited, although this was improved somewhat in the later versions of the engine, such as the ones used in the MiG-25PD and -PDS versions.

The issue regarding the top speed was caused by the relationship between the engine and its fuel pumps. Apparently, at speeds around Mach 3-3.2, the force of the engine sucking in fuel would overcome the fuel pump's ability to regulate fuel flow, basically causing the engine to turn into a ramjet. This was a bad thing. The engines would basically enter a positive feedback loop and destroy themselves. As a result, the MiG-25 was normally limited to around Mach 2.85, which is a good bit to slow to catch an SR-71, and probably marginal to catch the B-70 in a high speed dash. Were the R-15 initially designed with better fuel pumps, the Foxbat in its initial configuration might have been capable of hitting Mach 3 without ripping itself to pieces.
 
What the heck was that???

EDITE: GET OUT

Yeah... I'm not even sure what I just read... I have a feeling that it does not have much to do with the Arrow...

EDIT: I read it. It seems to be going against the Arrow... Where's my torch and pitchfork...

EDIT EDIT: Ignore this please.
 
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Agreed with above. I'm sure in and of themselves davroslives's posts make for an interesting TL, but barging in someone else's TL and post a mini-TL in it without permission is, quite frankly, uncalled for. :cool:

Marc A
 

NothingNow

Banned
Looking at the info you provided, as well as other stuff I managed to find, the NK-25 looks like a damn good choice for our MiG-25 successor: about double the thrust of the R-15, reasonably close to the same size, and good fuel efficiency (it powers the Tu-22M OTL). Also, the Backfire had its first flight in 1969, with entry into service in 1972. Assuming that development for the Backfire proceeds roughly OTL, you could actually end up sticking the NK-25 into the super-Foxbat I postulated in option 2. Assuming an empty weight of around 22-23000 kg (slightly larger than the MiG-31), my calculations give a maximum T/W ratio of 1.26. Which is damn good for the early 70s (as well as being superior to the F-15C). The main issue I can see is how the NK-25 will perform at high mach numbers, considering that the airframe its designed for (Backfire) only goes up to around Mach 2. This can probably gotten around with clever intake design though, to get the incoming air down to subsonic before it enters the compressor section.
Yeah, the engine would need a few tweaks for that, and would allow for a switch over to a variable cycle later on, to improve performance at altitude (and possibly even score a more modern T/W ratio. Also, the T/W ratio for a NK-25 powered Super Foxbat is damned impressive now, and at the time, only an English Electric Lightning could really match it, while it'd be right around 1.0 at MTOW, and maybe 1.05 loaded for an interception mission. That'd help improve

I'm not entirely sure that thrust vectoring capabilities are entirely within the capabilities of Soviet aircraft design in the late 60s/early 70s. Besides, I'm not entirely sure they'd even be necessary.
It was well within their means back then. (It's pretty much a pre-requisite on any VTOL design, and easier to fit on a regular jet,) and it would shorten take-off and landing runs fairly significantly, and improve maneuverability at low level, and handling at high altitude, particularly past 60,000 feet.


This hypothetical MiG-25 variant (25X?) isn't going to be screwing around down low shooting R-60s at A-4s and F-16s, it's going to sit at high altitude 50+ km off, shooting long range SARH missiles at B-52s, B-1s, and the like. Although I do agree that it would need more turning ability than the Foxbat has in OTL, at least to be able to get out of dodge if it gets jumped by a couple of Phantoms or Falcons at low altitude. I think that can be covered under using better materials and making some improvements to general construction practices (when examining the MiG-25 in 1976, it was found that the aircraft was hand-welded and had exposed rivet heads in some areas).
Well, yes, definitely, but It's a big beast that'll probably get into a turning fight with escorts every once in a while, and a stronger frame capable of handling a turning fight without being a write-off, would also allow the airframe to survive a few decades of service in kinda shitty conditions. And improvements to it's electronics would help when the US goes for ECM, while the improvements to it's controls and a HMCS would help in it's interception role.

With regards to using a better missile rather than a faster aircraft, I agree with the sentiment that a better missile is going to be extremely useful, however putting the firing aircraft at a higher speed and altitude is going to provide an advantage. To put it simply, the more kinetic energy the launching aircraft gives a missile, the less the missile has to spend catching up to the target and climbing toward it. As a result, the missile is going to be able to maneuver better, as well as engage at a longer range. Conversely, an aircraft with better speed and altitude capabilities is going to be harder to hit, especially in a tail chase situation.
Well, yes. That wasn't a disagreement. Interceptors have to operate as a combined system. You can't just look at one portion of the equation.

Might it be worthwhile to contact Ian and get those posts removed? They really have nothing to do with Ming's timeline, and somewhat disrupt the flow of the thread.
Yep. That's what the report button's for.
 

Ming777

Monthly Donor
1965

At the middle of the 60s, Canada was once again poised for another year of the Cold War, international conflicts, and other events.

At New Years Eve, the images of CF-105 Arrows flying over Parliament Hill with the new Canadian Flag on their tails captured many people's attention as well as the media. In the United States, storms gathered as many people began to compare the McDonnell Phantom II with the Avro Arrow. Both planes were seeing service in their respective nations of origin as well as a number of export customers. However, quite a few nations had bought Arrows instead, and many were envious of the success of Avro Canada.

At sea, with the standoff between Greece and Turkey over Cyrpus, HMCS Bonaventure and an escort group of destroyers and supply vessels departed Halifax on January 20 for the Mediterranean. Joining the Bonnie was the relatively new helicopter destroyer HMCS Nipigon, two St. Laurent class DDEs, three Restigouche-class DDEs, along with two Royal Navy Type 12 (Leander) frigates, as well as HMCS Provider, the first auxiliary oiler replenishment ship of the Royal Canadian Navy.

On January 26, Lyndon B. Johnson was sworn in for his own full term as U.S. President. He would come to have a very complicated relationship with Prime Minister Pearson, which would briefly spill over to their immediate successors. Both were rather cordial during their visit to London, where many statesmen arrived for the state funeral of Sir Winston S. Churchill, who was regarded as one of the greatest wartime leaders of the century.


In February, there was an uproar as the government announced that they had selected the Northrop F-5 Freedom Fighter as the basis of the new fighter jet to replace the venerable Canadair Sabres that had served the RCAF since the Korean War, as well as serve as trainer aircraft. 300 CF-5As and 120 CF-5Bs were to be assembled by Canadair, but there would be significant differences between the Canadian aircraft and the original design. Canadian built avionics, including a scaled down version of the Arrow's revolutionary fly-by-wire controls, an adaption of the Hughes radar system, a refueling-probe, and improved air intakes were implemented into the design. The planes would be powered by a scaled down drivative of the PS.13 Iroquois turbojet, designated the PS.12 Nootka by Orenda Engines. Two such turbojets were to power the CF-5, which would gain the name "Flechette" in RCAF service.

February 15 saw the official adoption of the Red and White National Flag of Canada with the raising of the flag at Parliament Hill. Longtime opponent of the flag, John Diefenbaker was conspicuously absent from the proceedings.

March saw tension between India and Pakistan erupt in a series of bloody skirmishes, risking escalation into an all out war. Neighboring nations grow concerned by the developments. Intent on taking on the primarily-American fighter jet fleet of the Pakistanis, Indian Air Force officials began to have discreet talks with representatives of Avro Canada about the Avro as well as the Flechette. However, such negotiations would not be completed before the standoff boiled over...

April saw the first major protests in Washington DC against the US involvement in Vietnam. At around this time, regular night time flights began from Avro Canada's facility in Malton to a restricted area in Nevada. By the end of the year, at least 12 flights disappeared into the massive complex at Area 51...

In the middle of 1965, a major curveball sent shockwaves throughout the military aviation community. The Federal Republic of German, AKA West Germany decided to buy Canadian aircraft for the Luftwaffe. Alot of Canadian aircraft. To replace the controversial fleet of Lockheed F-104 Starfighters, the Luftwaffe announced on June 15 that talks began with Avro Canada to purchase a minumum of 150 Arrows, with the exact numbers and variants to be negotiated over the following year. Plans were to begin sending Luftwaffe pilots to RCAF Cold Lake for transition training with 441 Squadron, joining pilots from other new operators of the Arrow. Test pilots from the Luftwaffe were evidently impressed by the Avro Arrow's performance, and with production costs continuously decreasing, the Canadian-built interceptor was seen as a reasonable alternative to buying American Phantom IIs.

Also in July, four F-4C Phantom IIs gain the dubious honor of being the first aircraft ever targeted by surface to air missiles. A few boastful (and drunk) Arrows pilots subsequently claimed that had they been in the situation, they would have just went full A/B and outrun the missiles in the much faster planes. By the end of July, Lyndon B. Johnson announces an escalation of US Operations in Vietnam and double the draft.

August saw the launch of Gemini 5 which carries a joint Canadian-American crew of two. But this news is overshadowed as the fighting in India and Pakistan blows up and becomes a full-out war, though neither side gains much over the other. Throughout the end of August and the rest of the year, the two nations fight a war of attrition, though it was largely contained due to pressure from both the United States and the Soviet Union. Canada offers to serves as a neutral ground for negotiations, though Pakistan initially refuses, suspicious of possible agreements between Canadian companies and the Indian government.

Avro Canada has largely completed its original Canadian orders for the CF-105 Arrow, with major export customers largely manufacturing their own liscensed aircraft. Saudi Araia announced an intent to purchase 16 more Arrows, while Israel received 16 old Arrows from 419 Squadron RCAF in August and ordered 16 new aircraft. Israeli engineers had taken two Arrows and opened up them to see how to improve the aircraft and to modify them for combat in the middle-east against its Arab neighbors. Discreet meetings between Saudi and Israeli officials made it clear that they would try to avoid fighting each, though the Saudis indicated the other Arab nations were not likely to listen to their advice.

With wars in Southeast and South Asia, Canada was watching such conflicts with great concerns, and with tensions rising in the Middle-East and elsewhere, 1966 was expected to see further escalation.
 
Will the General Purpose Frigate be built in this timeline? Also, did the Bobcat APC enter production, or was it cancelled? On the latest installment of the timeline itself, I find it very nice that the Avro Arrow is doing so well on the international market. Perhaps Avro Canada could get involved with Grumman in developing the F-14 Tomcat.
 
Will the General Purpose Frigate be built in this timeline? Also, did the Bobcat APC enter production, or was it cancelled? On the latest installment of the timeline itself, I find it very nice that the Avro Arrow is doing so well on the international market. Perhaps Avro Canada could get involved with Grumman in developing the F-14 Tomcat.

The General Purpose Frigate isn't a bad design, but as a helicopter-carrying ship its fairly impractical, because the missile launcher's location makes the use of helicopters extremely difficult. The Bobcat would be an interesting idea if it was around sooner, but it might be better to focus the Bobcat on other duties and use the (rather larger) M113 for APC duties.
 

NothingNow

Banned
It lives! Is the Bonaventure still flying Banshees, or have they been retired in favor of Skyhawks or something?
The General Purpose Frigate isn't a bad design, but as a helicopter-carrying ship its fairly impractical, because the missile launcher's location makes the use of helicopters extremely difficult.

Yeah, it's pretty bad positioning for that, (really a Mk 10/11 or Mk 13 launcher on the bow would be much better.) Good place for an ASROC matchbox though.
 
It lives! Is the Bonaventure still flying Banshees, or have they been retired in favor of Skyhawks or something?


Yeah, it's pretty bad positioning for that, (really a Mk 10/11 or Mk 13 launcher on the bow would be much better.) Good place for an ASROC matchbox though.

I would definitely think that they'd be flying Skyhawks or something by now, unless the Banshees have somehow been colossally upgraded in Canadian service. The F2H is a Korean-War era design, and straight winged.
 
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